2BizE Posted April 21, 2021 Posted April 21, 2021 This type of violence against property is an abomination. It is really violence and hatred toward a group of people and cannot be tolerated in society.
poptart Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) On 4/21/2021 at 3:49 AM, AtlanticMike said: Great idea Scott. I wish they would let parents volunteer and be watchman at schools while school was in session. I know in my area there would be 10 or 20 parents, grand parents hanging out at every school inside and outside. Doesn't that seem like common sense? I guess they don't want us average folks stepping on government toes. Huh, that's rare most parents I knew here acted like it was the government and societies job to raise and protect their children. People here need more people like you, it's foolish to expect those outside of your own personal world to do your job as a parent, people have seen how that's worked out in this country for the past few decades and well, here they are. As an aside, observation i've made. It seems like once word gets out of a community that does like you've suggested, transplants descent like a plague of carpetbaggers to exploit and eventually ruin it. There's a few upper class areas around me, the kind where people pay for it all with debt. Anyway, it used to be kind of like some Utah communities, neighbors and others would act as volunteer neighborhood security and what not. Guess what? After a decade or so of transplants who claim to be just like people here were we now have to deal with the same mess the transplants fled from. Big surprise they're throwing a hissy fit at the cities for outvoting them now and the people who's good will they've burned won't raise a finger for them anymore. That's what worries me about Utah, that and when I see people here and elsewhere thinking they'll just "convert" them, lol have fun with that. I've seen it at a few of the wards I went to years ago, they'd convert and either right off the bat want the bishops storehouse to supply them with everything or join ward groups and just dump their entitled brats off for everyone else to deal with, the kind who can do no wrong and of course are on a ton of psyche meds and have been diagnosed with all kinds of things. I feel for you guys, while a lot of you say the Church is true, my understanding is Joseph Smith and your prophets still expect people to do their share like any functional community does. In that sense I agree on the true part, you want something you have to work for it or in the Christian religions case, meet God half way. How you fix it short of my solution (letting it all collapse and watch them fight and tear each other apart as has happened in the Bible and BOM) is beyond me. Then again, I am the outsider looking in. Edited April 22, 2021 by poptart
AtlanticMike Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 4 hours ago, poptart said: Huh, that's rare most parents I knew here acted like it was the government and societies job to raise and protect their children. As busy as I am I would make sure to volunteer at schools if it would stop school shootings. Something else I've always wondered. In my area police departments have precincts spread around the cities, actual buildings only used for police business. Why not just have the police operate from schools so there's a constant police presence 24/7? Government has become do ridiculous.
MiserereNobis Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 3:49 AM, AtlanticMike said: Great idea Scott. I wish they would let parents volunteer and be watchman at schools while school was in session. I know in my area there would be 10 or 20 parents, grand parents hanging out at every school inside and outside. Doesn't that seem like common sense? I guess they don't want us average folks stepping on government toes. Pre-pandemic times parents were allowed to visit my school anytime they wanted. They just had to sign in at the front, have ID checked, and get a visitor badge. If a parent wanted to be in the school on a regular basis, they needed to fill out a packet and get a background check done. 34 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: As busy as I am I would make sure to volunteer at schools if it would stop school shootings. Something else I've always wondered. In my area police departments have precincts spread around the cities, actual buildings only used for police business. Why not just have the police operate from schools so there's a constant police presence 24/7? Government has become do ridiculous. My school has an SRO (school resource officer) here all day, so there is a police presence. He's a nice guy, too. He joined a class discussion of mine over Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience." It was good to get his perspective on acts of civil disobedience. Turns out he was one of the officers at the BLM protest I attended last summer where we blocked an intersection for 8 minutes. I thanked him for not arresting me. He laughed and said they had planned carefully for the march to make sure traffic could go where it needed to and that protestors could engage in non-violent civil disobedience. Ok, bell is about to ring. I'm off to indoctrinate my students in the ways of godless Marxism! (oh, I mean to say that we are analyzing the tenets of modernism as they show up in "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" by T.S. Eliot). 2
