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AtlanticMike

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Hello, just joined your forum and actually it's the first forum I've ever joined. I'm looking for answers. So let me tell you what happened. My brother in law has been out of the church for about 15 years and every once in a while he sends me a link or some information that's not faith promoting. As a family we have decided not to click on anything he sends us because it always negative. Last week he sends me a text with a link to a video and he tells me that a church group has put Brigham Youngs head on a rapper and surrounded Brigham with women who have their boobs hanging out. First I felt bad for my sister because I thought he was totally going crazy for once. But for some reason I clicked on it thinking there's no way it's true because it's to crazy to believe. Well after watching that video plus a bunch more I've pretty much gone down a rabbit hole I guess. I've probably spent 30 or so hours in the past four days researching and I'm totally pissed at what I'm finding. First off, why are these videos attacking individual people by name? I've been a member my whole life and I have never heard a church leader or source attack an individual, only satan. For the first time in my life I have let doubt creep in and now I'm online complaining to people I have never met. Sorry for the rant but could somebody please tell me what's going on with the church attacking people through fairmorm? Are these guys professors? 

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I am a member of FairMormon. If you wait for just a bit, I believe we will be issuing an announcement explaining everything sometime today. They have been working on it over the weekend when they have had time.  We are all volunteers and don’t get paid anything, so it needs to be balanced with paid work and family life. :)  

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If you are basing any of your testimony on the behaviour of people you hardly know and an occurrence that probably doesn’t even amount to a 1/100,000 of our lives, it be wise to rethink that.  You will not be able to fairly judge anyone’s character based on that amount of info, for one thing.  And even if all of FairMormon suddenly went bonkers for some reason, that demonstrates nothing about the truth of the gospel.  It might demonstrate the type of people who are interested in apologetics.

 And don’t forget that even apostles have gone apostate in the past, but that does not mean that Christ is any less Lord or our Saviour  nor that the Church is his chosen vehicle to share the Gospel fully at the time on earth. 

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I literally just finished writing an email to a fairmorm representative just a few minutes ago so if this is the same person I apologize. But let me tell my story. After watching your videos I was so upset I called church headquarters for the first time in my life. I talked to Tom in the p.r. department and when I told him about the videos he didn't believe me. He said he knew a lot of the guys at fairmorm and they would never put out a video that had Brigham youngs head cropped unto a rapper's body surrounded by women with their boobs hanging out. A few days later he called me back and apologized for not believing me and said he watched some of the videos and couldn't believe fairmormon had stooped so low. He also said he has emailed you and complained about the videos and that I should to. The content of your videos has put me in a tail spin, so much so I took off work today to do more research. You should defend the church but in a christ like manner!! Calling out people by name and putting their photo on your videos has totally pissed me off. Last year my wife and I watched a documentary on Netflix about scientology and as soon as I saw some of your videos I was reminded of the tactics of scientology. Scientologist go after people by name! I dont know what church you belong to but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't use evil tactics like calling people out by name and associating them with satan just because they no longer believe. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way but you've lit a fire under me with your videos. I'm going to contact whoever I have to to get those videos taken down so my kids dont see them and think the church approves of members attacking people.

 

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I just read your second post. I've been a member my whole life so who are you to tell me to think about what I should base my testimony on? Maybe you should reconsider the message your trying to convey by attacking people. The youth of the church aren't as dumb as your making them out to be. They will not like these videos because they're not christ like in anyway. You guys have jumped the shark at fairmormon. 

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39 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

literally just finished writing an email to a fairmorm representative just a few minutes ago so if this is the same person I apologize.

I am not answering those, though helping in the background.  
 

Please wait until you hear the whole story before you make your judgments. 
 

I am sorry you took my post that way. I have just read too many letters that have expressed regret for letting what they later learned to be wrong or turned out to be minor cause them to start questioning and it took much more work to regain the faith they had lost.  I am just saying nothing FM does should be viewed in that way by others. We should never be the basis of someone’s testimony. (Not saying we are yours, speaking in general)  We don’t want to play that role. 

