Stargazer Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 18 hours ago, The Nehor said: We do know in the end he favored Donitz. That was terrible. Laughed my tush off. Heil Dönitz, indeed.
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: That was terrible. Laughed my tush off. Heil Dönitz, indeed. Have some more Nazi humor:
poptart Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: Have some more Nazi humor: 1
smac97 Posted July 27, 2021 Author Posted July 27, 2021 Not sure if this has been posted: Quote Alaska’s attorney general blasts #DezNat tweets, removes cases from embattled assistant Treg Taylor, himself a BYU alum, says the Twitter messages “do not represent my personal views or my deeply held faith.” Alaska’s attorney general has removed the caseload from his embattled assistant, Matthias Cicotte, who is being investigated for reportedly using a #DezNat Twitter handle to post homophobic, antisemitic, sexist and racist comments on the social media platform. “The allegations raised against Mr. Cicotte are very serious,” Treg Taylor wrote in an email to the Department of Law, “and we are currently working with the Division of Personnel and Labor Relations to conduct an investigation into the various claims.” Taylor told the members of his department that he found the tweets “at the center of this matter” — allegedly written by Cicotte, a graduate of Brigham Young University’s J. Reuben Clark Law School, “deeply troubling and offensive.” They do not “represent the views of the State of Alaska, the Department of Law and certainly do not represent my personal views or my deeply held faith,” wrote Taylor, who also earned his law degree from BYU, which is owned and operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “All people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. The contemptuous views expressed in these tweets, which are based solely on the race, religion, sex, and political identity of others, fall very far from the standard.” Because Cicotte’s case “involves personnel issues and an ongoing investigation,” Taylor declined to comment further, except to assure the department that he does “not share or condone the personal views espoused by the subject Twitter [handle] or in other posts using #DezNat.” I've repeatedly expressed the hope that Latter-day Saints will step away from and disavow both the #DezNat hashtag and its associated problematic themes and behaviors. We as Latter-day Saints need to be clear about these things. It would also help to heed the prophetic counsel we have received against uncivil behavior, racism, coars communications, and so on. Thanks, -Smac 2
Calm Posted July 27, 2021 Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) Hmmm….are there a lot of Latter-day Saints in Alaska by birth or are BYU law graduates just so numerous some had to go to Alaska in search of jobs? added: 8th ranked state https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mormon-population-by-state.html Edited July 27, 2021 by Calm 1
ttribe Posted July 29, 2021 Posted July 29, 2021 FYI - No longer employed at the Alaska Attorney General's Office
Tacenda Posted July 29, 2021 Posted July 29, 2021 1 hour ago, ttribe said: FYI - No longer employed at the Alaska Attorney General's Office Woo hoo, glad about that!!
smac97 Posted July 29, 2021 Author Posted July 29, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, ttribe said: FYI - No longer employed at the Alaska Attorney General's Office More here: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/07/28/embattled-attorney-under/ Quote “In light of the news report that a BYU Law alumnus has directed venomous and hateful Twitter messages against a variety of vulnerable groups, and in light of persistent vitriol and ugliness in civic discourse, both locally and nationally,” law school Dean D. Gordon Smith and Associate Deans Justin Collings and Carolina Núñez wrote to students, faculty and staff, “we wish to reinforce and reaffirm our commitment to the ideals articulated in the BYU Law Mission Statement” — including recognizing the “inherent dignity and equality of each individual.” I have started a number of threads about DezNat, starting in September 2019. At the time I wasn't quite sure what to make of it: Quote I have no particular interest in joining or advancing DezNat as an ideology. At best, it gilds the lilly (the "lilly" being what the Church is already doing), and hence seems more like a hue and cry than anything substantive. At worst, it is a distortion of the teaching of the Church and its leaders. ... I'm not saying that this movement is "fake," or that it is "manufactured by trolls," but I question how widespread it is, how nefarious it is, etc. Again, I am open to contrasting viewpoints and evidences. ... So far virtually nothing in the way of actual evidence that DezNat is saying/doing nefarious things. Fast forward to December 2020: Quote Here's what I have found so far: A. Clearly Racist Tweets "Nofear" has posted links to Kwaku (see here: https://tinyurl.com/y23lggyt), a young black member of the Church, stating on Twitter that he "hates DezNat." This is in response to a Tweet from a fellow ("Robert") with a Twitter handle, "@MormonLibsLMAO" (the account has been suspended) using the "N" word to describe Kwaku. Others apparently joined in. ... I am not very familiar with Twitter, but it seems pretty obvious that someone ("@Kavitiko") criticized Robert's use of the "N" word ("Dude, just because you don't know how to spell the word doesn't make it less offensive"), and immediately (based on the timestamps) a number of other posters responded by spelling out the "N" word one letter at a time. These others, listed in the above image on the right side included: "H O S S