Is it bad to be rich?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, BRMC said:

They are crazy expensive.   We got each a new lego set this year among their gifts.   Luckily the one child that loves legos also loves to be creative with them.  We have a huge bin full of legos and he's into creating his own things now, even after the intended creation has been long since destroyed.

I wish…mine like sets, build and don’t touch.  I have legos from my youth (benefits of helping parents move is first dibs on toys) that aren’t being touched.   However, if our renovation gets done according to plan, my too small bedroom will become a toy room with lots and lots of shelves and a place to build a city instead of the legos having to share space in a windowless storage room….carpeted nicely, but what kid wants to spend their time in a wannabe cave….real cave, sure.  And since you can’t see the floor when carrying boxes in and out, legos have to be put away every single time…not enough time to build the cool stuff.

Well, I am just back to starting to shop in January like I used to when money was tight.  If they get used with the new setup, I think I am going to invest in Technic.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Calm

[Stargazer]

55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You think we will have gun hoarders in the Millenium? Why?

Will all hobby pursuits be banned in the Millennium? Some people, including people who never ever go hunting, own firearms for the specific purpose of target shooting. Must the very expensive target rifles and pistols be melted down, too?

May I still fly my drone in the Millennium?

I am living in the UK, where people can own rifles and shotguns (not handguns), but only after jumping through a very long series of hoops. And the only two excuses for owning a firearm are: (1) to hunt; and (2) to target shoot. If you put "self defense" on your application it will automatically be denied. I don't know about the regs for when someone goes hunting, but to target shoot you must go to a legally registered firing range (whose club you must belong to), and every round you bring in or buy there will be counted (and you can only buy ammo at these clubs), and every round you shoot will likewise be counted. If you own a firearm, you must have two safes, one for the firearm, and one for the ammo. Nobody, including if you're married, your spouse, is allowed to have access -- he or she must not know the combination (I suppose, if your spouse has a firearms permit then you can share the safes, but I have no idea if this is the case). At any time you may be inspected by a special police officer who may arrive at any time to check if your arsenal is still being kept safe. He won't need a warrant, because you signed that away with the firearms licence. 

I'm pretty sure this kind of draconian firearms law is exactly the kind of "common sense gun law" that some people want.

But even in the UK there are people who enjoy shooting clay pigeons and poking holes in paper from a few hundred feet away.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, BRMC said:

I don't know what's going to happen.  I just can't foresee a return of Christ that results in people crying because they have to get rid of firearms.  Can you?

Yes.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Will all hobby pursuits be banned in the Millennium? Some people, including people who never ever go hunting, own firearms for the specific purpose of target shooting. Must the very expensive target rifles and pistols be melted down, too?

May I still fly my drone in the Millennium?

I am living in the UK, where people can own rifles and shotguns (not handguns), but only after jumping through a very long series of hoops. And the only two excuses for owning a firearm are: (1) to hunt; and (2) to target shoot. If you put "self defense" on your application it will automatically be denied. I don't know about the regs for when someone goes hunting, but to target shoot you must go to a legally registered firing range (whose club you must belong to), and every round you bring in or buy there will be counted (and you can only buy ammo at these clubs), and every round you shoot will likewise be counted. If you own a firearm, you must have two safes, one for the firearm, and one for the ammo. Nobody, including if you're married, your spouse, is allowed to have access -- he or she must not know the combination (I suppose, if your spouse has a firearms permit then you can share the safes, but I have no idea if this is the case). At any time you may be inspected by a special police officer who may arrive at any time to check if your arsenal is still being kept safe. He won't need a warrant, because you signed that away with the firearms licence. 

I'm pretty sure this kind of draconian firearms law is exactly the kind of "common sense gun law" that some people want.

But even in the UK there are people who enjoy shooting clay pigeons and poking holes in paper from a few hundred feet away.

I don’t think all hobby pursuits will be banned but I have my doubts target shooting will survive and I don’t think hunting will be a thing and pretty sure self-defense won’t be a thing. Maybe Terrestrial beings are better at being careful and it wouldn’t be a problem to keep them and result in pointless deaths. Maybe terrestrial beings are immune to death by firearms and it won’t be a problem. If kids are playing with poisonous snakes maybe guns are safe too. i don’t know.

