do you want to serve an ecumenical mission?

[Bernard Gui]

I can imagine ecumenical mission involving leaders of many faiths joining together to call  for an increase in faith, hope, and charity throughout the land. Perhaps something like a speaking tour, social media campaign, etc. perhaps along the line of President Nelson’s tours.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Islander]

On 4/8/2021 at 11:49 AM, rongo said:

What would that look like in practice, though? We would have to back way off of exclusive truth claims/authority with a "ecumenical mission." If the goal is to appear more like other Christian churches, that's one thing. If it's seeking to gather Israel through the ordinances of the priesthood and the temple, that doesn't mesh with ecumenism. 

You are absolutely right. Latter-day Saints WILL have to compromise on a host of issues in the name of "unity" which it amounts to capitulating on ALL excusive claims to the truth of the Restoration. Not to mention many other issues that are actually even at odd with protestant basic theology.

In sum, there is no practical way to do it.

[Duncan]

I don't get why it wouldn't work. Our Stake does service at a soup Kitchen and recently had Muslims pray in all of our Church buildings for Ramadan. The goal is to feed the poor, LDS or otherwise and more people showing up the better. The only thing you sacrifice is your time, none of this compromising your beliefs unless you don't believe Christ helped poor people? The Muslims community didn't bother anyone and we didn't bother them, so what's the issue? 

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I don't get why it wouldn't work. Our Stake ... recently had Muslims pray in all of our Church buildings for Ramadan.

I believe many of our priesthood would have actual conniptions, possibly burst into superheated plasma, were this to happen.

[Duncan]

14 minutes ago, Chum said:

I believe many of our priesthood would have actual conniptions, possibly burst into superheated plasma, were this to happen.

i'd say let them foam at the mouth! hahahahha! it was organized by a former Stake Presidency member and now Counselour in the Mission Presidency. I don't know how many people knew about it but they followed all of the rules of the covid situation and the buildings were fine, as far as I know and so what is the harm really. Honestly though the dirtiest situations in our buildings are courtesy of the missionaries hahahahhaa!

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:00 PM, Zeniff said:

Ecumenism 101:  promoting unity among the world's Christian Churches by preaching what our church has in common with each one of their churches, one church at a time.  

Ecumenism 201: with that level 101 unity in our minds, we begin to teach them the additional things our Lord has taught us while they teach us any additional teachings our Lord has taught them.

Ecumenism 301: we focus more on helping everyone see how our Lord is and has been trying to help all of us become as united as he is with our Father in heaven

And if our Lord teaches any of us anything else, we share that with everybody else everywhere too.

Be careful what you wish for. At its heart, ecumenism strives not just for tolerance and mutual cooperation but unification in all Christian churches and sects. At what point would this require abandonment of certain indispensable aspects of the restored Church of Jesus Christ? 
 

Not sure whether the word had been coined back then, but I’m thinking the Council at Nicaea was, in the beginning at least, ecumenical in concept or spirit. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be careful what you wish for. At its heart, ecumenism strives not just for tolerance and mutual cooperation but unification in all Christian churches and sects. At what point would this require abandonment of certain indispensable aspects of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. 
 

Not sure whether the word had been coined back then, but I’m thinking the Council at Nicaea was, in the beginning at least, ecumenical in concept or spirit. 

You put your finger on the problem.

It isn't a lack of desire for unity that calls for a rejection of ecumenism, but rather a desire for real, full, complete unity. Ecumenism believes that by erasing distinctive traits, the Christians can all arrive at shared core beliefs.

This might be true, BUT there are practical difficulties to being truly one. We can acknowledge shared core beliefs...and not hate. But our distinctives are not optional...they are essential. What Catholic or LDS could agree that valid priestly ordinances are non-essential? What Evangelical could admit that it is permissible to believe in an authoritative priesthood that is exclusive to all others?

In my opinion, this is what separates LDS and Catholics, from any meaningful ecumenical discussions with other Christians.

[3DOP]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:30 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Rev. Dr. Andrew Teal and Elder Jeffrey Holland discussed serving a mission together. That would be an interesting development. Perhaps some of us here could partner up with our non-LDS board friends and go do some good. Who’s game?

“‘Wouldn’t it be great to actually go on a mission together? I’d be delighted to do that,’ the Rev. Dr. Andrew Teal, a theologian of the Church of England, said to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The idea underscored the Rev. Dr. Teal’s zeal to heal rifts between Christian faiths and the love and friendship he and Elder Holland have shared since they participated in a public theological exchange at the University Church of St. Mary the Virgin in Oxford on Thanksgiving 2018.” 

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/4/7/22370083/anglican-priest-suggests-mission-with-latter-day-saint-apostle-elder-holland-lds-byu

Zeal to Heal. Good slogan. 