DezNat News Man" (@NiasDiad) "N I M" (@AltemFritz) "Deseret Boi" (@deseret_boi) (account suspended) "Robert" (@MormonLibsLMAO) (account suspended) "Athen" (@SavageAthena) (account suspended) "Mond" (@_DNA_Mond) I'm noting this because it seems to be the first clearcut example I have seen of an association between the "DezNat" hashtag and actual racism (I don't know how else to characterize the above images). Conversely, I also found this: Quote I also just found this website, Teancum's Javelin (apparently a group blog), which was apparently created by JP Bellum, the fellow who created the DezNat hashtag. I cannot characterize this blog as "racist." Right-wing? Sure. Heavily political? You bet. But advocating or justifying racism? I see no evidence of that. ... I don't see "racism" in the posts on this blog. For example, elsewhere on the above website a blog contributor, Ezra Cole, quotes Pres. Oaks' October 2020 General Conference comments about how "{k}nowing that we are all children of God gives us a divine vision of the worth of all others and the will and ability to rise above prejudice and racism." Another contributor has this to say: Quote Why would protesting the murder of a black man at the hands of a white cop be against the Gospel? President Nelson even issued a statement condemning racism, obviously, some might say, these protests are a good thing to help us recognize the shortcomings of our society. I firmly believe “all are alike unto God” (2 Ne 26:33). My family is Mexican and we’ve experienced negative treatment because some people did not think we were equals. I understand that racism still exists. But I also believe in the 2nd Article of Faith: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression. And another has this to say: Quote {R}acism and elevation of it is evil and abhorrent and provides great cause to repent and that is exactly the point. And another: Quote Satan creates ideologies that stoke envy, resentment, and hatred to create strife which then leads to tyranny. Throughout the history of the world, Satan has used a variety of ideologies to accomplish this. Examples of these include racism, antisemitism, Nazism, fascism, communism, and socialism. Each of these ideologies sows hatred of “the other,” teaches actions of “the other” is what has caused their suffering and thus society owes them recompense for those injustices. And another: Quote Imagine you come across a cannibal discouraged at the idea that eating humans is prohibited. If that’s too difficult for you, a racist weeping over the denouncement of white supremacy by church leaders. I did not see anything on this website that could reasonably be construed as promoting racism. Instead, what references to racism I did find were condemnatory of it. ... This Wheat and Tares article from August 2020 is a long tome about "right wing ideologies," including quite a bit about DezNat. The author (somewhat tenuously) links "DezNat" with "Deseret Nationalists" and "Vanguard Utah," which are apparently the genuine article (actual white nationalists). This article is well-researched and well-written, but in the main it seems to corroborate my assessment of DezNat, namely, that it's a hashtag being used by various groups and individuals, some of whom are actually and truly "racist" (and, therefore, are disregarding the clear counsel of the leaders of the Church), and some who are clearly not (see Teancum's Javelin above). I concluded: Quote So here are my thoughts to get the ball rolling: Back when I started the first thread about DezNat it did not seem to be a thing. I think that has changed. As noted above, it does not appear that DezNat is an organization, but rather a hashtag. But because hashtags cannot be copyrighted or controlled, they can be appropriated by anyone. And based on my admittedly preliminary investigation/research, it appears that some genuine racists are using it. It appears that there are people who are not racist who have used or are using the hashtag. It appears that the hashtag has been "tainted" as being expressive or supportive of racism. It apparently did not start out that way, and is not universally intended to express that idea, but the casual reader will not know this. Many (most?) of them will see #DezNat and immediately associate it with the appropriation/misappropriation of the hashtag by overt racists. And not just because the overt racists use the hashtag. People are apparently using the hashtag in conjunction with expressions described by its creator ("combative, rude, crass, aggressive, even mean"). When that happens, it doesn't take much to continue the negative perception to include things like "racist" and "sexist." And though such perceptions are not entirely correct, their not entirely incorrect, either (as evidenced by the individuals who used the "N" word against Kwaku). Based on what I have read so for, it seems that expressions of racism and sexism/misogyny are likely the most serious negative aspects of the use of the #DezNat hashtag. Nevertheless, the "combative, rude, crass, aggressive, even mean" expressions are also quite serious, also foment ill will, and are also out of harmony with the teachings of the Church. I am reminded of the swastika, which was originally a benign religious icon that was appropriated by the Nazis, such that it now overwhelmingly carries connotations of great evil. Similarly, whatever #DezNat started out as, it has since been misappropriated and corrupted. And since it is newly-minted and has no revelatory provenance, I think it should be abandoned and rejected by the Latter-day Saints. As Latter-day Saints, if and when we see expressions of racism by members of the Church, we should speak against such things (and, obviously, refrain