Epigenetics - Nature, Nurture, and Gays

[MrShorty]

@california boy I regret some of this in my past, but your comment reminded me of part of my own journey towards better understanding this issue. Many years ago, I picked up David Schnarch's "Resurrecting Sex" to see what he had to say about it. It didn't take very long before I discovered that he included same sex couples as case studies to illustrate his principles. Initially I was turned off of the book because it felt inappropriate to me to treat same sex and opposite couples as if they share substantially similar dynamics. I regret my initial attitude there, but it was my first real introduction to the idea that same sex couples in monogamous, lifelong, committed relationships are substantially the same as opposite sex couples in monogamous, lifelong, committed relationships. If such relationships are substantially similar in their dynamics and how they are "people growing machines" (David Schnarch's words), then I see no reason why same sex marriage would not fulfill the same purposes in people's lives as opposite sex marriages.

Edited February 9, 2021 by MrShorty

[Tacenda]

 

 

On 2/8/2021 at 12:02 PM, Ahab said:

Not scary at all, from my perspective.  I still see both sexes as sexually attractive, each in their own way, with some who are more sexually attractive to me than some others.  And I can still choose to be/act however I want to be/act.

I've been/acted homosexual before and I could still choose to be/act homosexual now.  And I can also choose to be/act as a heterosexual is/acts, sexually, if and whenever I want to be.  Not scary at all to me that I have the power to be/act however I want to be.

Well, Ahab, what you are describing is bisexuality. Or correct if wrong.

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Your off button is not working

It works as it is supposed too, only when "I" turn it off.  And I can turn it back on anytime I want to.

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, california boy said:

Once again, if it was just about sex and carnal pleasures, then it wouldn't matter what gender you had sex with.  But it is not.  I knew I was gay when I was 12.  I did what the Church told me to do and promised that I would no longer be gay if I married.  That turned out to be a lie.  

I was married for over 20 years because I stayed in that marriage until my children were out of the house.  But during all that time, I never felt anything like when I am with a person of the same gender.  The first time I was with my now partner, all the sudden, this thing called love changed from friendship type love to that deep I want to be with you forever love.  And this is long before I ever had sex with him.  If it was just about sex and feeling good, why did that never happen?  My life certainly would have been much easier.  

God does know what is best.  The peace of mind that I have with my partner now never happened in the 20 years of marriage to a woman.

 

I understand exactly what is at work in that kind of thing but that is entirely beside the point of whether or not you would ever believe what I tell you or have told you. 

Loving someone of both genders is easy when you are able to see in them something you love or can love.  It is impossible only when there is nothing about them you love.,

[california boy]

44 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I understand exactly what is at work in that kind of thing but that is entirely beside the point of whether or not you would ever believe what I tell you or have told you. 

Loving someone of both genders is easy when you are able to see in them something you love or can love.  It is impossible only when there is nothing about them you love.,

You do realize I was married to a woman for over 20 years.  It is not like I didn't try to make it work.   It is not like we had any animosity towards each other either.  We are still good friends.  I still see her.  I still help her with projects she needs done.  But our relationship never progressed from the day I met her.  We were friends when we married.  We were friends when we were married.  We remain friends.  

On the other hand, within a week of meeting my partner, I felt this connection with him that I never experienced in all those years of marriage.  For the first time, our relationship just felt right.  It felt like this is the path that God wanted me on.  I am eternally grateful for the courage of my ex wife to help me find that path.  It truly shows how good of friend she is.

I am gay, not bisexual.  There is a difference.

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, california boy said:

There doesn't seem to be much movement in the straight community to want to "fix" themselves and become gay.  I wonder why?  Everyone knows being gay is way more fun than being straight.  

 

Well the answer to your question is Yes, many would rather be gay than straight.  Because even with the threat of execution, they still find ways to connect with someone of the same sex in order to have that love and bonding that all humans need and long for, even if it means their life.