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t see the appeal of large amounts of guns in the here and now to be clear.  I have heard some crazy reasoning for them and I am not certain adjustment to Christ governing in the Millennium will be sweetly smooth rather than rather confusing and tumultuous at the beginning, but would love it to be that way,

Jay Leno has a huge garage full of cars, and I don't see the appeal of that. An old high school friend of mine has a large collection of vintage wines. He is quite the connoisseur, and doesn't drink to excess. Maybe the Word of Wisdom will be made optional in the Millennium, since people will be more rational and only drink socially and not to get drunk. 

What is a "large amount" of guns? I own ten firearms, but of course they are 4,000 miles away from where I am now, so do me little good. Do I have too many? Feel free to say "Yes" because it won't offend me, but if you do, please tell me why you think I don't need them.

 

[BRMC]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes.

I can't.   We probably have very different views on the millennium, then.

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think all hobby pursuits will be banned but I have my doubts target shooting will survive and I don’t think hunting will be a thing and pretty sure self-defense won’t be a thing. Maybe Terrestrial beings are better at being careful and it wouldn’t be a problem to keep them and result in pointless deaths. Maybe terrestrial beings are immune to death by firearms and it won’t be a problem. If kids are playing with poisonous snakes maybe guns are safe too. i don’t know.

Why would you doubt target shooting survives? People here in the UK have virtually no other use for firearms except for target shooting, and yet some people will go through a huge amount of expense and trouble to be able to do so. Granted, target shooting has its roots in self-defense and hunting (and war), but I've known target shooters who would be horrified if they inadvertently hurt an animal while shooting.

I suspect that people will still be able to die by accident in the Millennium. I also suspect that much of the language used in scripture to describe how peaceful it will be in the Millennium is figurative and not literal. Lions and lambs lying down together? Will all predators then be vegetarians? It sounds like an ecology gone wrong, with spiders spinning webs to catch dandelion seeds flying through the air. 

But maybe that's how it will be. I hope I live into it so I can see it happen!

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think all hobby pursuits will be banned but I have my doubts target shooting will survive and I don’t think hunting will be a thing and pretty sure self-defense won’t be a thing. Maybe Terrestrial beings are better at being careful and it wouldn’t be a problem to keep them and result in pointless deaths. Maybe terrestrial beings are immune to death by firearms and it won’t be a problem. If kids are playing with poisonous snakes maybe guns are safe too. i don’t know.

Why don't you think target shooting will survive?

[Fether]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What about the lazy rich? Why only focus on the lazy poor?

”the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer”

We can talk about that too 👍 that’s a problem too

[Fether]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

King Benjamin gave some advice on that point.

Yep! Which is why we can’t systematize it. Charity is developed individually, not by developing sustems 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Jay Leno has a huge garage full of cars, and I don't see the appeal of that. An old high school friend of mine has a large collection of vintage wines. He is quite the connoisseur, and doesn't drink to excess. Maybe the Word of Wisdom will be made optional in the Millennium, since people will be more rational and only drink socially and not to get drunk. 

What is a "large amount" of guns? I own ten firearms, but of course they are 4,000 miles away from where I am now, so do me little good. Do I have too many? Feel free to say "Yes" because it won't offend me, but if you do, please tell me why you think I don't need them.

 

I don’t have a problem with people who collect them as ‘things’.  Or even target shooting if kept very safe. That is just a hobby. Many hobbies are dangerous, including several I would be doing if my health and head cooperated, but I doubt I can handle heights these days.
 

 My problem is when they foresee a need to use large amounts of guns (as in more than one hand gun and one rifle for each adult) for defense or offense now or in the future, talk about arming themselves. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Calm

[Eph2,8]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hugh Nibley once made the point that if we invented a device that actually measured the physical and mental effort everyone put into their jobs so we could truly pay based on actual merit the jig would be up.

