Women recieving the priesthood

[Ahab]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I both agree and disagree with this.
I believe it is a requirement to learn to trust our priesthood head, even when we don't want to.  In fact I think this is a requirement for exaltation.
However, I also believe it is a requirement in life to at some point have to stand on our own testimony even if it disagrees with our head.

That might sound contradictory, but I think the precedents have been clearly set by righteous examples.

I agree, but only when we know for ourselves through revelation from God/our Father that our "priesthood head" is our "priesthood head"... someone our Father and our Lord have authorized to be in that position.

I heard a good analogy in a talk from a stake president once likening a priesthood leader to being a bus driver... the person who is currently driving any bus we are on.  With different drivers for different bus routes. All on the bus may know how to drive and may know how to get to our destination, but we should let the bus driver drive the bus he has been assigned to drive rather than all of us trying to be the driver or telling him how he should drive the bus.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You could tell us now if you want to.  Unless maybe it is one of those things about the temple experience that we are not supposed to talk about.  But most of it is something we can all freely talk about if we want to talk about it.

Ok, let me provide some quotes as to the purpose of the endowment and how it is to be used.  And then ask yourself if we are permitted to utilize the endowment that way, or if we have the tools to do so.
All of these quotes are public, and do not break the sacred covenants but I hope the mods agree.

• "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on mountains he may want to talk with his God" - Joseph Smith
   
• "No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something and this can only be in the holiest of Holies." - Joseph Smith
   
• Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions-Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born - Joseph Smith
   
• "Bathsheba W. Smith recorded that on one occasion the Prophet said to her, “You do not know how to pray and have your prayers answered.” Then she added that when she and her husband received their endowments, they learned how to pray.
   
• “instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which anyone is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days.
   
• “Let me give you the definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.” - Brigham Young
   
• "There are four penal signs and four penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after Ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things and should I want to enquire for future things I would use the third name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood or is the third token that is given and refers to the Son."  - Brigham Young
   
• “When we pray to the Lord we ought to come together clad in proper garments and when we do so, and unite our hearts and hands together, and act as one mind, the Lord will hear us and will answer our prayers. Our garments should be properly marked and we should understand those marks and we should wear those garments continually, by night and by day, in prison or free and if the devils in hell cut us up, let them cut the garments to pieces also, if we have the garments upon us at all times we can at any time offer up the signs. He then related an instance of some children being healed and cured of the whooping cough in one night, through the prayers of himself and Elder Woodruff, in Michigan, while they were there on a mission. Said that whenever they could get an opportunity they retired to the wilderness or to an upper room, they did so and offered up the signs, and were always answered. It would be a good thing for us to put on our garments every day and pray to God, and in private circles, when we can do so with safety.  - George A. Smith / Wilford Woodruff
   

This is not just about the internal spirituality of the temple.  There is actual power to unlock the veil if we are worthy.

I know this sounds like Snufferite nonsense.  But I don't want that kind of apostate route.  The Church used to lead its members to these kinds of experiences as described above.  Now we say that these things are just the presentation and aren't necessary to gain this access to heaven.  We say they have no power that can't be obtained through individual searching and righteousness.  Well I don't believe that.  This is how God told Joseph to teach the Saints to come directly into God's presence and receive direct revelation (not just inspiration) and we keep removing pieces of it, blocking individual usage, and reverting to things no deeper than your average Christian sect.

I don't know how to express this without coming off as a Snufferite or a fundamentalist.  I won't go outside Church rules, but I feel like with the removal of these things the way has been blocked by those holding the keys.  Maybe we don't deserve things this sacred.

[rongo]

56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree with others who have said that no greater blessings have been denied, but I very much sympathize with those who sincerely believe blessings are being withheld from them through no fault of their own.

I believe that people at all iterations of the endowment receive the blessings of the endowment; I'm just saddened by the loss. I compare it to knowing about the original covenant with Moses, but being under the Law of Moses given in its place when it was rejected. It's not a perfect analogy, because I don't think we have rejected anything, other than how cultural undercurrents drove the changes. 

People who were under the Law of Moses until the New Testament Church and followed it received all blessings available for them at that time. And yet, there was an original law, and a step down to a a law of carnal commandments. That's sad, no matter how it's sliced. 

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I disagree. Trusting an imperfect being is not a requirement for exaltation. God would be a monster if he required me to trust someone and put my faith in them when they are not completely trustworthy. No mortal person is completely trustworthy. We are all fallible. Requiring me to trust someone who is fallible is no basis for exaltation. I'd argue it isn't really even a basis of righteousness.

