Boy Scouts, Church Pay into Settlement Fund for Abuse Victims

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hindsight is 20/20, so LDS and BSA now have strong two-deep policies (two adults with any lone kid).  In the past, the LDS Church did not track known offenders, foolishly thinking that confession and repentance were enough.  Instead of reporting sexual abuse to the police, some thought that a call to SLC or dealing with it in house would be adequate.  Once again, the height of foolishness.  Several millions in tithing later it became apparent that such policies just did not work.  A learning curve gets even steeper with denial of the problem.  Repentance and forgiveness are fine, as long as the predator goes to prison and is excommunicated.

I think this podcast is right up that alley, IMO. https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/258-taking-the-mormons-to-court-defending-sexual-abuse-victims-agains-the-lds-church-tim-kosnoff/?fbclid=IwAR0KZyWm0yyY0iIWdY5Rzl9AsCGiT_i76FSfL_2Sf2zTZI7Ovc8D-vGHSCg

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not persuaded this is a good analogy. You might “feel a level of responsibility,” but that all by itself would not warrant such an assumption. 

Where does it end? Bad actors are a part of life, yet society functions largely and unavoidably on trust. Is a parent necessarily responsible for unforeseeable wrongs that might befall his child at school, such as bullying by students, faculty or administrators? 
 

I’m not opposed to the Church out of a sense of benevolence paying into the fund, but without more information, I could not with certainty conclude this amounts to an admission of culpability in the part of the Church. 
 

 

As I said, this is how I look at it.  You can look at it however you want.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Terrible as in ???

The Abuse, Tacenda.  The Abuse.  My God, what is it with you, that you automatically assume the very worst of people you have never met and are unlikely ever to meet?  (Oh, I forgot.  It is only critics and skeptics to whom you give the benefit of an enormous doubt!      Fellow Saints?  Yeahhhhhh ... Not so much!   )

My bad!  Ah, well!  Carry on!

Edited September 16, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[poptart]

My understanding is while the LDS church was the biggest supporter of the boyscouts, those who were doing the bad things may not have been Latter Day Saints.  I would think it would have been less with you guys, from my experience LDS parents are more involved with their kids lives.  When I was in the scouts, depending on the troop it would be a glorified babysitter, perfect place for a sexual predator.  Did LDS troops have the same problems to the same degree?  Reason I ask, it's awesome the LDS church is stepping up to help the victims out but it does sounds like they are being left holding the bag and being tossed under the bus.  Someone mind educating me on this a bit?  

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, poptart said:

My understanding is while the LDS church was the biggest supporter of the boyscouts, those who were doing the bad things may not have been Latter Day Saints.  I would think it would have been less with you guys, from my experience LDS parents are more involved with their kids lives.  When I was in the scouts, depending on the troop it would be a glorified babysitter, perfect place for a sexual predator.  Did LDS troops have the same problems to the same degree?  Reason I ask, it's awesome the LDS church is stepping up to help the victims out but it does sounds like they are being left holding the bag and being tossed under the bus.  Someone mind educating me on this a bit?  

I'm thinking there were many LDS doing the abusing. My personal experience is of a scout leader that my dad worked with that was caught sexually abusing boys and put in prison. My dad would always worry when he was on scout trips because this man was very careless with their well being. ETA: This man was a LDS family man and very active in the church. But I've no idea what percentage of LDS scout leaders that abused. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think this podcast is right up that alley, IMO. https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/258-taking-the-mormons-to-court-defending-sexual-abuse-victims-agains-the-lds-church-tim-kosnoff/?fbclid=IwAR0KZyWm0yyY0iIWdY5Rzl9AsCGiT_i76FSfL_2Sf2zTZI7Ovc8D-vGHSCg

Official LDS Church policy is here: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/get-help/abuse/protecting-members-and-reporting-abuse?lang=eng (Protecting Members and Reporting Abuse)

 

[poptart]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm thinking there were many LDS doing the abusing. My personal experience is of a scout leader that my dad worked with that was caught sexually abusing boys and put in prison. My dad would always worry when he was on scout trips because this man was very careless with their well being. ETA: This man was a LDS family man and very active in the church. But I've no idea what percentage of LDS scout leaders that abused. 

