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Article re church's interest in land


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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Yes, you are misreading me,  No, I am not interested in trying to correct the misreading as you appear to have overly focused on something trivial to my comment.

Just trying to understand why you think a resurrected being, contrary to doctrine, is inherently subject to death. 
 

Afterthought added later: Death is not a part of eternity. It is a condition of mortality. Spirits never die, nor do resurrected or translated beings. 

It’s not a matter of something keeping them alive. It’s a matter of death being nonexistent in the realm in which they dwell. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am saying that for people in general it may not desirable. For members I think it is desirable. If everyone were a committed member than I would flip-flop to thinking abstinence in general is good. However if that were the case the evil and designing people that made the Word of Wisdom necessary wouldn’t be around either.

If the Savior returns and invites me to drink wine with him as he has promised to drink with others I also do not plan on trying to say it is against my religion. :)

Then again I doubt I will get an invite.

So you are saying there are no health benefits inherent to alcohol abstinence and that it is undesirable except for Church members who have committed to observing the Word of Wisdom. I can’t agree with you. Again, setting aside the doctrinal and covenantal component, I’ve lost nothing of real value in my life by having abstained and have likely gained a great deal in health advantages thereby. 

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you are saying there are no health benefits inherent to alcohol abstinence and that it is undesirable except for Church members who have committed to observing the Word of Wisdom. I can’t agree with you. Again, setting aside the doctrinal and covenantal component, I’ve lost nothing of real value in my life by having abstained and have likely gained a great deal in health advantages thereby. 

No, I am not saying that.

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16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just trying to understand why you think a resurrected being, contrary to doctrine, is inherently subject to death. 

I don’t. 

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42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You apparently do if you think the resurrected being relies on something keeping him alive. 

Yep...keep misreading me. You have constructed this image of what you think I meant and keep running with that.  What a waste of time. 
 

Bottomline of what I actually meant is “we do not know how the resurrected body functions, where it gets energy”.

Rewritten:  my point at the beginning is it has not been revealed as far as I know how a resurrected body sustains itself, by the way it has been defined or anything else.  I asked a CFR in case I had missed something. Since all you have provided are assertions I am wrong about food being needed, a position I never expressed, I have gathered you are as clueless about the mechanism as I am and I officially withdraw my CFR. 

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Otherwise, I could require you to document yours (beyond your own reasoning) that a resurrected body will have a functioning digestive tract and metabolism, etc., which I won’t do. 

Out of curiosity about what you think about this, not challenging you or implying anything about the process because I don’t believe we have any info allowing us to safely draw conclusions even if you apparently do, what do you think happened to the food that Christ ate after his resurrection if it wasn’t processed in the same way as when he ate before death?

And why is resurrection talked about as restoring even the hair on our heads if the digestive system is not functional?

Edited by Calm
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7 hours ago, Calm said:

Out of curiosity about what you think about this, not challenging you or implying anything about the process because I don’t believe we have any info allowing us to safely draw conclusions even if you apparently do, what do you think happened to the food that Christ ate after his resurrection if it wasn’t processed in the same way as when he ate before death?

And why is resurrection talked about as restoring even the hair on our heads if the digestive system is not functional?

Both of you have gone far into the weeds with so much speculation.  There are only a few tidbits that we do know.  Such as mortal beings have "flesh and blood" bodies and celestial beings have bodies of "flesh and bone".  Apparently mortal bodies require blood but resurrected bodies do NOT.  Instead some form of "pure energy" may flow thru resurrected bodies (I think I read that somewhere).

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3 minutes ago, longview said:

Both of you have gone far into the weeds with so much speculation.  There are only a few tidbits that we do know.  Such as mortal beings have "flesh and blood" bodies and celestial beings have bodies of "flesh and bone".  Apparently mortal bodies require blood but resurrected bodies do NOT.  Instead some form of "pure energy" may flow thru resurrected bodies (I think I read that somewhere).

There are old quotes about the blood replacement being “finer”.

Here are two quotes from John Taylor.