I know many who agree.  I think there is precedent for my view.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Quote

46 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I both agree and disagree with this.
I believe it is a requirement to learn to trust our priesthood head, even when we don't want to.  In fact I think this is a requirement for exaltation.
However, I also believe it is a requirement in life to at some point have to stand on our own testimony even if it disagrees with our head.

That might sound contradictory, but I think the precedents have been clearly set by righteous examples.

IMO, most of the difficult issues (like women and the priesthood) are often rooted somehow in this tension. It also seems to me that we have not really talked about this tension in any substantial way and how to navigate it. For example, I recall a recent face to face with Elder Rasband where he was asked by a Harriet in Wyoming how to deal with this tension. Rather than fully address the question, Elder Rasband merely doubled down on the "follow the prophets because that is the safest way" message. Not that I have any kind of answer to the tension, I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate it myself. It seems like it would be a valuable conversation to have.

Polygamy history is actually a perfect example of this.  The post manifesto polygamy between 1890 and 1900 featured many examples of this.  Leaders disciplining members for entering plural marriage that they believed in.  Leaders performing and advising plural marriage despite the policies.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ok, let me provide some quotes as to the purpose of the endowment and how it is to be used.  And then ask yourself if we are permitted to utilize the endowment that way, or if we have the tools to do so.
All of these quotes are public, and do not break the sacred covenants but I hope the mods agree.

• "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on mountains he may want to talk with his God" - Joseph Smith
   
• "No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something and this can only be in the holiest of Holies." - Joseph Smith
   
• Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions-Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born - Joseph Smith
   
• "Bathsheba W. Smith recorded that on one occasion the Prophet said to her, “You do not know how to pray and have your prayers answered.” Then she added that when she and her husband received their endowments, they learned how to pray.
   
• “instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which anyone is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days.
   
• “Let me give you the definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.” - Brigham Young
   
• "There are four penal signs and four penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after Ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things and should I want to enquire for future things I would use the third name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood or is the third token that is given and refers to the Son."  - Brigham Young
   
• “When we pray to the Lord we ought to come together clad in proper garments and when we do so, and unite our hearts and hands together, and act as one mind, the Lord will hear us and will answer our prayers. Our garments should be properly marked and we should understand those marks and we should wear those garments continually, by night and by day, in prison or free and if the devils in hell cut us up, let them cut the garments to pieces also, if we have the garments upon us at all times we can at any time offer up the signs. He then related an instance of some children being healed and cured of the whooping cough in one night, through the prayers of himself and Elder Woodruff, in Michigan, while they were there on a mission. Said that whenever they could get an opportunity they retired to the wilderness or to an upper room, they did so and offered up the signs, and were always answered. It would be a good thing for us to put on our garments every day and pray to God, and in private circles, when we can do so with safety.  - George A. Smith / Wilford Woodruff
   

This is not just about the internal spirituality of the temple.  There is actual power to unlock the veil if we are worthy.

I know this sounds like Snufferite nonsense.  But I don't want that kind of apostate route.  The Church used to lead its members to these kinds of experiences as described above.  Now we say that these things are just the presentation and aren't necessary to gain this access to heaven.  We say they have no power that can't be obtained through individual searching and righteousness.  Well I don't believe that.  This is how God told Joseph to teach the Saints to come directly into God's presence and receive direct revelation (not just inspiration) and we keep removing pieces of it, blocking individual usage, and reverting to things no deeper than your average Christian sect.

I don't know how to express this without coming off as a Snufferite or a fundamentalist.  I won't go outside Church rules, but I feel like with the removal of these things the way has been blocked by those holding the keys.  Maybe we don't deserve things this sacred.

Those things have not been removed and we still may receive all of those blessings, so I wonder why you think those things have been lost.  I can still experience all of those things right now.  Can't you?

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, rongo said:

I believe that people at all iterations of the endowment receive the blessings of the endowment; I'm just saddened by the loss. I compare it to knowing about the original covenant with Moses, but being under the Law of Moses given in its place when it was rejected. It's not a perfect analogy, because I don't think we have rejected anything, other than how cultural undercurrents drove the changes. 

People who were under the Law of Moses until the New Testament Church and followed it received all blessings available for them at that time. And yet, there was an original law, and a step down to a a law of carnal commandments. That's sad, no matter how it's sliced. 

You do know that other men were ordained to offices in the Melchizedek order of priesthood after Moses, don't you?  Like Joshua, his successor, and all of the men we regard as prophets who wrote scripture after Moses and Joshua.