In a market system people are not paid by how much effort they put in, but by how much value they add. I can bust my butt every day, expending as much physical and mental effort as I can, but I will likely not add as much value as Jeff Bezos. To close the gap between our pay, one would either need to pay me more than the value I add to society and pay him less than what he adds.  Both seem unjust at face value, and I'm not sure that Mr. Nibley accomplishes what he was hoping for in that quote. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I wish…mine like sets, build and don’t touch.  I have legos from my youth (benefits of helping parents move is first dibs on toys) that aren’t being touched.   However, if our renovation gets done according to plan, my too small bedroom will become a toy room with lots and lots of shelves and a place to build a city instead of the legos having to share space in a windowless storage room….carpeted nicely, but what kid wants to spend their time in a wannabe cave….real cave, sure.  And since you can’t see the floor when carrying boxes in and out, legos have to be put away every single time…not enough time to build the cool stuff.

Well, I am just back to starting to shop in January like I used to when money was tight.  If they get used with the new setup, I think I am going to invest in Technic.

My granddaughter likes Legos and we built some things today. I wasn't a big Lego person growing up but my little brother was hooked and in his early teens he would play and if someone came to the front door he would quickly hide them under the couch as if he was embarrassed to play with them at his age. 

[kimpearson]

Just an observation about money after spending my whole professional life reporting on and managing it including hundreds of millions of dollars (not mine but entrusted to me).  Spending a significant amount of time helping others manage money or reporting how much they made to the government.  Money use and attitude toward money is the best indicator of the gospel gifts of faith, hope and charity.  When we stand before God and judge ourselves, much of that judgement will align with how we used and our attitude toward money.  The problem with having a lot of money is that there is so many things you can do with it that are both good and bad.  Most of us don't have a large excess of money so our test is our attitude to what money we have and the money others have around us.   I was so close to having a lot of money but I had to make a choice between money and the sanity of my wife.  I choose my wife but that thought of the money I could have had still bangs around inside of my head.

The Church has over $100 billion in excess investments.  It faces the exact same challenge, how will it use this money and what is the attitude toward it.  I believe the choice of Church leaders on how to use those funds will determine in a major way, the growth and readiness of the Church for the second coming.

[mbh26]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:15 AM, The Nehor said:

My reason wants to agree with you but then:

I guess the disciples agreed with my first reaction. It was greatly astonishing when Jesus smashed the idea that the wealthy are playing the game with the same rules.

I suspect it has something to do with why those people self destructed in vice. I would put the probability at about 70% that if I lived in an age without any real concept of mental health care that I would be a drug addict, an alcoholic, or dead by now from frenzied attempts to get my stupid brain to SHUT UP! Or maybe I would have focused on other coping mechanisms. They are pretty much all sins in my experience.

Also I say this as someone who will likely be low-tier rich at some point so I am going to have to try to stick that camel (or anchor rope if you go with the theory that camel was a bad copy of the original) through that stupid needle.

I remember in a BYU New Testament religion class the professor said that the "eye of the needle," was the entrance to the temple.  To get through such a short entrance passage, the camel had to get on its knees.  So qualifying to enter the kingdom of Heaven was a question of humility not a question of financial status.  

So just so I understand you correctly, you're saying that someone who basically refuses to work most of his life and gets on perpetual SSI/disability for mild unspecified back pain before reaching his 30th birthday has a better chance of entering the Celestial Kingdom than an lds millionaire whose parents paid his medical school (so not entirely self made) paid his tithing but didn't give anything else beyond that?  Is that really what Jesus was saying in your opinion?  

Edited December 31, 2021 by mbh26

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

I remember in a BYU New Testament religion class the professor said that the "eye of the needle," was the entrance to the temple.  To get through such a short entrance passage, the camel had to get on its knees.  So qualifying to enter the kingdom of Heaven was a question of humility not a question of financial status.

I like how the EotN got bigger over time.

The gate was made for men and was narrow, as well as short. The camels had to be unloaded first and the ones that could fit would squeeze thru with difficulty. Few camel owners felt it was worth the effort.