Quote

 

Resurrected beings have the power to do the things that mortals can do (though the ability to create life, or the power of procreation will be reserved for those that are exalted). Resurrected beings are very similar mortals, their bodies are tangible, having hands that can touch and feel just as we do. They have arms, legs, eyes, a mouth, hair, and other features that they possessed in mortality. Unlike mortals, however, resurrected personages have spirit matter in their bodies in the place of blood.

When the resurrection and exaltation of man shall be consummated, although more pure, refined and glorious, yet will he still be in the same image, and have the same likeness, without variation or change in any of his parts or faculties, except the substitution of spirit for blood.”

It is probably worth noting that the bit about blood being absent is possibly an extrapolation from the revelation that resurrected bodies are a body of “flesh and bone”. We know virtually nothing about the biology of resurrected beings and there is a possibility that the transition from Telestial to Terrestrial to Celestial environments have all kinds of differences in how matter itself operates (see a lot of stuff by the Pratts). If that is true it is possible that if the biology of exalted beings was described to us it would be nonsensical or ludicrous to our understanding of biology and/or physics.

 

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37 minutes ago, longview said:

Both of you have gone far into the weeds with so much speculation.  There are only a few tidbits that we do know.  Such as mortal beings have "flesh and blood" bodies and celestial beings have bodies of "flesh and bone".  Apparently mortal bodies require blood but resurrected bodies do NOT.  Instead some form of "pure energy" may flow thru resurrected bodies (I think I read that somewhere).

I am refraining from speculating here, I am saying we know nothing.  I am referring to scripture.  You are speculating more than I did. 

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3 hours ago, longview said:

Both of you have gone far into the weeds with so much speculation.  There are only a few tidbits that we do know.  Such as mortal beings have "flesh and blood" bodies and celestial beings have bodies of "flesh and bone".  Apparently mortal bodies require blood but resurrected bodies do NOT.  Instead some form of "pure energy" may flow thru resurrected bodies (I think I read that somewhere).

Speculation is evil now? I am so damned.

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On 6/10/2021 at 12:03 PM, smac97 said:

Thoughts?

I think you're right: It's likley a fundamentally sound finanical investment, like the Church's giant farm in Florida. Inflation isn't going anywhere, so holding capital is the same as slowly burning it. 

I have several friends who served in the Cannery in Harrisville, UT and they sahred that the Church during the covid recession distirbuted more food than the Canneries had during any time in the past, huge amounts. This land acquisition could also be proposed as an acceptable acquisition for cannery supplmenets. 

So, finances, food, and perhaps as a back up plan, the Apocalypse stuff. I've heard the Church bought a lot of land from the BSA andordered over 100,000 large family sized tents (3 to 4 years ago), for Apocalypse sceanrios but I'm not sure my sources were the most reliable. 

Water rights in the west are often more valuable than land. 

Also heard that the Church liquidates land it owns such as vineyards with use agreements which restrict the purchaser's use (and likely lower the sellign price) such as not producing wine. Heard this is standard practice in CA. Not sure. 

Not sure the Bundy's are part of the Church's acquisition strategy. 

Doubt the Gates' divorce will impede thier foundation's acquisiton strategy. 

Re: bankruptcy administration

In addition to reporting and oversight costs, Chapter 11 bankruptcies have been notoriously expensive because procedural requirements demand substantial attorney work, not only on behalf of the company, but also on behalf of the unsecured creditors' committee and other parties involved in the Chapter 11 process.Jul 2, 2020

 

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On 6/12/2021 at 8:13 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Just trying to understand why you think a resurrected being, contrary to doctrine, is inherently subject to death. 
 

Afterthought added later: Death is not a part of eternity. It is a condition of mortality. Spirits never die, nor do resurrected or translated beings. 

It’s not a matter of something keeping them alive. It’s a matter of death being nonexistent in the realm in which they dwell. 

If God is a glorified man, and we become like God what happens when this Universe ends. It will end. As will this earth, which is supposedly to become a celestial glory. 5 billion years from now the earth will end. Seems like physical beings will end with it.  Is it not LDS doctrine that God is subject to the laws of the Universe?  So death may be part of this "eternity."