Edited by Calm
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Thank you for your last response. But I'm here to tell you that your playing with fire if you think members are going to let you attack individuals by name abs post their pictures in videos to try to humiliate them. I personally dont care if these people your attacking left the church and became satanists and sacrifice babies,  you dont attack them. There's nothing you can say in your upcoming response your asking me to wait for that will change my mind. Our church is the 4th largest church in America,  the only church that basically has it's own state, people still look at mormons as good honest decent people. People actually hire me because I'm mormon and they know they can trust me! This crap your producing lately will only erode the trust people have for mormons like me. Its petty and extremely childish.If you start attacking individuals because they dont agree with you then your going to hurt that wholesome image we work for everyday. 

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22 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Thank you for your last response. But I'm here to tell you that your playing with fire if you think members are going to let you attack individuals by name abs post their pictures in videos to try to humiliate them. I personally dont care if these people your attacking left the church and became satanists and sacrifice babies,  you dont attack them. There's nothing you can say in your upcoming response your asking me to wait for that will change my mind. Our church is the 4th largest church in America,  the only church that basically has it's own state, people still look at mormons as good honest decent people. People actually hire me because I'm mormon and they know they can trust me! This crap your producing lately will only erode the trust people have for mormons like me. Its petty and extremely childish.If you start attacking individuals because they dont agree with you then your going to hurt that wholesome image we work for everyday. 

Are you even reading what Calm has posted? You seem to have come here with a specific agenda and don’t appear to be willing to listen to facts. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Livingston said:

I just read your second post. I've been a member my whole life so who are you to tell me to think about what I should base my testimony on? Maybe you should reconsider the message your trying to convey by attacking people. The youth of the church aren't as dumb as your making them out to be. They will not like these videos because they're not christ like in anyway. You guys have jumped the shark at fairmormon. 

I don't think she's trying to tell you what to base your testimony on, only providing some good advice.  Anger clouds judgement, and makes it harder to feeling the enticings of the spirit.  That's true for all of us, none are immune to that.  Calm isn't saying you shouldn't be angry about the videos, only that you shouldn't let that anger cause you to doubt a testimony that sounds like it is based on decades of experiences with the gospel and the spirit.

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Yes I came here for a certain reason and I asked 2 questions in my very first post, are these guys professors and is the church using them to attack individuals? Still no answer to those questions.  I have never heard the church attack individuals and I surely hope this doesn't turn out to be the case. A church of god no matter if it's the mormon church or another Christian church should ever attack individuals because that individual doesn't agree with them. Our church isn't just the church of our lord and savior but it's also a multi billion dollar corporation and corporations that attack individuals look petty. And I'm honestly confused, what facts am I not listening to? 

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4 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Yes I came here for a certain reason and I asked 2 questions in my very first post, are these guys professors and is the church using them to attack individuals? Still no answer to those questions.  I have never heard the church attack individuals and I surely hope this doesn't turn out to be the case. A church of god no matter if it's the mormon church or another Christian church should ever attack individuals because that individual doesn't agree with them. Our church isn't just the church of our lord and savior but it's also a multi billion dollar corporation and corporations that attack individuals look petty. And I'm honestly confused, what facts am I not listening to? 

If you are talking about the people in the videos, no, they are not professors.  They are college kids.  They don't work for Fair and neither are they members of Fair.  And Fair isn't affiliated with the church.  Fair members are members of the church but the church does not run Fair or provide any oversight.

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1 hour ago, Mike Livingston said:

I literally just finished writing an email to a fairmorm representative just a few minutes ago so if this is the same person I apologize. But let me tell my story. After watching your videos I was so upset I called church headquarters for the first time in my life. I talked to Tom in the p.r. department and when I told him about the videos he didn't believe me. He said he knew a lot of the guys at fairmorm and they would never put out a video that had Brigham youngs head cropped unto a rapper's body surrounded by women with their boobs hanging out. A few days later he called me back and apologized for not believing me and said he watched some of the videos and couldn't believe fairmormon had stooped so low. He also said he has emailed you and complained about the videos and that I should to. The content of your videos has put me in a tail spin, so much so I took off work today to do more research. You should defend the church but in a christ like manner!! Calling out people by name and putting their photo on your videos has totally pissed me off. Last year my wife and I watched a documentary on Netflix about scientology and as soon as I saw some of your videos I was reminded of the tactics of scientology. Scientologist go after people by name! I dont know what church you belong to but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't use evil tactics like calling people out by name and associating them with satan just because they no longer believe. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way but you've lit a fire under me with your videos. I'm going to contact whoever I have to to get those videos taken down so my kids dont see them and think the church approves of members attacking people.