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 44 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Pre-pandemic times parents were allowed to visit my school anytime they wanted. They just had to sign in at the front, have ID checked, and get a visitor badge. If a parent wanted to be in the school on a regular basis, they needed to fill out a packet and get a background check done. My school has an SRO (school resource officer) here all day, so there is a police presence. He's a nice guy, too. He joined a class discussion of mine over Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience." It was good to get his perspective on acts of civil disobedience. Turns out he was one of the officers at the BLM protest I attended last summer where we blocked an intersection for 8 minutes. I thanked him for not arresting me. He laughed and said they had planned carefully for the march to make sure traffic could go where it needed to and that protestors could engage in non-violent civil disobedience. Ok, bell is about to ring. I'm off to indoctrinate my students in the ways of godless Marxism! (oh, I mean to say that we are analyzing the tenets of modernism as they show up in "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" by T.S. Eliot). MN, you’re one of my favorite posters here, but I’ve got to say I don’t approve of the blocking of intersections, no matter how just you think your cause is. It leads to tension, anger, fear and violence like we saw in Provo last year, where the hothead shot at the driver point blank because he wouldn’t sit there and let the mob terrorize him and vandalize his car. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 5 hours ago, poptart said: Anyway, it used to be kind of like some Utah communities, neighbors and others would act as volunteer neighborhood security and what not. Guess what? After a decade or so of transplants who claim to be just like people here were we now have to deal with the same mess the transplants fled from. Big surprise they're throwing a hissy fit at the cities for outvoting them now and the people who's good will they've burned won't raise a finger for them anymore. An acquaintance of mine says he doesn’t like transplants moving in if they “bring their stupid voting habits with them.”
poptart Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: As busy as I am I would make sure to volunteer at schools if it would stop school shootings. Something else I've always wondered. In my area police departments have precincts spread around the cities, actual buildings only used for police business. Why not just have the police operate from schools so there's a constant police presence 24/7? Government has become do ridiculous. I like Japan's model, the police are active in the community. That and most are usually black belts in one martial art, they often act as instructors for children. Thing is, that's Japan a homogenous society the USA is too individualistic and entitled wouldn't work. How This Ancient Martial Art Helps Japanese Police Fight Crime - YouTube One of the neater Mormon ads I've seen. I'm a Mormon, a Firefighter, and a Kendo Master - YouTube Only states I've seen this work, CA, WA and HI because of the high Asian population and how people will assimilate/get along more. I have friends with grown parents who volunteered for their kids sports, used to irritate them how parents would be late all the time picking their kids up and had no respect for anything. That's the culture here. 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: An acquaintance of mine says he doesn’t like transplants moving in if they “bring their stupid voting habits with them.” That's a lot of places nowadays, sadly it sure seems like people vote to spite the other guy instead of the greater good. Edited April 22, 2021 by poptart
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: MN, you’re one of my favorite posters here, but I’ve got to say I don’t approve of the blocking of intersections, no matter how just you think your cause is. It leads to tension, anger, fear and violence like we saw in Provo last year, where the hothead shot at the driver point blank because he wouldn’t sit there and let the mob terrorize him and vandalize his car. There wasn’t a police presence at the intersection at that time which may have made a great deal of difference. Not saying it will in every case as there is at times violence because police are present even, but if the driver had been willing to wait for police direction before turning and police were preventing cars from being mobbed, it seems likely to me the shooting wouldn’t have happened given the guy claims iirc he was trying to stop protestors from being run over by the car (the protestors didn’t surround the car until it was trying to turn...which it had a legal right to do normally, though not if there were people in the crosswalk I believe as there were). Nonviolent Civil disobedience that does not cause discomfort of some sort is likely to be ineffective Imo. Blocking of intersections as long as not too long should be acceptable in our society Imo and drivers should be willing to wait an extra 5 or 10 minutes before proceeding. Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Calm said: There wasn’t a police presence at the intersection at that time which may have made a great deal of difference. Not saying it will in every case as there is at times violence because police are present even, but if the driver had been willing to wait for police direction before turning and police were preventing cars from being mobbed, it seems likely to me the shooting wouldn’t have happened given the guy claims iirc he was trying to stop protestors from being run over by the car (the protestors didn’t surround the car until it was trying to turn...which it had a legal right to do normally, though not if there were people in the crosswalk I believe as there were). Nonviolent Civil disobedience that does not cause discomfort of some sort is likely to be ineffective Imo. Blocking of intersections as long as not too long should be acceptable in our society Imo and drivers should be willing to wait an extra 5 or 10 minutes before proceeding. How could he have “waited for police direction” if, as you say, there was no police presence and there was no effort being made to enforce the law against impeding traffic? How was he to know whether the wait would be five or 10 minutes or if the mob planned to occupy the intersection the whole night, growing more hostile and belligerent by the moment, possibly culminating in a Reginald Denny type scenario in which motorists are being pulled from their vehicles and beaten nearly to death? I think “civil disobedience” is a term hardly justified where innocent bystanders and passersby are being menaced and having their rights infringed upon. If rationalizing disobedience is the order of the day here, I’d say the motorist has as much right as anyone to be disobedient under the circumstances by inching his way past an unruly and hostile mob so as to vacate the premises as soon as possible. He didn’t speed up until after he was shot. Added later: I wouldn’t condone it if police or anyone else shot at civilly disobedient protesters. I don’t see why I should condone rioters shooting at passersby who disobey the rioters’ insistence that the passersby give up their own rights. Edited April 23, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: How could he have “waited for police direction” if, as you say, there was no police presence and there was no effort being made to enforce the law against impeding traffic? I am saying there are times I think nonviolent blocking of intersections can be appropriate and workable. One requirement to be safe (at least as safe as it would be if a protest was not taking place) would be a police presence to direct traffic. Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm
MiserereNobis Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: MN, you’re one of my favorite posters here, but I’ve got to say I don’t approve of the blocking of intersections, no matter how just you think your cause is. It leads to tension, anger, fear and violence like we saw in Provo last year, where the hothead shot at the driver point blank because he wouldn’t sit there and let the mob terrorize him and vandalize his car. Hey Scott, thanks! We don't need to derail the thread into a discussion about civil disobedience, but I'll point out some differences between the two events. The protest I attended was planned in advance and the police were notified. The police rerouted traffic away from the intersection (one of the busiest in the city). We knelt in the intersection for 8 minutes. I wasn't involved in any of the planning or anything, I just showed up to support it after it was advertised. The idea was that people can wait in their cars for 8 minutes to honor a man who had been murdered by a police officer and to draw attention to the issue of police abuse. There was no violence or threatening of cars. After the 8 minutes, we got back on the sidewalks and continued to march. Yes, we were breaking rules by being in the intersection, but I think the police had the right approach to it. They kept everyone safe and allowed us to do it. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Hey Scott, thanks! We don't need to derail the thread into a discussion about civil disobedience, but I'll point out some differences between the two events. The protest I attended was planned in advance and the police were notified. The police rerouted traffic away from the intersection (one of the busiest in the city). We knelt in the intersection for 8 minutes. I wasn't involved in any of the planning or anything, I just showed up to support it after it was advertised. The idea was that people can wait in their cars for 8 minutes to honor a man who had been murdered by a police officer and to draw attention to the issue of police abuse. There was no violence or threatening of cars. After the 8 minutes, we got back on the sidewalks and continued to march. Yes, we were breaking rules by being in the intersection, but I think the police had the right approach to it. They kept everyone safe and allowed us to do it. Thanks. Yes, I acknowledge there was a marked difference between the event you describe and the incident in Provo where a man was injured by a deliberate and point-blank gunshot and the alleged assailant was charged with attempted murder. I still don’t condone the behavior of protesters who interfere with others’ rights by, among other things, blocking or hindering their passage on public streets, highways or walkways. Edited April 23, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 7 hours ago, Calm said: I am saying there are times I think nonviolent blocking of intersections can be appropriate and workable. One requirement to be safe (at least as safe as it would be if a protest was not taking place) would be a police presence to direct traffic. There are time, place and manner procedures that allow this to happen, such as obtaining a permit in advance that provides for a police presence to keep order. A parade or street festival, for example, hinders or disrupts traffic for a time, but not unlawfully. A protest or demonstration ceases to be peaceful (though it might stop short of violence) the moment others’ rights are unlawfully infringed upon; by definition, the peace is thereby disrupted. 1
InCognitus Posted April 24, 2021 Posted April 24, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 1:59 PM, Scott Lloyd said: An acquaintance of mine says he doesn’t like transplants moving in if they “bring their stupid voting habits with them.” I've seen similar feelings living in Arizona (although not quite that extreme), since we get a lot of transplants here. But when I read your post, it hit me that this partially explains the attitude of the people living in Missouri in the 1830's when "the Mormons" started moving in.
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