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50 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If God is a glorified man, and we become like God what happens when this Universe ends. It will end. As will this earth, which is supposedly to become a celestial glory. 5 billion years from now the earth will end. Seems like physical beings will end with it.  Is it not LDS doctrine that God is subject to the laws of the Universe?  So death may be part of this "eternity."

You're assuming that God is contained within the bounds of this universe.  If God created the universe then it would make sense that He has an existence outside and independent of what we are able to observe.

Edited by ksfisher
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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

You're assuming that God is contained within the bounds of this universe.  If God created the universe then it would make sense that He has an existence outside and independent of what we are able to observe.

I di not think Mormon theology adopted the orthodox idea that God exists outside of time and space.

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12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I di not think Mormon theology adopted the orthodox idea that God exists outside of time and space.

There may be more to whatever is time and space than we realize. If what we call our universe is within another universe, God could have had something to sit on while creating our oasis. 

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9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I di not think Mormon theology adopted the orthodox idea that God exists outside of time and space.

If we believe that God is the creator then there must have been someplace that He existed before He created our physical universe.  It don't know if that's the orthodox view of things, but it seems like common sense to me.

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Speaking of the universe...this is something I think everyone can benefit from watching...true beauty, and it is not all spirals and swirls...

 

 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

If God is a glorified man, and we become like God what happens when this Universe ends. It will end. As will this earth, which is supposedly to become a celestial glory. 5 billion years from now the earth will end. Seems like physical beings will end with it.  Is it not LDS doctrine that God is subject to the laws of the Universe?  So death may be part of this "eternity."

This morning I was working on a motion to dismiss in a case filed in state court in Montana.  I'm struggling to understand how or if a state statute, the "Unfair Trade Practices and Consumer Protection {Act}," applies in a nonjudicial context.  I'm just not seeing the answer.

If I struggle to comprehend such, comparably speaking, lightweight issues, I have no problem with not understanding issues of far more complexity and magnitude.  In fact, we are commanded to, in essence, be content with not knowing, well, quite a bit of stuff:

Quote

"Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."  (Mosiah 4:9)

"But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things."  (2 Nephi 2:24)

"But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen."  (1 Nephi 9:6)

"O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it."  (2 Nephi 9:20)

"And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will."  (Words of Mormon 1:7)

The day will come when all will be revealed to us, and we will have the means to comprehend such things.  Meanwhile, "we walk by faith, not by sight."  (2 Cor. 5:7)

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

There may be more to whatever is time and space than we realize. If what we call our universe is within another universe, God could have had something to sit on while creating our oasis. 

Do you have anything authoritive that demonstrates this?

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

This morning I was working on a motion to dismiss in a case filed in state court in Montana.  I'm struggling to understand how or if a state statute, the "Unfair Trade Practices and Consumer Protection {Act}," applies in a nonjudicial context.  I'm just not seeing the answer.

If I struggle to comprehend such, comparably speaking, lightweight issues, I have no problem with not understanding issues of far more complexity and magnitude.  In fact, we are commanded to, in essence, be content with not knowing, well, quite a bit of stuff:

The day will come when all will be revealed to us, and we will have the means to comprehend such things.  Meanwhile, "we walk by faith, not by sight."  (2 Cor. 5:7)

Thanks,

-Smac

So my idea that at least what the LDS church teaches about God being anthropomorphic and subject to the physical laws of the universe is not unreasonable.  So you just go by faith which means you have no answer.  God and all those who become gods may end in the heat death of the universe.

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11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Do you have anything authoritive that demonstrates this?

As soon as you can show how we can prove something exists outside of the universe or cannot exists, I will be happy to try and find documentation that something could exist outside our universe. 
 

Just in case you misunderstood, I am not claiming this as some scientific fact. It is a unfalsifiable philosophical concept at most imo. 

Edited by Calm
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10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

God and all those who become gods may end in the heat death of the universe.

That is a possibility based on what we now know...but our knowledge of what is out there is so, very, very limited. 

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