 

To my bold, I hadn't thought of that. Yes, that is a red flag. I hope that things will change and FairMormon fixes that problem in particular. The church leaders would not approve, I believe. I think that the apologists are fed up with the John Dehlins, and so many others out there that put down their faith and church. So you can understand where they are coming from.

The church has almost everything listed in their Gospel Topic Essays that have some of the same things in the CES letter or other critics writing/podcasts. The church put these essays out to counteract the anti information and to inoculate the youth from having to go through a faith crisis, and I'm glad for that. Because in my believing life, over 40 years, I hadn't thought twice about BY's polygamy, because I'd know about it since a child. But unbeknownst to me, wasn't aware of JS's living polygamy, only saw that he was commanded to live it in the "Work and Glory" series of books. 

A link to the church's website with essays is below, which several church scholars helped write, and some of the same have videos and articles all about church history on FairMormon. So those are the ones to watch or read. 

Here's the church website of all the formerly anti Mormon information. But the essays are more factual and faith promoting. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng

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It’s hard to find any logic in your questions when you continue to ask why the “church” is attacking people by name.  FM is not the Church.  If you’re upset with FM, you can take your complaints to FM.  

The Church did put on a Christmas devotional, I invite you to watch it if you didn’t have a chance to see it last night.

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13 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Yes I came here for a certain reason and I asked 2 questions in my very first post, are these guys professors and is the church using them to attack individuals? Still no answer to those questions.

Yes, you got a response.  It said they are working on a full response.  (FAIRMORMON is a volunteer organization including a bunch of people.  This issue has been percolating for a few days, and I'm sure they are trying to figure this out together.  Don't you want them to get the full story before they respond?   I'm willing to give them the space, so that the response will be full and complete.)

I heard about them the other day, and there has been discussion about them at other sites oriented toward/for the restored Church of Jesus Christ.  You aren't the only one asking.   I have every expectation that you will get a response at the earliest they can put it together.   Maybe your comments could be helpful if you were specific about what you think is a problem.  I'm assuming it is the scantily clad people, and the fact that they have identified specific people as problematic in the way they comment and teach about the Church, and maybe irreverence at putting BY face on a different body? 

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Thank you bluebell and I'm more pissed off than angry. And maybe calm should listen to some advice. I've been a member for 45 years and never really researched anything negative about the church up till a few days ago. I just dont have the time or the energy. I dont do social media, I dont do forums and I dont respond well to negativity as you can tell. To me the church is a positive force in my life and my family's. But what I saw in the videos fairmorm put out isn't positive. Do you want the church attacking people? Go watch the scientology documentary on Netflix if you want to see a religion attacking people but please keep that crap out of the lord's church. I believe the priesthood is a real tangible force that can change people's hearts and that's what we should use to convince people of the truth we believe in not attacking the people who attack us. So bluebell I would like to give carm some advice. Take the videos down that attack individuals on a personal basis and save some face because it's only a matter of time. There's no way the elders of the church will let these videos stay online. Bluebell when I talked to the p r. guy at church headquarters he laughed at me and said there's no way fairmorm put out the videos i told him I had watched. He called me back a couple days later and apologized for doubting what I said. After watching the videos he also emailed fairmorm and told them the same thing I did, that they've gone to far! He's contacting who's ever above him to move this forward. Sorry to say but this was a bad move on the part of fairmorm and it's time to apologize and move on. I was taught to stand up for what is right and that's what I'm doing. 

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There is another thread on this site that absolutely rejects the video I think you are speaking about.   As you are new, you won't be able to comment on it, but you might want to look at it as a preliminary response.

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3 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Thank you bluebell and I'm more pissed off than angry. And maybe calm should listen to some advice. I've been a member for 45 years and never really researched anything negative about the church up till a few days ago. I just dont have the time or the energy. I dont do social media, I dont do forums and I dont respond well to negativity as you can tell. To me the church is a positive force in my life and my family's. But what I saw in the videos fairmorm put out isn't positive. Do you want the church attacking people? Go watch the scientology documentary on Netflix if you want to see a religion attacking people but please keep that crap out of the lord's church. I believe the priesthood is a real tangible force that can change people's hearts and that's what we should use to convince people of the truth we believe in not attacking the people who attack us. So bluebell I would like to give carm some advice. Take the videos down that attack individuals on a personal basis and save some face because it's only a matter of time. There's no way the elders of the church will let these videos stay online. Bluebell when I talked to the p r. guy at church headquarters he laughed at me and said there's no way fairmorm put out the videos i told him I had watched. He called me back a couple days later and apologized for doubting what I said. After watching the videos he also emailed fairmorm and told them the same thing I did, that they've gone to far! He's contacting who's ever above him to move this forward. Sorry to say but this was a bad move on the part of fairmorm and it's time to apologize and move on. I was taught to stand up for what is right and that's what I'm doing. 