The Aaronic order is a preparatory order toward attaining the higher order of priesthood and while all who are ordained to the lower order don't or did not move onward and upward to attain the higher order it was and still is possible to advance higher, and many did after Moses.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Those things have not been removed and we still may receive all of those blessings, so I wonder why you think those things have been lost.  I can still experience all of those things right now.  Can't you?

You're permitted to pray like that individually?
You're permitted to use the elements that were removed in 1990?
You're permitted to approach the throne of God as an individual, a united married couple or a ward in this same manner the early saints were instructed to by Joseph and Brigham?

I was pretty sure that's an excommunicable offense.

Edited January 29, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

You're permitted to pray like that individually?
You're permitted to use the elements that were removed in 1990?
You're permitted to approach the throne of God as an individual, a united married couple or a ward in this same manner the early saints were instructed to by Joseph and Brigham?

I was pretty sure that's an excommunicable offense.

Pray like what?  Please be specific.  I have all of the names I need to pray past, present and future and since they are attributed to me I pray using all of my names even when I do not utter those names.  And when I pray in a group I pray in unity with that group as well as as an individual.

What elements do you think were removed?

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Pray like what?  Please be specific.  I have all of the names I need to pray past, present and future and since they are attributed to me I pray using all of my names even when I do not utter those names.  And when I pray in a group I pray in unity with that group as well as as an individual.

What elements do you think were removed?

You know full well I'm speaking of temple prayer, the way we are taught to pray in the temple, but then never permitted to use for ourselves.

[Peacefully]

I hesitate to add my comments here. This is a subject I am painfully aware of and I am wrestling with it. So much so, that I question sometimes whether or not there is still a place in the Church for me. I do believe I am endowed with priesthood power. I was allowed to use it in the temple as has been discussed and I have used it to pray for my children, especially when we did not have a holder of the priesthood in the home. I prayed and knew God heard me just as he would hear someone who was ordained, and I have seen miracles happen because of it. Part of my patriarchal blessing also leads me to believe that down through the ages, I will be exercising priesthood power. So the only reason I see that I would need to be ordained is to hold offices such as Bishop, Stake President, General Authority, etc. And this is the rub for me. Call me progressive or a feminist, or whatever, but I’ve had a career that has been very important to me for 30 years. It has really defined me, almost more than being a mother. The CEO of our multi-billion dollar construction supply company is a woman. My VP is a woman, and I am a Product Manager who manages both male and female developers. We now have a woman Vice President of the country (too long in coming, imho). It seems that the Church’s stance on women not holding the higher offices is a bit outdated. Maybe splitting men and women into EQ and RS isn’t even what we need any more. Maybe it is time we all work together to help this broken world. I bet even if we had combined EQ/RS, when sign-up sheets are passed around, people will gravitate to what they do best, be it moving, packing, organizing, cooking, decorating, or whatever. I also think, since we are living longer, there are so many empty-nester women my age who have a lot to offer, but we don’t fit into the RS mode. I think I would fit better into some of the traditionally male roles than I do in the female roles in the church. Also, I work and travel with men all the time. I’ve done so for many years, and I wasn’t bad looking when I was younger, lol. But I never had an affair with any of them. My husband trusts me and I trust him. I think we should all be grownups about this. Btw, I have expressed my opinions to my Bishop and he gave me the line about motherhood being the opposite of the priesthood. I said, no fatherhood the opposite of motherhood. He is a great guy and does a great job, but I could tell he didn’t really understand what I was saying. Anyway, I won’t be out holding up protest signs to try and get my way. I don’t believe that is how things should be done in our Church, but please don’t think all women are alike, or want the same thing. Maybe we are a minority, but some of us are more than ready for a change. 

[Ahab]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

You know full well I'm speaking of temple prayer, the way we are taught to pray in the temple, but then never permitted to use for ourselves.

I think we may just have a different perspective on this.  Once we have received our endowments in the temple we then have the names, tokens and signs we need to pray with full access to and with full confidence in God whether we show/reveal or utter the words associated with those names, tokens and signs.  I think you may be thinking that you must utter one of your names or show/reveal those tokens or signs before you consider yourself or someone else to be praying with them, as if you are in a prayer circle in a temple. Think about yourself still sitting in one of those seats, though, as you pray with those who are in a circle.  You're not sitting there showing/revealing a token or sign as you sit there, are you?