Throwing gays off the tops of buildings, hanging them, torturing them, putting them in prison, stoning them, caneing them in public to the point of near death,  burning them alive, throwing acid on their faces, tying them up and dragging them behind their cars hasn't eradicated those that are attracted to the same sex.   And preventing gay members of the Church from never being able to marry someone of the same sex has not turned those members straight.  Every gay member has a choice: Either stay in the church and never have any type of human companionship that marriage brings, or leave the Church and find happiness and companionship with someone of the same sex.  It has been my experience that the vast majority of gay members leave the Church.  

There us more to life than personal fulfillment, more to marriage than companionship and fun, whatever that was supposed to mean.

I wish you the best, but I felt I needed to say that.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There us more to life than personal fulfillment, more to marriage than companionship and fun, whatever that was supposed to mean.

I wish you the best, but I felt I needed to say that.

I use this analogy over and over again. It's a big lesson on empathy.

What if you were told that you should only marry the same sex as you? And you go ahead with it but it doesn't seem right, but that's what you've been told to do and that it would be sinful to marry someone of the opposite sex. 

Then one day you realize that there is a way out and you can marry or be with the opposite sex, the sex you've been attracted to most of your life. And you finally feel normal again. Or where you belonged forever ago, and all that anguish over feeling like something is wrong with you, is over.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, california boy said:

When I talked to my Bishop about this I asked him if I could just live with another man.  Not have sex with him at all, but still love him and care for him.  He said no.  I asked him what laws of God would I be breaking.  He said, it was the whole appearance of evil.  It was at that moment that I knew I could no longe be a part of the Church.

That idea is nonsense.

I know many men who live with other men and no one thinks anything about it. These people are called "roomates". Others are called "Mission Companions".  Heck in college I lived with 7 guys in a huge house, and right now in our ward we have three men sharing a three bedroom house. No biggie! Great way to save $ for tithing!

It's sad that he told you that, but sadder, imo, that you listened.

If prophets are not infallible, bishops are even more..... not infallible.

Trust me. I was one myself once, and they say that technically still am!

And so I hereby declare my infallibility, and everyone here must believe what I tell them! 🤯

And I have a great business opportunity here that could make everyone rich...

😈

Edited February 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That idea is nonsense.

I know many men who live with other men and no one thinks anything about it. These people are called "roomates". Others are called "Mission Companions".  Heck in college I lived with 7 guys in a huge house, and right now in our ward we have three men sharing a three bedroom house. No biggie! Great way to save $ for tithing!

It's sad that he told you that, but sadder, imo, that you listened.

If prophets are not infallible, bishops are even more..... not infallible.

Trust me. I was one myself once, and they say that technically still am!

And so I hereby declare my infallibility, and everyone here must believe what I tell them! 🤯

And I have a great business opportunity here that could make everyone rich...

😈

I doubt what he wanted was analogous to a roommate situation.

Edit: And no, I am not talking about just sex.

Edited February 10, 2021 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This is a common statement in the Church, but I'm no longer convinced that it adequately addresses the real question. It's as if we believe that, in spite of all of our theology of eternally blissful marriages and families and a strongly taught belief that God wants us to marry, that the only way we can successfully lure people into this blissful trap is with the carrot of sex.

I don't really believe this anymore. As @california boy mentioned, marriage isn't always about sex. There are a variety of needs/wants/desires that fuel peoples' choices to marry (or enter into exclusive long term relationships that look like marriage even if they lack the official government issued paper). Sex, I'm sure, figures into the economics in different ways and at different levels for different people, but I don't think it is wise to teach that sex is the only factor at play in the decision to marry or pursue marriage.

I think you are making a mistake in reducing attraction to being solely about sexual desire. Turn off attraction and it is unlikely you will have a lot of people angling for marriage.

[The Nehor]

On 2/8/2021 at 4:42 PM, Ahab said:

I am saying that because I think everyone can do what I have done, if they really want to, and I would rather think they can than think they simply can't.  But then again, I dunno, maybe some people really can't see what I see, no matter how hard they may try.

That is ridiculous. Does it apply everywhere? Could you swim like Michael Phelps if you just tried hard enough? Could everyone be a chess grandmaster if they just tried hard enough? Can someone with ADD consistently compel themselves to focus if they just try hard enough? Can a psychopath feel emotional empathy if they just grit their teeth and try?

