ksfisher Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Do you actually think that Prophets are incapable of making mistakes? I think the two key words in President Kimball's quote are "I suppose." He not saying he knows anything, he's just saying what he thinks. 2
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 8 hours ago, InCognitus said: The false portrayal of the doctrine that the church rejects, as I see it, is the idea that these worlds (or planets as you call them) become personal possessions that can be used for whatever purpose the "owner" desires. That is certainly how it is portrayed in some literature critical of the church, and that is what I think the church is saying that we do not believe. The truth is, celestial beings become a Zion people, having all things in common, and they are in fact inheritors in all that God has: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Revelation 21:7) "Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. And they shall overcome all things."(Doctrine and Covenants 76:59–60) And as it says in the Joseph Smith translation of Revelation 2:26-27: "And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father." (Joseph Smith Translation, Revelation 2:26–27) It's all done according to the order and plan of Heavenly Father, and under his direction. So if all things are theirs, and all things are God's, it's kind of pointless to say that someone "get's their own planet", except in the sense that they are appointed a stewardship over particular kingdoms. To me it's kind of like saying that a Bishop in the church has his "own" ward. I think we also need to note the ambiguity of the term "world" here, it can mean just about any complete system or activities. "The wonderful world of cooking.... of Disney....of sports....of politics....of woodworking, etc. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think the two key words in President Kimball's quote are "I suppose." He not saying he knows anything, he's just saying what he thinks. Didn't even notice THAT!! Good catch!
InCognitus Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 4 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: So you are saying the quote from pres kimball I quoted is false doctrine? I'm saying that in the context of the doctrines as I have explained them, President Kimball is speculating that some may be given stewardships over kingdoms ("worlds") that either Heavenly Father creates, or they create. This is obviously not the same thing as you saying: "they get their own planet", as if it's a possession. Others have already pointed out that the word world isn't limited to mean only "planet" as you are thinking, and from a scriptural point of view it means much more than that. Just look at the 1828 Webster Dictionary definition of the word (and I'm only showing the first four definitions on the list): Quote WORLD, noun [This seems to be a compound word, and probably is named from roundness, the vault; but this is not certain.] 1. The universe; the whole system of created globes or vast bodies of matter. 2. The earth; the terraqueous globe; sometimes called the lower world 3. The heavens; as when we speak of the heavenly world or upper world 4. System of beings; or the orbs which occupy space, and all the beings which inhabit them. Hebrews 11:7. God--hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. Hebrews 1:6. I chose the 1828 Webster Dictionary simply because it corresponds more closely with the language of our scriptures. 1
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Do you actually think that Prophets are incapable of making mistakes? No but they cannot lead us astray or so I’m told. That’s why I don’t buy much of what they say. Kimball also thought Navajo Indians who were righteous would turn white. Even said it in conference. My parents bought that one and we ended up with two Navajo kids in our home.
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 33 minutes ago, InCognitus said: I'm saying that in the context of the doctrines as I have explained them, President Kimball is speculating that some may be given stewardships over kingdoms ("worlds") that either Heavenly Father creates, or they create. This is obviously not the same thing as you saying: "they get their own planet", as if it's a possession. Was kimball quoted on this somewhere or are you just making up an explanation on his behalf?
Calm Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: My parents bought that one and we ended up with two Navajo kids in our home. Because they would turn white or because they were encouraged to help provide them a chance for better education by offering loving support from a family? Would they not have offered their home if they didn’t believe that the kids’ skin would turn lighter if they were righteous?
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 52 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: No but they cannot lead us astray or so I’m told. That’s why I don’t buy much of what they say. Kimball also thought Navajo Indians who were righteous would turn white. Even said it in conference. My parents bought that one and we ended up with two Navajo kids in our home. We need to become spiritual adults on our own. I am sure, if they were keeping gospel Covenants that their - and our - spirits become "white".
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: We need to become spiritual adults on our own. I am sure, if they were keeping gospel Covenants that their - and our - spirits become "white". I agree. That is why I question anything they say which I feel to be …let’s say false Kimball said that in a photo he could see their skin had turned lighter in color. He isn’t talking about their spirits. Totally about their skin. https://m.imgur.com/a/5eL9q Edited July 12, 2021 by secondclasscitizen
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Calm said: Because they would turn white or because they were encouraged to help provide them a chance for better education by offering loving support from a family? probably both. They were not real fond of anyone not white especially blacks. Indians were ok in their book despite the fact they felt them to be extremely lazy. 1 hour ago, Calm said: Would they not have offered their home if they didn’t believe that the kids’ skin would turn lighter if they were righteous? I don’t know. That wasn’t something we discussed. I just found out all these years later the prevailing thought was these kids would turn white.. their skin would turn white.
Esrom Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: We need to become spiritual adults on our own. I am sure, if they were keeping gospel Covenants that their - and our - spirits become "white". Yeah the problem is that spiritual concepts of white meaning pure is distorted to refer to race. We all know any race can have a darkened heart.