We're all just trying to do what what we believe is right, you, me, calm and FAIR.  Sometimes our sincere attempts to stand up for right end up being wrong, and sometimes our sincere attempts to stand up for right end up contradicting other people's sincere attempts to do the same.   

It sounds like a response from FAIR is coming.  I'm waiting to hear it.

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Just now, rpn said:

There is another thread on this site that absolutely rejects the video I think you are speaking about.   As you are new, you won't be able to comment on it, but you might want to look at it as a preliminary response.

He can still comment on it (just can't start threads in that forum yet), but it sounds like he's talking about the This is the Show videos, and not that one with the Inglorious Bastards parody.

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To Rpn. I was specific, the church should not attack individuals! You say fairmorm isn't the church and legally your probably right as far as I can tell.  But if these guys are professors and part of CES then there opinions matter. And I'm sorry but after watching, reading and learning as much as I can in the past days it looks like a convenient way to attack your attackers without bearing any responsibility because fairmorm isn't technically part of the church organization. In the past few days I've watched older videos fairmorm put out and they defend the faith in a very professional way. My complaint and only complaint is the way the attacker individuals. We all know there's crazy people in all organizations, what if one of the crazy mormons we all know sees this as an opportunity to attack this Jeremy guy? Why do you think our apostles have security? Because some people are just plain stupid. Fairmorm should stick with defending the church and stop worrying about these little peons who shouldn't matter if groups like fairmorm are good at their job. Look at me! The only reason I'm on here is because I didn't believe my brother in law trying to tell me that a bunch of byu professors put out a video of Brigham Youngs face on a rapper. 

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1 minute ago, Mike Livingston said:

What's the inglorious bastards parody?

It was a parody made by a third party that is violent and in horrible taste.  It was not made by FAIR or those who have made videos for FAIR.  You can read more about it in the other forum.

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And thank you for responding bluebell. Your right I also think we're all trying to do what's right, even fairmorm. I personally think they got some terrible advice from someone who told them it would be a good idea to put out some hip videos to appeal to the younger generation. Problem is there's still millions of older mormons like me who were taught to respect others no matter what. In my home, young mens or scouts I was always taught to be 100% respectful no matter what. If someone speaks I'll of you turn the other cheek because eventually they'll be the ones who look totally stupid and irrelevant. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Livingston said:

And thank you for responding bluebell. Your right I also think we're all trying to do what's right, even fairmorm. I personally think they got some terrible advice from someone who told them it would be a good idea to put out some hip videos to appeal to the younger generation. Problem is there's still millions of older mormons like me who were taught to respect others no matter what. In my home, young mens or scouts I was always taught to be 100% respectful no matter what. If someone speaks I'll of you turn the other cheek because eventually they'll be the ones who look totally stupid and irrelevant. 

I agree that erring on the side of respect is usually best.

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4 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

are these guys professors and is the church using them to attack individuals?

One is a college student, a few semesters left to go at BYU; the other has a show (.not up on the terms).  Iirc correctly, he said he was not an apologist, but media worker.  

The rest is best left for when the announcement comes out to provide context.  That is likely later today when Scott Gordon is off work, but I don’t know for sure as he had to spend his whole weekend practically juggling FM stuff (this was not the only urgent thing needing to be done).

My apologies for missing stuff, sometimes if stuff is in a solid block my eyes have a hard time not skipping lines. Then there is an issue of my insomnia making it hard to more than one idea in my head at a time. If you could break your posts into smaller paragraphs, it would be very helpful as easier to read the first time through and easier to check what I have covered and what I haven’t. 

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Fair members are members of the church but the church does not run Fair or provide any oversight.

We even had one nonmember there for a bit at the beginning, a Catholic that was more knowledgeable about Mormonism than many Saints. Known for his massive library. 

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