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I understand why you'd say he trusted, but it may be that he tested. He heard wisdom and thought he'd give it a try. God knew him and he discovered he could uncover God's will for himself without anyone else telling him. After all, as an imperfect being he was just as capable of understanding God's will for him than some other imperfect being telling him what God's will is.

Oh yeah, the old "doubt is a virtue" argument. He wasn't testing James. though, and he clearly trusted what he read the Bible. He wasn't testing the Bible, either, whether it was correct or not. What made him faithful or spiritually sensitive was not reliant upon trusting James or the Bible, but the other way around. And no, we are not all as imperfectly capable as another in understanding God's will for us since that is a function of agency which we apply very differently. We do each have an equal opportunity to choose to live according to light we possess given our placement in this world (Acts 17:26-28), as Joseph demonstrated.

[teddyaware]

5 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I hesitate to add my comments here. This is a subject I am painfully aware of and I am wrestling with it. So much so, that I question sometimes whether or not there is still a place in the Church for me. I do believe I am endowed with priesthood power. I was allowed to use it in the temple as has been discussed and I have used it to pray for my children, especially when we did not have a holder of the priesthood in the home. I prayed and knew God heard me just as he would hear someone who was ordained, and I have seen miracles happen because of it. Part of my patriarchal blessing also leads me to believe that down through the ages, I will be exercising priesthood power. So the only reason I see that I would need to be ordained is to hold offices such as Bishop, Stake President, General Authority, etc. And this is the rub for me. Call me progressive or a feminist, or whatever, but I’ve had a career that has been very important to me for 30 years. It has really defined me, almost more than being a mother. The CEO of our multi-billion dollar construction supply company is a woman. My VP is a woman, and I am a Product Manager who manages both male and female developers. We now have a woman Vice President of the country (too long in coming, imho). It seems that the Church’s stance on women not holding the higher offices is a bit outdated. Maybe splitting men and women into EQ and RS isn’t even what we need any more. Maybe it is time we all work together to help this broken world. I bet even if we had combined EQ/RS, when sign-up sheets are passed around, people will gravitate to what they do best, be it moving, packing, organizing, cooking, decorating, or whatever. I also think, since we are living longer, there are so many empty-nester women my age who have a lot to offer, but we don’t fit into the RS mode. I think I would fit better into some of the traditionally male roles than I do in the female roles in the church. Also, I work and travel with men all the time. I’ve done so for many years, and I wasn’t bad looking when I was younger, lol. But I never had an affair with any of them. My husband trusts me and I trust him. I think we should all be grownups about this. Btw, I have expressed my opinions to my Bishop and he gave me the line about motherhood being the opposite of the priesthood. I said, no fatherhood the opposite of motherhood. He is a great guy and does a great job, but I could tell he didn’t really understand what I was saying. Anyway, I won’t be out holding up protest signs to try and get my way. I don’t believe that is how things should be done in our Church, but please don’t think all women are alike, or want the same thing. Maybe we are a minority, but some of us are more than ready for a change. 

And if the change you desire doesn’t come?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think we may just have a different perspective on this.  Once we have received our endowments in the temple we then have the names, tokens and signs we need to pray with full access to and with full confidence in God whether we show/reveal or utter the words associated with those names, tokens and signs.  I think you may be thinking that you must utter one of your names or show/reveal those tokens or signs before you consider yourself or someone else to be praying with them, as if you are in a prayer circle in a temple. Think about yourself still sitting in one of those seats, though, as you pray with those who are in a circle.  You're not sitting there showing/revealing a token or sign as you sit there, are you?

Wouldn't it be nice if that worked in every ordinance?
Could be baptized without getting wet.  Take the sacrament without eating anything.  Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands.
I suppose Joseph did once heal the sick without laying on hands.  Sent a red handkerchief instead....

[Ahab]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Wouldn't it be nice if that worked in every ordinance?
Could be baptized without getting wet.  Take the sacrament without eating anything.  Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands.
I suppose Joseph did once heal the sick without laying on hands.  Sent a red handkerchief instead....

You have been baptized, and yet you are not wet or getting baptized now, are you.  And yet you are still considered to be someone who has been baptized.

It is nice that it works that way, I think.

[JustAnAustralian]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You know full well I'm speaking of temple prayer, the way we are taught to pray in the temple, but then never permitted to use for ourselves.

It's kinda hard to have a temple-style prayer circle with only one person in it.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, JustAnAustralian said:

It's kinda hard to have a temple-style prayer circle with only one person in it.

Ever used the drop box to ask those in a temple to pray for what you are praying for?  You don't have to be the only one praying for whatever you are praying for.

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I hesitate to add my comments here. This is a subject I am painfully aware of and I am wrestling with it. So much so, that I question sometimes whether or not there is still a place in the Church for me. I do believe I am endowed with priesthood power. I was allowed to use it in the temple as has been discussed and I have used it to pray for my children, especially when we did not have a holder of the priesthood in the home. I prayed and knew God heard me just as he would hear someone who was ordained, and I have seen miracles happen because of it. Part of my patriarchal blessing also leads me to believe that down through the ages, I will be exercising priesthood power. So the only reason I see that I would need to be ordained is to hold offices such as Bishop, Stake President, General Authority, etc. And this is the rub for me. Call me progressive or a feminist, or whatever, but I’ve had a career that has been very important to me for 30 years. It has really defined me, almost more than being a mother. The CEO of our multi-billion dollar construction supply company is a woman. My VP is a woman, and I am a Product Manager who manages both male and female developers. We now have a woman Vice President of the country (too long in coming, imho). It seems that the Church’s stance on women not holding the higher offices is a bit outdated. Maybe splitting men and women into EQ and RS isn’t even what we need any more. Maybe it is time we all work together to help this broken world. I bet even if we had combined EQ/RS, when sign-up sheets are passed around, people will gravitate to what they do best, be it moving, packing, organizing, cooking, decorating, or whatever. I also think, since we are living longer, there are so many empty-nester women my age who have a lot to offer, but we don’t fit into the RS mode. I think I would fit better into some of the traditionally male roles than I do in the female roles in the church. Also, I work and travel with men all the time. I’ve done so for many years, and I wasn’t bad looking when I was younger, lol. But I never had an affair with any of them. My husband trusts me and I trust him. I think we should all be grownups about this. Btw, I have expressed my opinions to my Bishop and he gave me the line about motherhood being the opposite of the priesthood. I said, no fatherhood the opposite of motherhood. He is a great guy and does a great job, but I could tell he didn’t really understand what I was saying. Anyway, I won’t be out holding up protest signs to try and get my way. I don’t believe that is how things should be done in our Church, but please don’t think all women are alike, or want the same thing. Maybe we are a minority, but some of us are more than ready for a change. 

To me, this speaks to how we each view the world differently (due to societal norms, innate intelligence, grace), and the more we share our perspectives in good faith and prayer, especially in the Church’s councils, the closer we arrive at the Lord’s will, whatever that may be. I think this process also helps us manage our varying personal tendencies concerning enabling or resisting change (of any kind).

[JustAnAustralian]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Ever used the drop box to ask those in a temple to pray for what you are praying for?  You don't have to be the only one praying for whatever you are praying for.

Of course you can ask other people to pray for the people you are praying for. However I don't think that's what JLHPROF is talking about.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

It's kinda hard to have a temple-style prayer circle with only one person in it.

True.  But as the quotes demonstrate the signs and tokens can be offered up and the prayer made.
The circle provides additional elements of unity and increased faith to the piercing of the veil.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Of course you can ask other people to pray for the people you are praying for. However I don't think that's what JLHPROF is talking about.

Correct.  There are times we need revelation.  We can ask in prayer.  But as Joseph said, what if we really needed to go on a mountain and converse with God?
Sure we can use regular prayer but that's not what God instructed when he restored this order of prayer.  Obedience to God's revelation brings blessings of more revelation.

Edited January 29, 2021 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

And if the change you desire doesn’t come?

I think there is a difference between desire and readiness. If you are ready for something and it doesn't come, you just keep waiting, hopefully finding joy in what has already come.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Of course you can ask other people to pray for the people you are praying for. However I don't think that's what JLHPROF is talking about.

i think he was talking about using signs and tokens to pray and I was saying you and others could use signs and tokens to pray even if you or they do not have any signs or tokens because other people who have signs and tokens can pray for you or others.

[HappyJackWagon]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Oh yeah, the old "doubt is a virtue" argument. He wasn't testing James. though, and he clearly trusted what he read the Bible. He wasn't testing the Bible, either, whether it was correct or not. What made him faithful or spiritually sensitive was not reliant upon trusting James or the Bible, but the other way around. And no, we are not all as imperfectly capable as another in understanding God's will for us since that is a function of agency which we apply very differently. We do each have an equal opportunity to choose to live according to light we possess given our placement in this world (Acts 17:26-28), as Joseph demonstrated.

It sounds like you think testing is denigrating. I do think he was testing but that was at least in part because he had some level of trust, or at least hope, that what he read was true. Think Alma 32- is testing and looking at the result a bad thing?