rodheadlee Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 I was just checking out this situation between Russia and the United States and Ukraine when I came across this comment on the Washington Post. "Putin wiped the floor with the fake president. Now Putin is equivocating because Biden is much smarter, tougher and careful than you know who" It's strange I see the exact opposite. I believe during Biden's Administration Russia will attack Ukraine and China will attack Taiwan. That's because of the Fallout from the method of withdrawal from Afghanistan. I wonder if the way people see things exactly opposite has much to do with turmoil in the church, among the members? What causes such a polarizing viewpoint? Is it nurture or nature or what? Try to keep politics out of the discussion.
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: I wonder if the way people see things exactly opposite has much to do with turmoil in the church, among the members? What causes such a polarizing viewpoint? Is it nurture or nature or what? Try to keep politics out of the discussion. We all see what our world view leads us to see. Changing our world view usually requires a major life event. Often a painful one but sometimes wonderful. Like the first time you realize God directly answered a prayer. View changing. Road to Damascus stuff. And you're kidding about keeping politics out right? Considering how you started the thread. 1
california boy Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 Could you possibly have thought up a more political thread to start that clearly breaks board rules? 3
rodheadlee Posted January 22, 2022 Author Posted January 22, 2022 Just now, california boy said: Could you possibly have thought up a more political thread to start that clearly breaks board rules? Sorry but it just struck me about how different our views are. I don't have another readily available example.
rodheadlee Posted January 22, 2022 Author Posted January 22, 2022 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: We all see what our world view leads us to see. Changing our world view usually requires a major life event. Often a painful one but sometimes wonderful. Like the first time you realize God directly answered a prayer. View changing. Road to Damascus stuff. And you're kidding about keeping politics out right? Considering how you started the thread. So that worldview comes from? Who raised us, where we lived, how do we get that worldview? My Views are quite different from my parents.
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: So that worldview comes from? Who raised us, where we lived, how do we get that worldview? My Views are quite different from my parents. Life experiences. All of them combined. Ethnicity, family, education, employment, religion, politics, income level....and all the others. 1
bsjkki Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 We do see things very differently. People think differently. This leads to cross talk and no meaningful interchange of ideas because we dismiss the other viewpoint. Neither side feels understood. So people feel attacked/vilified instead of understood. It’s very hard to really understand another’s worldview and even when we try really hard, our lived experiences are so different we end up with differing perspectives. 2
CV75 Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 58 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: I was just checking out this situation between Russia and the United States and Ukraine when I came across this comment on the Washington Post. "Putin wiped the floor with the fake president. Now Putin is equivocating because Biden is much smarter, tougher and careful than you know who" It's strange I see the exact opposite. I believe during Biden's Administration Russia will attack Ukraine and China will attack Taiwan. That's because of the Fallout from the method of withdrawal from Afghanistan. I wonder if the way people see things exactly opposite has much to do with turmoil in the church, among the members? What causes such a polarizing viewpoint? Is it nurture or nature or what? Try to keep politics out of the discussion. I think it is both nature and nurture, and these contribute to the perception and opposition necessary to make correct choices along the continuum of our moral conscience and the covenant path, depending on how much light you have. Polarizing viewpoints can reconcile and becomes unified in Christ. Of course there's a polarizing view to Christ, also, but that's agency for you and He's big enough to allow it. 1
strappinglad Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 I used to think that no person was going to " look at the noon-day sun and claim it was night ". I have now lived long enough to recognize that such folks are quite prevalent in this world. A common phrase I see now is " it is much easier to fool a person , than to convince them they have been fooled ". 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I was just checking out this situation between Russia and the United States and Ukraine when I came across this comment on the Washington Post. "Putin wiped the floor with the fake president. Now Putin is equivocating because Biden is much smarter, tougher and careful than you know who" It's strange I see the exact opposite. I believe during Biden's Administration Russia will attack Ukraine and China will attack Taiwan. That's because of the Fallout from the method of withdrawal from Afghanistan. We shall see whether either of your specific predictions come true. And, by the way, I have seen just such a prediction elsewhere, but by someone who has a track record of making false predictions. 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I wonder if the way people see things exactly opposite has much to do with turmoil in the church, among the members? What causes such a polarizing viewpoint? Is it nurture or nature or what? Try to keep politics out of the discussion. We should try to keep from injecting politics into religion. Religion of any kind. There is already too much of that sort of thing being bandied about by people who have no knowledge or training in that area. When people play guessing games, as with gambling in a casino, they are going to make random assertions -- with no real evidence in support. These are the same people who frequently buy lottery tickets.