We can and should do all we can to improve ourselves but the idea the if you can do something anyone can is incredibly arrogant. It suggests that you are the marker through which all humanity should be measured. Either that or it is incredibly self-deprecating and you think you are the weakest human being that ever existed so that if you can do it it is so simple anyone could.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That idea is nonsense.

I know many men who live with other men and no one thinks anything about it. These people are called "roomates". Others are called "Mission Companions".  Heck in college I lived with 7 guys in a huge house, and right now in our ward we have three men sharing a three bedroom house. No biggie! Great way to save $ for tithing!

It's sad that he told you that, but sadder, imo, that you listened.

If prophets are not infallible, bishops are even more..... not infallible.

Trust me. I was one myself once, and they say that technically still am!

And so I hereby declare my infallibility, and everyone here must believe what I tell them! 🤯

And I have a great business opportunity here that could make everyone rich...

😈

Evidently it makes a difference if you are gay.  Maybe my bishop just thought it would be too much of a temptation.

Is it ok with the Church if members of the opposite sex are roommates?

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Evidently it makes a difference if you are gay.  Maybe my bishop just thought it would be too much of a temptation.

Is it ok with the Church if members of the opposite sex are roommates?

I would not have a problem with that.

I have never seen nor heard any policy against it, nor would I even think there might be. If they want to go to the temple, and pass the interview, it's nobody's business any more than having siblings.

Do we assume immorality if there are siblings of the opposite sex sharing a bedroom?

Of course not.

"Appearance of evil" is in the mind of the beholder, and says more about the person who imagines it than anyone else, imo.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is ridiculous. Does it apply everywhere? Could you swim like Michael Phelps if you just tried hard enough? Could everyone be a chess grandmaster if they just tried hard enough? Can someone with ADD consistently compel themselves to focus if they just try hard enough? Can a psychopath feel emotional empathy if they just grit their teeth and try?

We can and should do all we can to improve ourselves but the idea the if you can do something anyone can is incredibly arrogant. It suggests that you are the marker through which all humanity should be measured. Either that or it is incredibly self-deprecating and you think you are the weakest human being that ever existed so that if you can do it it is so simple anyone could.

I was talking about seeing everyone as sexually attractive in some way, as I can do and have done and expect to always be able to do.  And as I said, still seeing some as more or less attractive than some others. 

Anyway, that is what I was talking about, which doesn't seem to be what you are now talking about.

[Ahab]

21 hours ago, california boy said:

You do realize I was married to a woman for over 20 years.  It is not like I didn't try to make it work.   It is not like we had any animosity towards each other either.  We are still good friends.  I still see her.  I still help her with projects she needs done.  But our relationship never progressed from the day I met her.  We were friends when we married.  We were friends when we were married.  We remain friends.  

On the other hand, within a week of meeting my partner, I felt this connection with him that I never experienced in all those years of marriage.  For the first time, our relationship just felt right.  It felt like this is the path that God wanted me on.  I am eternally grateful for the courage of my ex wife to help me find that path.  It truly shows how good of friend she is.

I am gay, not bisexual.  There is a difference.

The difference between between someone labeled bisexual vs someone labeled homosexual is that one can see both sexes as sexually attractive in some way while the other sees only one sex, their same sex, as sexually attractive.

And as I told you before, I don't believe you never saw the woman you married as sexually attractive in some way, even if you did not like her sex, as a female, as much as you now like only your same sex, as a male.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I see no reason why same sex marriage would not fulfill the same purposes in people's lives as opposite sex marriages.

Up to a certain point, yes, but then the commonalities of purpose diverge upon acceptance of the Restored Gospel.

[MrShorty]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Up to a certain point, yes, but then the commonalities of purpose diverge upon acceptance of the Restored Gospel.