No. I have to oppose ecumenism.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

You put your finger on the problem.

It isn't a lack of desire for unity that calls for a rejection of ecumenism, but rather a desire for real, full, complete unity. Ecumenism believes that by erasing distinctive traits, the Christians can all arrive at shared core beliefs.

This might be true, BUT there are practical difficulties to being truly one. We can acknowledge shared core beliefs...and not hate. But our distinctives are not optional...they are essential. What Catholic or LDS could agree that valid priestly ordinances are non-essential? What Evangelical could admit that it is permissible to believe in an authoritative priesthood that is exclusive to all others?

In my opinion, this is what separates LDS and Catholics, from any meaningful ecumenical discussions with other Christians.

Well stated. 
 

I fear that all too many people among my own faith group as well as others who pay lip service to ecumenism don’t truly understand what it means. 

[Robert F. Smith]

FAIR Conference is coming up August 4-6 this year in Provo, and Scott Gordon has announced that

Quote

"we are pleased to have a guest speaker, Dr. Carl Trueman. Dr. Trueman is not a Latter-day Saint but is an Evangelical Scholar. He has written a number of books including "The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution," and "The Real Scandal of the Evangelical Mind." I am not sure how many other books he has written, but on Amazon I counted 37 listed under his name – all of which are highly rated. When I brought up his name to several Latter-day Saint scholars, they all asked me, "How did you get him?" and they wanted to know how to sign up for our conference. I have assured Dr. Trueman that we would love to hear his point of view as a conservative Evangelical Christian as all denominations are now struggling with these social issues and our youth."

I think we can learn a lot by spending some time with non-LDS clerics.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Chum said:

I believe many of our priesthood would have actual conniptions, possibly burst into superheated plasma, were this to happen.

LDS chapels have been used by Jews, Muslims, and others for their religious services when their synagogues, mosques, etc., have been destroyed.  I have never heard of any LDS members objecting.  Many of our wards and stakes participate in local religious councils to see what can be done to aid the homeless or hungry.  They have treated us well, and we do likewise.  It's called the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Chum]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

LDS chapels have been used by Jews, Muslims, and others for their religious services when their synagogues, mosques, etc., have been destroyed.  I have never heard of any LDS members objecting.

This sounds correct. Some parts of the country harbor strong anti-Muslim sentiments and some do not.

Consider an area with overt hostility to Islam: If Joe Priesthoodholder were to suggest a Muslim service in their chapel, I would expect strong vocal pushback from some brethren. If the stake presidency to suggest the same thing a week later, I'd expect some of those same voices to praise the initiative and a few to be upset about it.

I wouldn't expect anyone to publicly complain about it, however.

My ward has been so cloistered that non-member merit badge counselors were strictly taboo, as was most ward interaction with the community. That mindset waxes and wanes but never goes away.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Chum said:

This sounds correct. Some parts of the country harbor strong anti-Muslim sentiments and some do not.

Consider an area with overt hostility to Islam: If Joe Priesthoodholder were to suggest a Muslim service in their chapel, I would expect strong vocal pushback from some brethren. If the stake presidency to suggest the same thing a week later, I'd expect some of those same voices to praise the initiative and a few to be upset about it.

I wouldn't expect anyone to publicly complain about it, however.

My ward has been so cloistered that non-member merit badge counselors were strictly taboo, as was most ward interaction with the community. That mindset waxes and wanes but never goes away.

Sounds about right.  I know a guy here in Utah Valley (a fellow Marine) who has a visceral hatred for Muslims of any kind.  I don't even bother to bring up the subject.  Otherwise, he's the nicest guy you'd ever care to meet.

When I lived in the Middle East, I found Muslims very cordial and with tremendous hospitality.  But mention Jews and Israel, and they would lose any sense of civility.

[Jamie]

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

You put your finger on the problem.

It isn't a lack of desire for unity that calls for a rejection of ecumenism, but rather a desire for real, full, complete unity. Ecumenism believes that by erasing distinctive traits, the Christians can all arrive at shared core beliefs.

Which Christian group, specifically, believes distinctive traits should be erased, including their own distinctive traits that distinguish their group from all other Christian groups?  I don't think any Christian group seeks to erase their own traits from the collective of Christianity.  I think ecumenism is all about trying to include all who believe they are Christians under the banner of Christianity.  Like how Baptists and Methodists and Lutherans and Catholics and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all want to be considered Christians. 

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

This might be true, BUT there are practical difficulties to being truly one. We can acknowledge shared core beliefs...and not hate. But our distinctives are not optional...they are essential. What Catholic or LDS could agree that valid priestly ordinances are non-essential?