from expressing or harboring such sentiments ourselves). We should speak with patience and charity, but also with clarity and firmness. The Brethren have done a very good job at this, particularly in this last General Conference. We now need to apply their counsel in our day-to-day lives. We should also avoid using charges of "racism" as a nearly one-size-fits-all retort to sociopolitical disagreement. I think there is some real frustration amongst white people who face frequent and baseless accusations of racism by strangers. Ironically, such accusations are often based solely on white people being white, which is itself a noxious expression of racism. In hindsight, I think the comparison of the #DezNat hashtag to the swastika is apt. The problems with DezNat became considerably more apparent in April 2021: Quote Here's a Trib opinion piece by Russell Stevenson (author of “For the Cause of Righteousness: A Global History of Blacks and Mormonism”) that addresses DezNat again: #DezNat philosophy is damaging to the LDS Church: Quote (Francisco Kjolseth | The Salt Lake Tribune) Here are some of the Twitter postings by #DezNat users, who claim they are defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from “apostates.” Brigham Young University has recently released its report on Race, Equity, and Belonging, with hopes of producing a campus environment that proactively seeks to welcome those from ethnically minoritized communities. In this report, the authors take particular care to identify a specific movement that has proven to be unsettling, unwelcoming, and often hostile to ethnic minorities at Brigham Young University. Many ethnic minorities, the report observes, experience “a lot of stress regarding the rise of alt-right movements (e.g. DezNat)” and experience “worries about things that might be said or done in classrooms, at church, etc.” Known by the hashtag #DezNat, this alt-right-style movement brands themselves as “unapologetically” Latter-day Saint, with a commitment to church leaders that is articulated in terms of bowie knives and the rhetoric of violence. The hashtag’s founder, J.P. Bellum, bills his movement as straightforward: “While the questions, conditions, and problems of the world may be myriad, our response is simple — we follow the prophet.” I am also unapologetically Latter-day Saint. Very happy to be so, in fact. I also value the idea of taking seriously and following prophetic counsel and guidance. And yet I don't like #DezNat, as a concept or in practice. It is, to me, increasingly troubling and disturbing. I am very much opposed to the violence-related imagery/rhetoric. I dislike how DezNat adherents seem to freely conflate Latter-day Saint doctrine/belief with certain political affiliations and positions, as if our beliefs and certain political platforms are indistinguishable from each other. And I am concerned about DezNat's necessarily decentralized messaging and ideology. There is no organization, no heirarchy, no vetting, no coherent message. The hashtag and the overall concept are therefore apparently susceptible to being (mis)used to associate the Church and its members with things that are incompatible with the Restored Gospel, such as racist rhetoric. Bro. Bellum says that "our response is simple -- we follow the prophet." I'm not sure the things are that simple, as such a resposne doesn't address, for example, the violent imagery associated with DezNat, nor the apparent occasional racism. And here: Quote I don't think Ezra Taft Benson would approve of this: Or this: Or this: Or this: Or this: And so on. These are not appropriates words and imagery. This is disturbing stuff. ... I'm increasingly disliking DezNat. Even if this is being blown out of proportion, there is an increasing coarseness and aggressiveness in our communications these days. The Brethren have spoken to us a number of times about what we say and how we say it. And more in June 2021: Quote Quote Some #DezNat troops, fearful of being publicly outed, are retreating from digital LDS war The creator of the hashtag and dozens of others have deleted their Twitter accounts. By Peggy Fletcher Stack | June 18, 2021, 6:00 a.m. Possibly spooked by the prospect of being publicly identified, #DezNat creator J.P. Bellum, a self-appointed general in the online fight to support Jesus Christ and Latter-day Saint prophets, has deleted his Twitter account. Perhaps. Or maybe they are listening to their better angels. Quote In the past six weeks, an estimated 80 other #DezNat regulars seem to have likewise eliminated their accounts or moved them to a private setting, according to researchers. Others have erased the hashtag or wiped out past tweets. This could signal the beginning of a digital war between #DezNat proponents and critics, with a few of the major users of the hashtag clearly in retreat. I think this is a good thing. I have previously been fairly critical of #DezNat. I am glad to see my fellow Latter-day Saints apparently abandon it, both as a hashtag and an ideology. Quote Since its creation in August 2018, #DezNat, short for Deseret Nation, has enlisted loosely aligned ground troops to defend the doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Their battlefield has been the internet, where they hurl verbal attacks, some with violent overtones, and harsh memes from the safety of mostly anonymous accounts. Starting in May, though, another account called DezNat Exposed (under the handle @ExposeDezNat), has reportedly outed two #DezNat users, including a current Latter-day Saint missionary. And the account is promising to reveal others’ identities. Huh. So perhaps not "better angels" after all. Bummer. I suspect that around this time (June 2021) the #DezNat guys started to hear