It's quite a divergence from the topic of epigenetics, but, ever since the Church's response to Obergefell, it has been fairly clear to me that I must not fully understand the purposes of sex and marriage as understood by the Restored Gospel (and I've been an active member now for close to half a century). I feel like this lack of understanding is at the heart of my confusion, but I have not found any good explanations that clear up the confusion.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I was talking about seeing everyone as sexually attractive in some way, as I can do and have done and expect to always be able to do.  And as I said, still seeing some as more or less attractive than some others. 

Anyway, that is what I was talking about, which doesn't seem to be what you are now talking about.

Nope, same thing.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Up to a certain point, yes, but then the commonalities of purpose diverge upon acceptance of the Restored Gospel.

Sounds like a bland CK.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

It's quite a divergence from the topic of epigenetics, but, ever since the Church's response to Obergefell, it has been fairly clear to me that I must not fully understand the purposes of sex and marriage as understood by the Restored Gospel (and I've been an active member now for close to half a century). I feel like this lack of understanding is at the heart of my confusion, but I have not found any good explanations that clear up the confusion.

The crux of the explanation, I think is the phrase, “we encourage all to consider these teachings (as in, “the doctrinal foundation of Church teachings on morality, marriage, and the family”) in the context of the Plan of Salvation and our Heavenly Father’s purposes in creating the earth and providing for our mortal birth and experience…” It is not a social, legal or civil rights explanation.

For me, the principle of complementary opposition (e.g., male and female; passage from one estate to the next, birth, both figuratively and literally, being but one example) is foundational in the pre-mortal, mortal, and eternal perspectives. These patterns are reflected in every estate.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-leaders-counsel-members-after-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision?lang=eng

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sounds like a bland CK.

Yeah, fortunately it is not though.

[Ahab]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:57 PM, Tacenda said:

I use this analogy over and over again. It's a big lesson on empathy.

What if you were told that you should only marry the same sex as you? And you go ahead with it but it doesn't seem right, but that's what you've been told to do and that it would be sinful to marry someone of the opposite sex. 

Then one day you realize that there is a way out and you can marry or be with the opposite sex, the sex you've been attracted to most of your life. And you finally feel normal again. Or where you belonged forever ago, and all that anguish over feeling like something is wrong with you, is over.

That analogy doesn't really show anything other than how to relate to someone who either does or does not do whatever they are told to do, including how to feel.

If you're trying to show why someone should not marry or have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, try this analogy instead:  Suppose you had the ability to see each person as a sexually attractive person, regardless of what sex (male/female) each person happened to be, and you were told that it was not good to have sexual relations with anyone of the same sex as yourself even if you truly loved that person and saw them as a sexually attractive person.  And then suppose you asked the person who said that would not be good why they said it would not be good, and that person then told you why it would not be good.  And also suppose that person was an expert on what is good and what is not good.  What would you do then?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The best outcome for all children, and for their parents is to be obedient and teach the commandments of God. This does not mean that some will still be Gay, but our current social environment that now encourages “experimentation”, is a recipe for disaster. Along with countless advertisements, and entertainment, to “experiment”, or to come out as children, it will harm countless generations to come. There is also a current movement building steam, for parents to not list a sex on their children’s birth certificates, and letting them chose their own, in ages as young as 5 or 6. I am reminded of the scripture, “that God will not be mocked”. As such I fear that many parents will have a “horrible reckoning coming”, as will this new culture. Even now, any male athlete can suddenly identify as Transsexual, and win against countless women who have trained their entire lives, be it local achievements, or Olympic goals in their chosen discipline.  

[mfbukowski]

duplicate

Edited February 11, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

That analogy doesn't really show anything other than how to relate to someone who either does or does not do whatever they are told to do, including how to feel.

If you're trying to show why someone should not marry or have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, try this analogy instead:  Suppose you had the ability to see each person as a sexually attractive person, regardless of what sex (male/female) each person happened to be, and you were told that it was not good to have sexual relations with anyone of the same sex as yourself even if you truly loved that person and saw them as a sexually attractive person.  And then suppose you asked the person who said that would not be good why they said it would not be good, and that person then told you why it would not be good.  And also suppose that person was an expert on what is good and what is not good.  What would you do then?

I just cannot imagine your world.  

Edited February 11, 2021 by mfbukowski
decency