That's sad but considering human nature I'm not surprised.  Thanks.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The Abuse, Tacenda.  The Abuse.  My God, what is it with you, that you automatically assume the very worst of people you have never met and are unlikely ever to meet?  (Oh, I forgot.  It is only critics and skeptics to whom you give the benefit of an enormous doubt!      Fellow Saints?  Yeahhhhhh ... Not so much!   )

My bad!  Ah, well!  Carry on!

I apologized for my jumping to conclusion. 

[Tacenda]

I think the victims got robbed, no way is this enough compensation. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/boy-scouts-reach-settlements-with-insurers-mormons-over-sex-abuse-claims.html

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think the victims got robbed, no way is this enough compensation. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/boy-scouts-reach-settlements-with-insurers-mormons-over-sex-abuse-claims.html

Any Plaintiff who "gets robbed," as you put it, has a very poor attorney or attorneys.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

My understanding is while the LDS church was the biggest supporter of the boyscouts, those who were doing the bad things may not have been Latter Day Saints.  I would think it would have been less with you guys, from my experience LDS parents are more involved with their kids lives.  When I was in the scouts, depending on the troop it would be a glorified babysitter, perfect place for a sexual predator.  Did LDS troops have the same problems to the same degree?  Reason I ask, it's awesome the LDS church is stepping up to help the victims out but it does sounds like they are being left holding the bag and being tossed under the bus.  Someone mind educating me on this a bit?  

I don't have any personal or close second-hand exposure to the problem of sexual abuse occurring in Latter-day Saint troops.  While some may accuse me of wearing blinders or of wearing rose-colored glasses, my personal opinion is that while I am, of course, unprepared to say that such abuse never happened in Latter-day Saint troops, I think it was exceedingly rare.  In light of that, I think the contribution of the Church of Jesus Christ to the settlement is quite generous.

[poptart]

18 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have any personal or close second-hand exposure to the problem of sexual abuse occurring in Latter-day Saint troops.  While some may accuse me of wearing blinders or of wearing rose-colored glasses, my personal opinion is that while I am, of course, unprepared to say that such abuse never happened in Latter-day Saint troops, I think it was exceedingly rare.  In light of that, I think the contribution of the Church of Jesus Christ to the settlement is quite generous.

That's what I'm leaning towards.  People are people but geez, BSA aside it seems like you guys have beep propping up everyone else's things for a while now and catching all the heat for their screw ups.  Also, you're a hospice nurse, you get +5 rep points lol.

Yep, very, very generous.  Those kids who were harmed have a long, nasty road ahead of them, happy the church could help.  Know they helped me when I needed it.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

  Did LDS troops have the same problems to the same degree? 

Since most scout leaders were called to their positions rather than volunteered, that likely would lower the numbers of predators in positions of authority. 
 

Otoh, my personal experience and what I have heard reported from many is that Latter-day Saint leaders were less likely to be up on their training or following all the rules. In one case back in mid90s, a leader took my son’s group (11 boys in the group iirc, don’t know if they all went) out for an overnight camping trip by himself. I reported that it went against both BSA and the Church’s rules to the Bishop when I found out, but he just shrugged his shoulders and essentially said that the rules didn’t matter. I was furious, but at the time was unaware of what else I could do to prevent the trip. I really don’t understand why they just didn’t have a dad go along except that it might have required a second car (the leader had a massive van).  Thankfully no one was injured or otherwise harmed as far as I am aware. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Calm

[mgy401]

Press release from one of the victims’ committees

“Money” paragraph, if you’ll pardon the pun:

The TCC calls attention to major flaws contained in the proposed settlements. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is not paying reasonable compensation for the broad releases of the sexual abuse claims that occurred in local councils controlled by LDS. LDS had direct involvement in every aspect of the scouting program. If approved, the proposed settlement yields an average $3,000 payment for each claim. Instead, the TCC maintains that LDS is being handed a “get-out-of-jail card” in exchange for an unreasonably low sum.

So basically, the claimants’ position is that the Church owes money to all 82,500 BSA abuse victims; not just the 2,400 victims who were members of Mormon units. 

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, mgy401 said:

Press release from one of the victims’ committees

“Money” paragraph, if you’ll pardon the pun:

... So basically, the claimants’ position is that the Church owes money to all 82,500 BSA abuse victims; not just the 2,400 victims who were members of Mormon units. 

