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Pres. Oaks and "Black lives matter"


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1 minute ago, pogi said:

Are you denying that there are "victims" of systemic racism in America?  Was President Oaks wrong?

Well, I'm still not sure what you mean by "systemic racism."  The Vox article you pointed to in turn points to a series of facile, conclusory one-minute videos that don't really help in defining the term.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 minute ago, pogi said:

Are you denying that there are "victims" of systemic racism in America?  Was President Oaks wrong?

I tend to agree with Smac that, like many buzz words and buzz phrases, its meaning is too nebulous to have much usefulness or value. 
 

Why can’t we just identify and rid ourselves of racism where we find it without attaching the “systemic” appellation to it?

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28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

He didn't say that.  

Give me a break. 

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There are many examples of racism in recent American history. The examples most familiarly reported by the media today are those that victimize Black Americans. These include the police brutality and other systemic discrimination in employment and housing publicized recently. Racism is still recognizable in official and personal treatment of Latinos and Native Americans.

He was saying that "systemic discrimination" is evidence of racism today.   It is "systemic".  It is in "America". That is what he said. 

Edited by pogi
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11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Well, I'm still not sure what you mean by "systemic racism."  The Vox article you pointed to in turn points to a series of facile, conclusory one-minute videos that don't really help in defining the term.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Give me a break. 

He was saying that "systemic discrimination" is evidence of racism today.   It is systemic.  It is in America. That is what he said. 

Trying to get a handle on what you and others might mean by “systemic racism,” I looked for an online dictionary definition of “systemic.” Here’s what I found:

“relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.“ 

So I take from that that if an institution or a nation is “systemically racist,” it is Inherently irredeemable, irreparable. It cannot be remedied as is but must be dismantled or destroyed. 
 

If that is what is meant by the term, there can be little wonder that radicals are calling for the abolishment of police, the destruction of our national monuments, the elimination of our shared history and heritage, the destruction of businesses by looting and arson, etc. 

I dearly hope that’s not what you are advocating. I know it’s not what President Oaks wants, as he decried such things. 

 

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19 minutes ago, pogi said:

Give me a break. 

I'm not sure what you mean.

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He was saying that "systemic discrimination" is evidence of racism today.   

Okay.

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It is "systemic".  It is in "America". That is what he said. 

No, that's not what he said.  

Pres. Oaks is a former attorney and Utah Supreme Court Justice.  I think he seldom is loosey-goosey in how he chooses his words, particularly as to important and sensitive topics.

And I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you saying the United States is "systemically racist?"  I don't know what that means.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I tend to agree with Smac that, like many buzz words and buzz phrases, its meaning is too nebulous to have much usefulness or value. 
 

Why can’t we just identify and rid ourselves of racism where we find it without attaching the “systemic” appellation to it?

 I don't understand the recoil at the term.  It exists 

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NAACP President Derrick Johnson calls systemic racism "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantage African Americans."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/23/systemic-racism-how-really-define-column/5845788002/

...And I would add other races, as well (even whites).  It is systemic, it is in America.  I don't know how anyone can deny it at this point. 

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19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Trying to get a handle on what you and others might mean by “systemic racism,” I looked for an online dictionary definition of “systemic.” Here’s what I found:

“relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.“ 

So I take from that that if an institution or a nation is “systemically racist,” it is Inherently irredeemable, irreparable. It cannot be remedied as is but must be dismantled or destroyed. 
 

If that is what is meant by the term, there can be little wonder that radicals are calling for the abolishment of police, the destruction of our national monuments, the elimination of our shared history and heritage, the destruction of businesses by looting and arson, etc. 

I dearly hope that’s not what you are advocating. I know it’s not what President Oaks wants, as he decried such things. 

 

I am not advocating for the abolishment of the police or destruction of property, etc.  

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So I take from that that if an institution or a nation is “systemically racist,” it is Inherently irredeemable, irreparable. It cannot be remedied as is but must be dismantled or destroyed. 

Is a person with a systemic infection "irreparable"?  Can they not be "remedied"? Should they be "dismantled or destroyed"?  Eradicating a systemic problem doesn't require destroying the institution.   

Edited by pogi
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3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's not what is meant by the term.

When someone uses the term systemic racism they are saying that racism is embedded as normal practice within our society.

Which I believe is debatable. To say it is “normal practice” is to say that it happens more often than not (the definition of “normal”). Many people reject that belief, including some black opinion leaders such as Candace Owens. 
 

I think it would be difficult to prove definitively in this day and age that racism “is embedded as normal practice” though it is unquestionable that it occurs. 

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18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, that's not what he said.  

He said it (discrimination, which he uses as an example of racism) is "systemic".  How can you deny it?  It is right there in the quote. 