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: Because they would turn white or because they were encouraged to help provide them a chance for better education by offering loving support 2 hours ago, Calm said: Because they would turn white or because they were encouraged to help provide them a chance for better education by offering loving support from a family? Interestingly the loving support in the form of getting up at the crack of dawn every single day to read scriptures, FHE, and church every week both of the kids thought was bs. My mom had to fight and argue with them every day and they refused to cooperate. See my parents thought they could just force them to do what they said just like they treated their own kids-didn’t work. It was a total dumpster fire with both of them. One ran away after a month and the other lasted about six months. Oh and we all got lice too. What a mess. Parents were not so loving after that and we never took in any more thankfully. Edited July 12, 2021 by secondclasscitizen
Calm Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said: probably both. They were not real fond of anyone not white especially blacks. Indians were ok in their book despite the fact they felt them to be extremely lazy. I don’t know. That wasn’t something we discussed. I just found out all these years later the prevailing thought was these kids would turn white.. their skin would turn white. Seems rather presumptuous to assume intent or a connection when you never discussed such things with them. They treated them like their own kids is what you are describing. Edited July 12, 2021 by Calm
secondclasscitizen Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Calm said: Seems rather presumptuous to assume intent or a connection when you never discussed such things with them. I don’t think so if how they spoke of them in front of us kids is any indication. 2 hours ago, Calm said: They treated them like their own kids is what you are describing. I believe I did say that
Calm Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: believe I did say that Seems like if we continue down this road it will get too personal, so unless you feel a need, I think I will quit sooner than I had envisioned in thinking where this could go.
TheTanakas Posted July 18, 2021 Posted July 18, 2021 On 7/5/2021 at 7:10 PM, Calm said: The Exaltation chapter of the Gospel Principles Manual on the GL app still says “They will become gods”. If exaltation means becoming a god, who are the gods of Psalm 82:6?
Calm Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 4 hours ago, TheTanakas said: If exaltation means becoming a god, who are the gods of Psalm 82:6? Could mean those on the family of Gods or it could be speaking of the future. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 13 hours ago, TheTanakas said: If exaltation means becoming a god, who are the gods of Psalm 82:6? Fred and Nancy. Why do even think we would know their names? They are out ruling other universes and would have nothing to do with El and his universes
Calm Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Fred and Nancy. Why do even think we would know their names? They are out ruling other universes and would have nothing to do with El and his universes Except El is the one speaking to them… If Psalm 82 is referring to the Heavenly Council or Council of El we talk about as occurring in the Preexistence, then they are likely located in this universe. Quote God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.… 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you arechildren of the most High. 7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. Edited July 19, 2021 by Calm
Calm Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, TheTanakas said: If exaltation means becoming a god, who are the gods of Psalm 82:6? You might find these articles interesting and informative: http://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/staging/4108/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ye-Are-Gods-Ps-82-and-John-10-as-witnesses-to-the-Divine-Nature-of-Humankind-Peterson.pdf https://rsc-legacy.byu.edu/archived/byu-religious-education-student-symposium-2014/psalm-82-latter-day-saint-reading https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/archive/publications/reconsidering-psalms-826 https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/psalm-82-2/ https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/psalm-82-in-contemporary-latter-day-saint-tradition/ Edited July 19, 2021 by Calm 1
Calm Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) Volgadon, a past contributor to the board, suggests it refers to Israel: http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2010/05/ye-are-gods.html?m=1 Quote From a study of ancient Jewish literature, it becomes apparent that Jesus was not refering to human judges, but to a different tradition entirely. An early Amoraic work, the Midrash Numbers Rabba (or Bamidbar Rabbah) 16:24, relates the tradition that the Lord made the Children of Israel immortal, warning death not to touch them, but since they feared and would not accept the gift offered them the Lord made Israel as mere men again. In John Jesus says "unto whom the word of the Lord came". Word, or davar, quite frequently meant a commandment, which commandment can be seen in this midrash. They saw the counsel which the Lord decreed for them and straightaways ruined the counsel 40 days, for it is said (Proverbs 1): ye have set at nought all my counsel. The Holy One, Blessed is He said unto them: I said that ye are not sinning and ye shall live and be as I am, as I liveth and am for Eternity and for Eternity of Eternities, for I decreed (Ps 82) gods are ye and sons of the Most High (Elyon) are ye all, and are as the ministering angels, which die not and yet after this great thing ye request to die, then die as man ye shall, even as the First Man (Adam) whom I commanded one commandment for to do and he should live and be for Eternity, as it is said (Gen 3): for the man was as one of us. And also: and created God the man in his own image, to live and be as he [God] is, but he [Adam] transgressed and nullified my decree, and ate from the tree, and I said unto him: for dust thou art. So too are ye, as I said: gods are ye, yet have injured yourselves as man, so verily as man shall ye die. See also: https://www3.nd.edu/~jneyrey1/Gods.html I am liking this theory myself as making sense of the rest of the Psalm best for me. Edited July 19, 2021 by Calm 1
TheTanakas Posted July 20, 2021 Posted July 20, 2021 On 7/19/2021 at 5:40 AM, mfbukowski said: Why do even think we would know their names? Are you one of the gods mentioned in Psalm 82?
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheTanakas said: Are you one of the gods mentioned in Psalm 82? This question is completely off base. I was going to let it go and not reply, but with all your time here on the board I cannot believe that you do not understand that you are ridiculing our faith by asking it. See Calm's comment directly above your question Edited July 21, 2021 by mfbukowski
TheTanakas Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 19 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I cannot believe that you do not understand that you are ridiculing our faith by asking it Come on man.
CV75 Posted July 21, 2021 Posted July 21, 2021 I found a TV station that shows the missing Honeymooners episodes.
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