Of course.  If one is going to sue somebody, one has to get money however and from whomever one can, actual liability be damned.   If the proposed contribution of the Church of Jesus Christ to the settlement were divided only among victims who are or were Latter-day Saints, it would work out to more than $100K per victim.  While I understand why, given the harm that occurred, some people might think that's insufficient, it's hardly chump change.  I'm starting to understand more about why the Church of Jesus Christ dropped Scouting.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[mgy401]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Of course.  If one is going to sue somebody, one has to get money however and from whomever one can, actual liability be damned.   If the proposed contribution of the Church of Jesus Christ to the settlement were divided only among victims who are or were Latter-day Saints, it would work out to more than $100K per victim.  While I understand why, given the harm that occurred, some people might think that's insufficient, it's hardly chump change.  I'm starting to understand more about why the Church of Jesus Christ dropped Scouting.

My understanding is that certain victims’ attorneys, when they were negotiating with potential clients, were forecasting individual payouts in the range of $100K; which would require a reimbursement fund of $8.5 billion.  AFAIK, no one in the BSA bankruptcy has those kinds of asset reserves—not BSA National, not the councils, not the insurers, not the chartering orgs—no one except the LDS Church itself.  Most of them don’t have anywhere near it—I think the BSA and council assets combined are under $2 billion.

And let’s remember that $100K is on the low end for a sex abuse claim.  Kerry Lewis won $18.5 million from the BSA back in 2010.  If the Church can be held jointly and severally liable with the BSA for a judgment of $100K, there’s little reason it couldn’t be on the hook for an award of up to $1 million or even $10 million, which puts our potential exposure at $80 billion or even $800 billion.

Suddenly that “rainy day fund” we’ve got is looking a little on the small side—at least, if we want to hold on to our temples . . .

Edited September 18, 2021 by mgy401

[Duncan]

Doesn't the Church have it's own legal Dept. Kirton and McConkie or they employ them? boy oh boy having to explain to the boss that the Church has to pay 250 million dollars, I think someone is going to not make swing manager over this!

[Calm]

On 9/16/2021 at 12:49 PM, Tacenda said:

I think the victims got robbed, no way is this enough compensation. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/boy-scouts-reach-settlements-with-insurers-mormons-over-sex-abuse-claims.html

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2021/09/18/the-church-of-jesus-christ-and-the-bsa-bankruptcy-case
 

You might want to read this…

[Robert F. Smith]

https://checkr.com/demo/checkr-for-faith-based-communities?utm_source=tech-today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=faith-demo

[Calm]

Robert, your point please.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Robert, your point please.

Looks like a link for faith communities to do a better job of doing background checks. But I gather you know that. Maybe it's a mic drop.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

 

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

https://checkr.com/demo/checkr-for-faith-based-communities?utm_source=tech-today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=faith-demo

 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Robert, your point please.

 

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Looks like a link for faith communities to do a better job of doing background checks. But I gather you know that. Maybe it's a mic drop.

If she knows what Robert's point is, then why did she ask?  Do you believe she's simply playing dumb?  If you do believe that, why do you believe that?  Is it consistent with her modus operandi over more than 20 years of posting on this board and its various predecessors?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

 

If she knows what Robert's point is, then why did she ask?  Do you believe she's simply playing dumb?  If you do believe that, why do you believe that?  Is it consistent with her modus operandi over more than 20 years of posting on this board and its various predecessors?

No, I gathered that she does want his point and already saw the link. And therefore said what I did. And thought I was being funny by adding Robert just posted the link w/o comment for a dramatic affect, but that was just a guess. Sorry if I caused any rift from my earllier morning and sleepy post.

I must have hit a sore spot...no emojis? 

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

... I must have hit a sore spot...no emojis? 

No.  I asked a simple question expecting a simple answer, that's all.  (Believe me, I'm not averse to calling someone out of he or she hits a sore spot.  I've gotten in trouble for that more times than I can count, here and probably elsewhere, too.)

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Robert, your point please.

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Looks like a link for faith communities to do a better job of doing background checks. But I gather you know that. Maybe it's a mic drop.

Not sure what "a mic drop" is, but it was just a mild suggestion that background checks are a very good thing for those we have watching over the children, or acting in some financial capacity.  A number of faith communities do it, perhaps in line with Jesus' aphorism:  "Be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves."