Is the spirit of god an entity?

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Holy Ghost can come to anyone. I don’t presume to tell God who He can and cannot speak to. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is different and more expansive. Generally the Holy Ghost testifies but will not tarry forever unless the person humbles themselves and receives the ordinances and the Gift.

Years ago I also believed God could speak to anyone he wanted but today I'm not to sure. Yes, since he's  the Govenor of this world, he can communicate with anyone we wants here, but he still has to work inside of the rules of the holy priesthood and the priesthood puts certain limitations on our God. The priesthood governs everything, even Gods. As they progress, they to gain further knowledge as the veil is lifted even further allowing them to communicate with other Gods who are further along in eternal progression. I personally think our God is a fairly new God because of the limitations that have been put upon him. Would you like to speak more on this because I'm not sure if I can. Will minos the moderator kick me off the board, I'm not sure how much my opinion is wanted here.

[mfbukowski]

The Light of Christ?

Easiest explanation:  "The Force" in Star Wars.

If you like sci-fi, it's like a force field of God's intelligence whereby he can know what's happening everywhere and talk back.

It's in everyone and IS our "conscience".   Even atheists - every human (without brain defects etc) has a sense of right and wrong as almost an "instinct".

I love this video about the atheist Christopher Hitchins speaking about the conscience.   He essentially is forced to re-invent the concept of "The Light of Christ" as a kind of spirit or "daemon"  (not demon- a daemon is a kind of mini-god - invented I think by the Ancient pagan Greeks- as opposed to God himself)

Notice that Hitchins, atheist says that we sometimes have to have a discussion with that "Inner Witness"

Imagine if we presented God to the world as that inner witness and God as the idea of a Perfect Human inside of all of us

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

15 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

15 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Provide actual quotes, please, not just page numbers and your interpretation of what you think was said. 

Raingirl I apologize and promise in the next couple of days I will figure out how to provide actual quotes in my post. For right im going to give pages for reference, sorry.

May I ask how is it that you are providing page numbers and paraphrases but not actual quotes?  What are you drawing your information from?

[JLHPROF]

I'm a little surprised how everyone is pouncing on Mike for this topic.

The differences between the personage of the Holy Ghost, the spiritual gift of the Holy Ghost (confirmation), and the Spirit of God/Christ have always engendered discussion and mixed understandings.

They are three separate but connected terms.  Understanding how they work together and recognizing that people use them interchangeably is a good discussion topic.

[InCognitus]

On 12/11/2020 at 6:42 PM, Mike Livingston said:

I disagree. If you read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Legrand Richard's says that Jesus made it pretty clear, that the world cannot receive the Holy Ghost when he is describing him, only the righteous, page126. Richard's goes on to state that God has provided a light for those who aren't entitled to receive the gift of the holy ghost, that would be what I'm guessing is the spirit of god p.126-127. Again on page 130 Richard's writes that the holy ghost isn't given to all men, not until they repent of their sins and come unto a state of worthiness. There's many more references throughout that state the same thing. I could be wrong,  read it, tell me what you think.

I believe you are misreading or misremembering LeGrand Richards, or relying on sources that give you an incomplete picture of what Elder Richards was saying since you can't seem to quote the book directly.  This is why I asked in the previous post where you are getting your information.

On page 122 of A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Elder Richards has a subheading:  The Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ, and that which follows (and precedes) that section would address the question you asked in your opening post.  And this statement that you make above, "Legrand Richard's says that Jesus made it pretty clear, that the world cannot receive the Holy Ghost when he is describing him, only the righteous" misstates what Elder Richards is saying.  Elder Richards makes the same distinction that many of the posts on this thread have already been making, on pages 108-127 of his book:

1. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands to those who are baptized, and this is what Jesus said "the world cannot receive" (John 14:16-17).  Elder Richards expounds on the purpose of the Gift of the Holy Ghost starting on page 108 to page 116, where he makes it clear, "That the gift of the Holy Ghost comes not to the world, but only to those upon whom this gift has been conferred by the laying on of hands by those ordained to this authority." (p.116)
2. The Holy Ghost (not to be confused with the Gift of the Holy Ghost) has "limited operations" to those outside the faith, and he suggests that such operations "seem to be confined to those who seek after righteousness, and in which the Lord has some special message to convey.  In such cases, however, the Holy Ghost does not come as a gift to remain with the individual, as in the case when one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands."  (p.122)  In reference to non-members who read the Book of Mormon and the promise made in Moroni 10:4, Elder Richards says, "Thus the Holy Ghost enlightens their minds and enables them to know the truth when they have faith in Christ and seek sincerely in order that they may accept and obey the truth. However, there is no promise that the Holy Ghost will remain as a comforter and companion with even such as they, except upon their acceptance of the truth and their obedience to its requirements." (p. 119)
3. The Lord has also made provision for inspiring and directing those who are not entitled to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost through the "light of Christ", also known as the "Spirit of God" or "Spirit of Christ".  This, he explains, manifests in us as our conscience, which he says, "even where the law is not given and understood, through this light 'which lighteth every man that cometh into the world' all men have 'the law written in their hearts,' and their consciences bear witness of right and wrong." (see p.123-125)

He then quotes three paragraphs of a sermon from President Joseph F. Smith describing the differences between the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ, and the difference between them, and the operation or mission of the Holy Ghost.  I'll only quote this portion of the last paragraph on page 126, since it is the most relevant to your statement above:

Quote

The question is often asked, Is there any difference between the Spirit of the Lord and the Holy Ghost? The terms are frequently used synonymously. We often say the Spirit of God when we mean the Holy Ghost; we likewise say the Holy Ghost when we mean the Spirit of God. The Holy Ghost is a personage in the Godhead, and is not that which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. It is the Spirit of God which proceeds through Christ to the world, that enlightens every man that comes into the world, and that strives with the children of men, and will continue to Strive with them, until it brings them to a knowledge of the truth and the possession of the greater light and testimony of the Holy Ghost.

So Elder Richards makes it clear that it's the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost that the "world cannot receive", and that the Holy Ghost can come upon "those who seek after righteousness" to bear witness of truth, and the "light of Christ" is in all men.  

You also make a reference to page 130, where you say, "Richard's writes that the holy ghost isn't given to all men, not until they repent of their sins and come unto a state of worthiness".  There is absolutely no reference to the Holy Ghost on page 130 (that's in the chapter on Setting Up the Kingdom of God Upon the Earth).  But based on what you said there, I believe you are confusing the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost with the operations of the Holy Ghost, as shown above.

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm a little surprised how everyone is pouncing on Mike for this topic.

I think the pouncing has more to do with the vague or misremembered sources and unusual interpretations more than the topic (at least for me).  The topic is a good one.

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The differences between the personage of the Holy Ghost, the spiritual gift of the Holy Ghost (confirmation), and the Spirit of God/Christ have always engendered discussion and mixed understandings.

They are three separate but connected terms.  Understanding how they work together and recognizing that people use them interchangeably is a good discussion topic.

I agree.  I think the quote from the sermon from President Joseph F. Smith at the end of my last post makes it clear that these terms are often confused or used synonymously (even more so in the full context of the quote in Elder Richards' book).  It's good to clarify the meaning.

[Stargazer]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:32 PM, The Nehor said:

Never heard this about the Holy Ghost and I don’t see why it needs to serve as a go-between to other beings. The Holy Ghost is a God. Why would he pass on messages from anyone but himself or the Father and Son and maybe serve as a conduit for the communication of angels. Maybe those angels are what they meant?  I also have not heard of the Spirit of God being a separate being. What you describe as the Spirit of God is often called the Light of Christ generally. A divine spark in the human spirit designed to lead you to good. I disagree that it can never go away completely or that it is constant no matter what. I would say if you do make it go away entirely you are probably heading for Perdition.

With respect to the Light of Christ, I found this article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism to be of interest:

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Light_of_Christ

it starts with "The Light of Christ refers to the spiritual power that emanates from God to fill the immensity of space and enlightens every man, woman, and child."

When you write "I disagree that it can never go away completely or that it is constant no matter what" I feel I must disagree with you. It's constant all right, but nobody forces you to listen.

A scientific analog to the Light of Christ might be the Cosmic Background Radiation, or CBR. It is always there, but whether you detect it or not depends upon whether you have a suitable detector. In the old-style analog TV receivers, when you tuned to a channel that didn't currently have a broadcast, a small part of the noise pattern seen on the CRT screen was due to the CBR:

 

[Stargazer]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:46 PM, Mike Livingston said:

I'm going to assume you believe in communicating with beings from other planets. You try to do it everytime you pray, all of us do, what's wrong with me saying that, have you never sung If You Could Hie To Kolob?? What's Kolob bluebell, it's a planet with superior intelligence that reside on it. God provides us with the gift of the holy ghost so we can communicate with him , the less sinless we commit the more we can understand the answer we hopefully receive back from these superior intelligence's. Am I wrong in anything I just said?? 

When we talk about the spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit, we frequently concatenate different ideas as if they were one thing, when they aren't.

What enables us to communicate with God is the Light of Christ, which is available to everyone (whether listened to or not). The "Gift of the Holy Ghost", on the other hand, is a enhancement to the Light of Christ that must be conferred upon us by authority, and whether it functions in us depends upon our personal behavior. I may not be completely accurate calling the GHG an "enhancement" to the LoC, but it may suffice to distinguish them.

[Stargazer]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:59 PM, Mike Livingston said:

Thank you for that nice simple answer and not accusing me of being a troll. Why is everyone so sensitive in here, dam!

Because we get trolls from time to time who ruffle our feathers and then disappear taking their divisiveness with them. The old-timers (e.g. bluebell, Calm, and me) have finely-tuned detectors for this -- but sometimes we get false positives!

You don't seem like a troll to me, though. You seem to be a member of the church who just has some non-standard ways of talking.

[Stargazer]

On 12/12/2020 at 12:05 AM, Calm said:

The gift of the Holy Ghost. There may be other ways he interacts with those non baptized. At the very least he needs to be connecting if they get a witness of the truth of the gospel prior to baptism. 

I believe I've heard some authority or other saying that the operation of the Holy Ghost is to be distinguished from the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and thus a person who has not received the GHG can nevertheless receive some inspiration or revelation through the operation of the HG.

But I have come over to the idea that the Light of Christ is what most people who do not have the GHG receive inspiration from.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm a little surprised how everyone is pouncing on Mike for this topic.

Yeah, me too.

And I'm a bit annoyed that the mods have put him on Limited. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Stargazer

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Because we get trolls from time to time who ruffle our feathers and then disappear taking their divisiveness with them. The old-timers (e.g. bluebell, Calm, and me) have finely-tuned detectors for this -- but sometimes we get false positives!

You don't seem like a troll to me, though. You seem to be a member of the church who just has some non-standard ways of talking.

Yes, I'll agree with you there, I'm definitely non-standard, but that's why my wife married me, so I see that as a good trait because she hot and extremely humble😁. Personally I think it's fun coming in here with my funny structured sentences, small words, emojis, I'm sure it throws a few people off but I feel like I'm pretty sound on mormon doctrine and I'm going to prove it. 

[AtlanticMike]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm a little surprised how everyone is pouncing on Mike for this topic.

The differences between the personage of the Holy Ghost, the spiritual gift of the Holy Ghost (confirmation), and the Spirit of God/Christ have always engendered discussion and mixed understandings.

They are three separate but connected terms.  Understanding how they work together and recognizing that people use them interchangeably is a good discussion topic.

Thank you

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Yes, I'll agree with you there, I'm definitely non-standard, but that's why my wife married me, so I see that as a good trait because she hot and extremely humble😁. Personally I think it's fun coming in here with my funny structured sentences, small words, emojis, I'm sure it throws a few people off but I feel like I'm pretty sound on mormon doctrine and I'm going to prove it. 

My name is Mike, too.

You've said that you're doing all this on a phone, so that explains rather well at least part of the style of writing. I find working on my phone or tablet extremely limiting, because I am a fast typist on the computer (my usual typing speed is about 60 wpm), unless I'm composing a sentence that needs work. And even when on a phone, I feel I must write in complete grammatical sentences with proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation. Besides being a retired computer programmer, I'm also a writer/publisher. 

But I know about you roofer guys! I have a rather large blended family, and one of my stepsons operates a roofing business in Georgia.  Four of the other ones have also worked as roofers at one time or another -- my oldest stepson once fell off a roof and got some large percentage disabled as a result. So be careful up there!

 

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, me too.

And I'm a bit annoyed that the mods have put him on Limited. 

Thank you. I didn't even know I was on limited. But that's ok. I'm going to make a pretty broad assumption that maybe I'm ruffling a few feathers because I came on here and pretty much put myself and my feelings right in your face and that was probably not the best way to come across, so I apologize. This is truly my first forum I've ever joined so I'm typing just like I talk. Secondly,  maybe by putting myself out there and admitting I'm a roofer with a G.E.D., it's hard for some people to accept I would come on here and attempt to try to prove or persuade someone that the way I interpret the gospel (because that's all we are doing is interpreting) is sound . I could be wrong though, but that's what I'm feeling. And to the intellectuals that might feel this way, keep in mind that jesus was a carpenter, he was simple, sound in his judgement and doctrine, and the pharisees hated for it.

[AtlanticMike]

8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

My name is Mike, too.

You've said that you're doing all this on a phone, so that explains rather well at least part of the style of writing. I find working on my phone or tablet extremely limiting, because I am a fast typist on the computer (my usual typing speed is about 60 wpm), unless I'm composing a sentence that needs work. And even when on a phone, I feel I must write in complete grammatical sentences with proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation. Besides being a retired computer programmer, I'm also a writer/publisher. 

But I know about you roofer guys! I have a rather large blended family, and one of my stepsons operates a roofing business in Georgia.  Four of the other ones have also worked as roofers at one time or another -- my oldest stepson once fell off a roof and got some large percentage disabled as a result. So be careful up there!

 

Thank you. I stay away from desk tops, my wife does all the billing so your never going to see a post from me that's not from a phone. Roofers are ruff and tumble for the most part but also really good guys. You got to be a little crazy to do what we do. Thank you for the support. 

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Thank you. I didn't even know I was on limited. But that's ok. I'm going to make a pretty broad assumption that maybe I'm ruffling a few feathers because I came on here and pretty much put myself and my feelings right in your face and that was probably not the best way to come across, so I apologize. This is truly my first forum I've ever joined so I'm typing just like I talk. Secondly,  maybe by putting myself out there and admitting I'm a roofer with a G.E.D., it's hard for some people to accept I would come on here and attempt to try to prove or persuade someone that the way I interpret the gospel (because that's all we are doing is interpreting) is sound . I could be wrong though, but that's what I'm feeling. And to the intellectuals that might feel this way, keep in mind that jesus was a carpenter, he was simple, sound in his judgement and doctrine, and the pharisees hated for it.

Well, I have a GED instead of a HS diploma, too. My late wife and I homeschooled a few of our children and so they have GEDs as well. There's no stigma associated with that, except for some people with sticks up their wazoos.

I think Nemesis got worried about you, the way you came on like gangbusters. Perhaps you didn't read the Board Guidelines to see what was verboten. But the BGs seem to have vanished. I can't find them.

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I have a GED instead of a HS diploma, too. My late wife and I homeschooled a few of our children and so they have GEDs as well. There's no stigma associated with that, except for some people with sticks up their wazoos.

I think Nemesis got worried about you, the way you came on like gangbusters. Perhaps you didn't read the Board Guidelines to see what was verboten. But the BGs seem to have vanished. I can't find them.

Calm reached out to me and gave me some good advice so I'm going to slow down, I didn't think about everytime I post a new topic I'm pushing someone else's down the line, didn't occur to me. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

the BGs seem to have vanished. I can't find them.

 

[echelon]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:08 PM, Mike Livingston said:

How do you guys see the spirit of god? Is it an entity, is it the holy ghost or is it the pure essence of god burning like a fire?

The burning like a fire, I think is more like team spirit, feeling really passionate about something. 

The spirit of God (lower case 's') I think is a mechanism that connects everything together and is constant.

The Spirit of God in the context of having to ask for it in the Sacrament Prayer and risk losing it ("For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man." 2 Nephi 26:11 ), is not constant and leads me to believe it is referring to the Holy Ghost.

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This reminds me of Tacenda's post over in the Social Hall:

The picture quality is fuzzy in both television sets.  Maybe even warm fuzzies, which may be the connection to the topic of this thread.  

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, me too.

And I'm a bit annoyed that the mods have put him on Limited. 

Agreed.

[Amulek]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:46 PM, Mike Livingston said:

[H]ave you never sung If You Could Hie To Kolob??

Unfortunately, yes. It is absolutely one of my least favorite hymns - both musically and lyrically. After a few verses in I start mentally changing the refrain at the end to, "There is no end to this song..." repeaded over and over again.  

 

Quote

What's Kolob bluebell, it's a planet with superior intelligence that reside on it. [...] Am I wrong in anything I just said?? 

Yeah. Kolob isn't a planet - it's a star.

Something that you ought to know either from (a) familiarity with the Book of Abraham or (b) a 5 second Google search. 

 

[The Nehor]

On 12/12/2020 at 7:04 AM, Mike Livingston said:

Years ago I also believed God could speak to anyone he wanted but today I'm not to sure. Yes, since he's  the Govenor of this world, he can communicate with anyone we wants here, but he still has to work inside of the rules of the holy priesthood and the priesthood puts certain limitations on our God. The priesthood governs everything, even Gods. As they progress, they to gain further knowledge as the veil is lifted even further allowing them to communicate with other Gods who are further along in eternal progression. I personally think our God is a fairly new God because of the limitations that have been put upon him. Would you like to speak more on this because I'm not sure if I can. Will minos the moderator kick me off the board, I'm not sure how much my opinion is wanted here.

If there are variations in what Gods can do I don’t think we would be able to tell the difference.

[AtlanticMike]

30 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Unfortunately, yes. It is absolutely one of my least favorite hymns - both musically and lyrically. After a few verses in I start mentally changing the refrain at the end to, "There is no end to this song..." repeaded over and over again.  

 

Yeah. Kolob isn't a planet - it's a star.

Something that you ought to know either from (a) familiarity with the Book of Abraham or (b) a 5 second Google search. 

 

I've already said I was wrong when I said Kolob was a planet, I think I've admitted thattwice so far, jeez! I've already told bluebell I was sorry and I was probably a little harsh in the way I worded that when I responded back to her. So here's your award amulek🏅