No, not non-essential, but we all should agree that all; valid priestly ordinances are essential.  And then we would need to determine which ordinances are valid, even if only in each sub-group of Christianity if not the collective.

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

What Evangelical could admit that it is permissible to believe in an authoritative priesthood that is exclusive to all others?

Only those who believe the priesthood they have is authori\tative.

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

In my opinion, this is what separates LDS and Catholics, from any meaningful ecumenical discussions with other Christians.

I agree... from accepting each person who believes he or she is a Christian under the umbrella of Christianity.  For some reason some Christians seem to feel justified in saying some are not Christians who say they are Christians.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Which Christian group, specifically, believes distinctive traits should be erased, including their own distinctive traits that distinguish their group from all other Christian groups?  I don't think any Christian group seeks to erase their own traits from the collective of Christianity.  I think ecumenism is all about trying to include all who believe they are Christians under the banner of Christianity.  Like how Baptists and Methodists and Lutherans and Catholics and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all want to be considered Christians. 

No, not non-essential, but we all should agree that all; valid priestly ordinances are essential.  And then we would need to determine which ordinances are valid, even if only in each sub-group of Christianity if not the collective.

Only those who believe the priesthood they have is authori\tative.

I agree... from accepting each person who believes he or she is a Christian under the umbrella of Christianity.  For some reason some Christians seem to feel justified in saying some are not Christians who say they are Christians.

What you describe here is tolerance for diversity of belief — a worthy goal, yes — but it is not by definition ecumenism. 

[Jamie]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What you describe here is tolerance for diversity of belief — a worthy goal, yes — but it is not by definition ecumenism. 

ec·u·me·nism

the principle or aim of promoting unity among the world's Christian Churches.

 

 

People are inherently not the same as other people, as in people are different, so the only way I can see for all people to be united as Christians is by all people becoming Christians, and even if all people do, all people will still be different.

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Jamie said:

ec·u·me·nism

the principle or aim of promoting unity among the world's Christian Churches.

 

 

People are inherently not the same as other people, as in people are different, so the only way I can see for all people to be united as Christians is by all people becoming Christians, and even if all people do, all people will still be different.

The definition doesn't say all people are united as Christians. It says that all Christian Churches are united. All members of Christian Churches are already Christians, so becoming Christian isn't the goal of ecumenism. Its goal is to unite by erasing distinctions between the Christian Churches. As 3DOP pointed out, how do you unite LDS with protestants? It's impossible, unless one group (or both) relinquishes one or more of its distinct claims.

How would Catholics and LDS unite when we both lay claim to an exclusive priesthood? Either Catholics have it or LDS have it -- we both don't. A claim that we both have it or that an exclusive priesthood is not necessary would require both of us to relinquish our distinct claims.

Edited May 17, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[Jamie]

27 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The definition doesn't say all people are united as Christians. It says that all Christian Churches are united. All members of Christian Churches are already Christians, so becoming Christian isn't the goal of ecumenism. Its goal is to unite by erasing distinctions between the Christian Churches. As 3DOP pointed out, how do you unite LDS with protestants? It's impossible, unless one group (or both) relinquishes one or more of its distinct claims.

How would Catholics and LDS unite when we both lay claim to an exclusive priesthood? Either Catholics have it or LDS have it -- we both don't. A claim that we both have it or that an exclusive priesthood is not necessary would require both of us to relinquish our distinct claims.

Any church is a group of people so when we talk about promoting unity among all Christian Churches we are talking about promoting unity among all of those people in those churches. 

Considering all of those people to be Christians is one way to promote that unity.  And considering anyone who has any authority from Christ to do anything is one way to say anyone in any church has the Lord's priesthood.

A claim to have our Lord's priesthood doesn't convey his priesthood.  Someone may claim to have it but not really have it.  So only those who really have it actually have it and our Lord is probably the only one qualified to act as final judge on who really has it.

[MiserereNobis]

54 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Any church is a group of people so when we talk about promoting unity among all Christian Churches we are talking about promoting unity among all of those people in those churches. 

Considering all of those people to be Christians is one way to promote that unity.  And considering anyone who has any authority from Christ to do anything is one way to say anyone in any church has the Lord's priesthood.

A claim to have our Lord's priesthood doesn't convey his priesthood.  Someone may claim to have it but not really have it.  So only those who really have it actually have it and our Lord is probably the only one qualified to act as final judge on who really has it.

Ahab, you don't understand ecumenism.

[Jamie]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ahab, you don't understand ecumenism.

Let's just say your understanding is different than my understanding of what ecumenism is, just as your understanding is different than my understanding of what is involved in becoming a member of our Lord's one and only true church.