rodheadlee Posted January 23, 2022 Author Posted January 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: We shall see whether either of your specific predictions come true. And, by the way, I have seen just such a prediction elsewhere, but by someone who has a track record of making false predictions. They are sending the families of the diplomats home from Ukraine. They suggest civilians seek commercial flights out. 1
The Nehor Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 I hope not. There are a lot of ways China could pressure Taiwan outside of full invasion and these are more likely. Reuters tried to wargame some of them out: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/taiwan-china-wargames/ China takes a serious risk with all of these options. A serious enough defeat (economic, diplomatic, or military) would weaken the party’s hold on China and could even topple it. And if they go full invasion it is by no means an easy knock-out victory: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/13/a-full-chinese-invasion-of-taiwan-will-be-hard-says-ministry It would end up being a naval knife fight in a small area with Taiwan having the home ground advantage of whatever missile and guns it can hide from initial air attacks. The problem in wargaming a scenario like this is that there is no parallel to study. The last time we saw an amphibious conflict involving mostly symmetrical military forces was the Falklands War but that was very different as neither side could easily deploy their air assets to best and neither side had a deep advantage since the Falklands didn’t have the infrastructure to resist an invasion. It was also a long time ago. We don’t know what would be the results of a modern conflict in such a confined area. How well will electronic warfare work in that environment? Can China get its ships to shore before they are disabled? How will the developments in naval war pan out in an active conflict? Will US and Japanese submarines be effective weapons in hurting such an invasion or sitting ducks? Can US carrier groups get close enough to the theater to have an impact without being destroyed by Chinese air and submarine attacks? If the Chinese get ashore it won’t be like D-Day. Taiwan has big terrain advantages with cliffs overlooking a lot of the best invasion sites and heavy tree cover not too far from shore. It would be a bloodbath. As to Russia invading the Ukraine, yeah, absent NATO support the nation will fall quickly. They would probably be foolish to fight. Then the insurgency starts and it will almost certainly make the little semi-coup we just saw in Kazakhstan look small by comparison. If NATO does intervene it becomes a game of brinksmanship. If it comes to open conflict NATO will probably ‘win’ but since winning in this instance could also mean nuclear exchanges winning is the second-worst outcome in that situation topped only by losing. My read of the situation is that Biden and Schulz are playing a bit of “good cop, bad cop”. I was hoping the Russian ‘peacekeeping’ mission in Kazakhstan would hobble the Russians a bit but it appears to be resolved. It might flare up again though if Putin is distracted. Also while there are things to complain about regarding the Afghanistan withdrawal it was never going to end well. It has been almost twenty years and the military there was not willing to fight for a government the locals don’t believe in. One reportedly leaked conversation from the White House was the President asking if these factors were likely to change in any way. Reportedly no one had a good answer. Maybe if we had gone with the British recommendation back when the conflict began to bring the warlords and the more moderate elements in the Taliban in to form some kind of coalition government something better could have been built but the ship had sailed on that option decades ago. Sorry, I am a geopolitical nerd and a military simulation/wargaming nerd. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 31 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: They are sending the families of the diplomats home from Ukraine. They suggest civilians seek commercial flights out. Good idea. After all, Putin has invaded and annexed parts of the Ukraine before. 1
The Nehor Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 Oh, and of course we need the obligatory joke about Ukraine. I’ll do the honors. “You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw 1
bsjkki Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 I’ve read Putin wants to put in a puppet government in Ukraine. I’ve read opinions, that NATO seems to think this is fine. An illusion of independence.
Tacenda Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 6 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Sorry but it just struck me about how different our views are. I don't have another readily available example. I go by moral behaviours and integrity, someone who is honest and who's thoughts are on helping others, not on making the most money and always winning no matter who gets hurt.