stories about some of their fellows getting doxxed. From the Guardian article: Quote But evidence from his Twitter output allowed Cicotte to be identified by anti-fascist researchers, whose evidence was confirmed and augmented by a Guardian investigation. ... The account is pseudonymous, but it left a trail of evidence regarding Cicotte’s identity which were archived by antifascist activists. The moniker not only references a prominent 20th-century Mormon leader and attorney, but is the name of Brigham Young University’s law school, from which Cicotte graduated in 2008. The account revealed a number of biographical details that match Cicotte’s, from the length of his marriage, to the identity of his criminal law professor, to his frequent moves, to the dates of his various stints in higher education, to his ownership of a Minivan, to the date of his house purchase. There are other clues based on the course of his life or contemporaneous events. In August 2020, the account’s owner remarked that he had been overweight but lost a significant amount of weight, which matches a long chronological sequence of photographs obtained from his wife’s Facebook page. The most compelling evidence comes from photographs posted by the account, presenting them as depictions of the interior of the owner’s house. One reveals a distinctive patterning on the brickwork, and another a similarly distinctive pattern on wood paneling in a kitchen. The first matches a fireplace pictured in two photographs of Cicotte’s house posted to the realtor.com website; the second matches several pictures of Cicotte’s kitchen on the same site. The pictures of the kitchen also reveal a matching layout and countertops to the image posted to Twitter. In a telephone conversation that took place after he had viewed the photographs posted to Twitter, Ellsworth Warner, who lived in the house until 2014 when it was sold to Cicotte, said, “Yep, it is the same house,” and identified the cabinets as having been installed by his mother, Renee Warner. Another description of the disposition of his house on Twitter also matches satellite images. As I noted a few weeks ago: Quote If you are going to post risible and provocative stuff anonymously online, be prepared to have your privacy invaded. I don't approve of doxxing, but plenty of others do. Better to either A) moderate your words, B) post under your IRL name, or C) A and B. I sure wish Bro. Cicotte and the other guys posting provocative/offensive stuff would have been more circumspect. Particularly, I wish they had spent less time giving each other virtual high-fives and more time listening to the Brethren, and to their better angels, about how we ought to communicate with each other with respect, kindness, tolerance, and so on. It's a lesson I sure am taking to heart (again). Thanks, -Smac Edited July 29, 2021 by smac97 3
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2021 Posted July 31, 2021 On 7/29/2021 at 10:31 AM, smac97 said: As I noted a few weeks ago: I sure wish Bro. Cicotte and the other guys posting provocative/offensive stuff would have been more circumspect. Particularly, I wish they had spent less time giving each other virtual high-fives and more time listening to the Brethren, and to their better angels, about how we ought to communicate with each other with respect, kindness, tolerance, and so on. It's a lesson I sure am taking to heart (again). Thanks, -Smac I don’t wish they had been more circumspect. I wish I had they shown their true colors more quickly. I mean, it was pretty obvious what they were from the start but their moderate approach to going fash caused some hemming and hawing and ‘don’t jump to conclusions’ amongst far too many. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 https://www.yahoo.com/news/deznats-religious-extremists-push-ultra-090002997.html
Tacenda Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: https://www.yahoo.com/news/deznats-religious-extremists-push-ultra-090002997.html It mentions a Gregory Smith, that wouldn't be the same one as who was on the Fair board is it?
Robert F. Smith Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: It mentions a Gregory Smith, that wouldn't be the same one as who was on the Fair board is it? I wondered the same thing. However, the Gregory Smith running for City Council in North Ogden is apparently the owner of a bike shop, and not Doctor Gregory L. Smith, the MD and LDS intellectual.
bOObOO Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I wondered the same thing. However, the Gregory Smith running for City Council in North Ogden is apparently the owner of a bike shop, and not Doctor Gregory L. Smith, the MD and LDS intellectual. Yeah, not a real DezNat. Not harsh enough. 1
bOObOO Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 On 7/29/2021 at 8:31 AM, smac97 said: I sure wish Bro. Cicotte and the other guys posting provocative/offensive stuff would have been more circumspect. Particularly, I wish they had spent less time giving each other virtual high-fives and more time listening to the Brethren, and to their better angels, about how we ought to communicate with each other with respect, kindness, tolerance, and so on. It's a lesson I sure am taking to heart (again). Thanks, -Smac A lot of time the tone or word choice you use to say something doesn't matter one bit to someone who will get that you just do not approve of their behavior. And to be honest you should share how you feel and what you think, with or without other's approval.
Calm Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: It mentions a Gregory Smith, that wouldn't be the same one as who was on the Fair board is it? Our Greg is a Canadian doctor.
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