[mbh26]

On 12/28/2021 at 11:58 PM, poptart said:

Just how common is it out there to live on a sailboat?  Is it affordable?  I watch youtube videos of people living in them year round.  Part of me is envious till I see them getting caught in a storm while out at sea.

I saw plenty of early retirees who took that route back in NOLA.  I think it's a good deal if you don't have much interest in modern medicine when your body starts to break down.  Some people just ferry others around the Carribean.  

I had a friend who worked as a maid on a billionaire's yacht.  They would spend a couple weeks cleaning a 20 square foot section of a wall, picking at fine grains of sand with toothpicks.  Then an inspector would come by with a white glove and shriek if she were to find a piece of dust on the wall.  She said it paid well but she couldn't stand it.  It was such a waste of resources.  But IMO, the fact that a few people like this billionaire exist doesn't mean we'd be much better off as individuals on average if we were to execute this man and redistribute his wealth. 

[Chum]

10 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

So just so I understand you correctly, you're saying that someone who basically refuses to work most of his life and gets on SSI/disability for mild unspecified back pain before his 30th birthday has a better chance of entering the Celestial Kingdom than a lds millionaire whose parents paid his medical school (so not entirely self made) paid his tithing but didn't give anything else beyond that?  Is that really what Jesus was saying in your opinion?  

Jesus' teaching were kind of the opposite of manufactured scenarios that could be used to bog down principles. They were principles.

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

But IMO, the fact that a few people like this billionaire exist doesn't mean we'd be much better off as individuals on average if we were to execute this man and redistribute his wealth. 

Oh hey if you're looking to execute someone I absolutely have the guy for you.

[Chum]

32 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

I remember in a BYU New Testament religion class the professor said that the "eye of the needle," was the entrance to the temple.  To get through such a short entrance passage, the camel had to get on its knees.  So qualifying to enter the kingdom of Heaven was a question of humility not a question of financial status.  

Christ understands how difficult it is for regular people to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. But here he makes a point of addressing the additional pitfalls that go along with being wealthy and how they ratchet that difficulty way up toward impossible.

The conclusion seems to be that we are counseled to avoid taking on those additional, spiritually pointless risks.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Eph2,8 said:

In a market system people are not paid by how much effort they put in, but by how much value they add. I can bust my butt every day, expending as much physical and mental effort as I can, but I will likely not add as much value as Jeff Bezos. To close the gap between our pay, one would either need to pay me more than the value I add to society and pay him less than what he adds.  Both seem unjust at face value, and I'm not sure that Mr. Nibley accomplishes what he was hoping for in that quote. 

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I remember in a BYU New Testament religion class the professor said that the "eye of the needle," was the entrance to the temple.  To get through such a short entrance passage, the camel had to get on its knees.  So qualifying to enter the kingdom of Heaven was a question of humility not a question of financial status.  

So just so I understand you correctly, you're saying that someone who basically refuses to work most of his life and gets on perpetual SSI/disability for mild unspecified back pain before reaching his 30th birthday has a better chance of entering the Celestial Kingdom than an lds millionaire whose parents paid his medical school (so not entirely self made) paid his tithing but didn't give anything else beyond that?  Is that really what Jesus was saying in your opinion?  

The eye of the needle being a Jerusalem gate you had to crawl under was invented by a medieval priest to make his wealthy congregation feel better. There is nothing backing up the idea. Also if that was what Jesus was talking about then why were the disciples “astonished”?

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Why don't you think target shooting will survive?

I was making a joke about beating swords and other weapons into plowshares. Somehow target shooting came along and people insisting on keeping their gun collection in the Millenium.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

Yep! Which is why we can’t systematize it. Charity is developed individually, not by developing sustems 

I am not trying to systematize the “pure love of Christ”. What are you talking about?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is nothing backing up the idea.

Wiki has listed examples of it being an aphorism clearly about a needle from the Talmud and Quran…I think I like the elephant through a needle example even more.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Wiki has listed examples of it being an aphorism clearly about a needle from the Talmud and Quran…I think I like the elephant through a needle example even more.

I suspect it was originally putting a ship anchor rope through the eye of a needle. Camel and huge rope are similar words. It is still saying it is impossible.