The Nehor Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 36 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I’ve read Putin wants to put in a puppet government in Ukraine. I’ve read opinions, that NATO seems to think this is fine. An illusion of independence. Putin wants a more pro-Russian government that rejoins the CIS. The CIS is a looser version of the old USSR and includes most of the same states. Turkmenistan is only halfway in. Incidentally Turkmenistan is the state competing hardest with North Korea for winning the “worst authoritarian hellhole” prize. Ukraine withdrew following the conflict with Russia in 2014 when Crimea was occupied. Losing Ukraine was a severe blow since it is the birthplace of the Kiev Rus, considered (mostly correctly) to be the ancestor of modern Russia (ironically led by Rurik, a Viking). Later the capitol moved to St. Petersburg and later Moscow but the cultural importance of Kiev is still strong and Putin echoes earlier leaders by calling Ukraine “little Russia”. Putin isn’t happy about how fragmented the states of the old USSR have become but most of the republics still take policy cues from Moscow. Lately Putin has been losing influence in some of the Baltic republics which has made Russia cagey. Ukraine has gone much further and is pursuing pro-west policies and has flirted with joining the EU and NATO. About a third of the population considers themselves Russian. The Ukrainian leadership is now mostly from the other areas and is a weird coalition. A lot of the Ukrainian military is made up of old militias ranging from basic ethnic nationalists to full on Nazi ethnic nationalists. Hitler would have laughed hearing Ukrainians coopting his philosophies about their race. Putin has a few possible objectives. He might want to annex parts of Ukraine into Russia and of course, bring Ukraine back into alignment with Moscow. He might be happy with just a puppet government in Moscow or even just a friendlier one even if it is not a full puppet regime. A lot of the Baltic states are watching this carefully. They know that NATO is their only chance if Russia gets expansionistic. Finland is not part of NATO and has a long history of fighting off Russian aggression. Ukraine is also the breadbasket of the area and a conflict that cuts off Ukrainian grain will lead to disruptions throughout Asia, Europe, and even Africa (Russia, China, Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Malaysia, and Indonesia import a lot of their grain). My sympathies lie with the Ukrainians. While their government is NOT a shining example of modern democracy and liberalism it is better than where even more authoritarian Russia is at. At the same time how far do you push to defend Kiev when London, Paris, Berline, and Washington D.C. have the potential to become targets? I don’t understand the weird shift I am hearing of US commentators preferring Russia to win out and bring Ukraine back into the fold. Traitorous weirdos. 3
bsjkki Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Putin wants a more pro-Russian government that rejoins the CIS. The CIS is a looser version of the old USSR and includes most of the same states. Turkmenistan is only halfway in. Incidentally Turkmenistan is the state competing hardest with North Korea for winning the “worst authoritarian hellhole” prize. Ukraine withdrew following the conflict with Russia in 2014 when Crimea was occupied. Losing Ukraine was a severe blow since it is the birthplace of the Kiev Rus, considered (mostly correctly) to be the ancestor of modern Russia (ironically led by Rurik, a Viking). Later the capitol moved to St. Petersburg and later Moscow but the cultural importance of Kiev is still strong and Putin echoes earlier leaders by calling Ukraine “little Russia”. Putin isn’t happy about how fragmented the states of the old USSR have become but most of the republics still take policy cues from Moscow. Lately Putin has been losing influence in some of the Baltic republics which has made Russia cagey. Ukraine has gone much further and is pursuing pro-west policies and has flirted with joining the EU and NATO. About a third of the population considers themselves Russian. The Ukrainian leadership is now mostly from the other areas and is a weird coalition. A lot of the Ukrainian military is made up of old militias ranging from basic ethnic nationalists to full on Nazi ethnic nationalists. Hitler would have laughed hearing Ukrainians coopting his philosophies about their race. Putin has a few possible objectives. He might want to annex parts of Ukraine into Russia and of course, bring Ukraine back into alignment with Moscow. He might be happy with just a puppet government in Moscow or even just a friendlier one even if it is not a full puppet regime. A lot of the Baltic states are watching this carefully. They know that NATO is their only chance if Russia gets expansionistic. Finland is not part of NATO and has a long history of fighting off Russian aggression. Ukraine is also the breadbasket of the area and a conflict that cuts off Ukrainian grain will lead to disruptions throughout Asia, Europe, and even Africa (Russia, China, Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Malaysia, and Indonesia import a lot of their grain). My sympathies lie with the Ukrainians. While their government is NOT a shining example of modern democracy and liberalism it is better than where even more authoritarian Russia is at. At the same time how far do you push to defend Kiev when London, Paris, Berline, and Washington D.C. have the potential to become targets? I don’t understand the weird shift I am hearing of US commentators preferring Russia to win out and bring Ukraine back into the fold. Traitorous weirdos. I’m with you on this. I’m with the Ukrainians. I think we are at point Putin thinks he can get away with something though. Edited January 23, 2022 by bsjkki 1
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