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not advocating for the abolishment of the police or destruction of property, etc.  

Is a person with a systemic infection "irreparable"?  Can they not be "remedied"? Should they be "dismantled or destroyed"?  Eradicating a systemic problem doesn't require destroying the institution.   

Seems to me a systemic disease would be a fatal one. 

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7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Which I believe is debatable. To say it is “normal practice” is to say that it happens more often than not (the definition of “normal”). Many people reject that belief, including some black opinion leaders such as Candace Owens. 
 

I think it would be difficult to prove definitively in this day and age that racism “is embedded as normal practice” though it is unquestionable that it occurs. 

Yes, everything is debatable.  Otherwise this message board wouldn't exist.

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3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think secular humanism has some interesting ideas in the abstract, but in practice...

It's also not particularly coherent.  Elder Dallin H. Oaks addressed it a bit in 2015:

Yep.

Secular humanism is the ultimate have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too philosophy.  It accepts the law, but rejects the lawgiver.  It's tantamount to being an ardent admirer and devotee the works of Shakespeare, while simultaneously insisting that these works were not authored by Shakespeare or anyone else.  They just . . . are.  They sprang into existence somehow.  

Secular humanism can only exist an a pluralistic-but-still-predicated-on-judeo-christian-ethos society.  It relies on the very bedrock it rejects: an external and superior arbiter of right and wrong.  It then proceeds to arrogate that role for themselves.  It wants all of the rights and benefits arising from morality, but wants to remain at liberty to reject any responsibilities or constraints that are bothersome or inconvenient or socially unpopular.

Having said that, I affirm the right of secular humanists to believe as they like, and to share what they believe.  Alma 30:7-9 puts it well:

Thanks,

-Smac

Interestingly a God proposition leaves each individual to interpret internal direction as if it's from God.  The critiques here are just silly because of that.  If God is working on the individual, internally directing that which is good, and we are to individually decide if it is God, then that is not much different then the critiques just offered.  The benefit on my side, of course, is reason wins out.  With God one has to square a bunch of nonsense with things like common sense.  

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5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seems to me a systemic disease would be a fatal one. 

High blood pressure and the flu are both defined as systemic diseases.  They can be fatal under certain circumstances (ignoring the problem, for example, can make it fatal when it didn't need to be), but they usually aren't.

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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bilge water. 

nah...true that's been the problem.  Defining a certain race as less faithful or noble based on something we can't know, like before we lived on this earth, is divisive and of course discriminatory based on race.  and of course, that's just one example.  

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When we speak of systemic racism existing, then it seems we are saying:

  1. The system itself is biased against people by virtue of their ancestry, or
  2. The administrators of the system implement the system in a way that is biased against people by virtue of their ancestry, or
  3. Both.

Questions:

  1. Can anyone cite a current American example of a law biased against any particular race?
  2. Can anyone find a current American example of a racially-neutral law being wrongfully applied unequally towards any particular race?
  3. Can anyone find a current American example of both of these occurring at once?

Bonus questions:

For those who believe systemic racism exists, if it could be shown by a preponderance of the evidence that racially disparate outcomes are entirely attributable to the normal outworkings of economics and inheritable differences of abilities between races, would that be reason to reevaluate your position?  Why or why not?

And for those who deny systemic racism exists, if it could be shown that the normal outworkings of economics reliably lead to certain races winning and certain races losing when they are placed in certain competitive contexts by virtue of inheritable differences in abilities between races, would that inheritable racial imbalance be sufficient reason to reevaluate your position as to the desirability of economic competition?  Why or why not?

Edited by Jared Livesey
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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seems to me a systemic disease would be a fatal one. 

Nope.   Covid is systemic, in fact it is a multi-systemic infectious disease.   It infects almost every single system in the body including the circulatory system / Cardiovascular system, digestive system (including the liver, etc.), integumentary system, immune system and lymphatic system, muscular system, nervous system, renal system, respiratory system, etc. 

Most live. 
 

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4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

High blood pressure and the flu are both defined as systemic diseases.  They can be fatal under certain circumstances (ignoring the problem, for example, can make it fatal when it didn't need to be), but they usually aren't.

Some systemic diseases, such as arthritis and some forms of cancer are incurable if not fatal. 
 

Applying it to the topic at hand, do you believe that our police forces today are systemically racist to the point they must be abolished, as some radicals are calling for?

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:
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No, that's not what he said.  

He said it (discrimination, which he uses as an example of racism) is "systemic". 

He said:

Quote

“The examples most familiarly reported by the media today are those that victimize Black Americans,” he said. “These include the police brutality and other systemic discrimination in employment and housing, publicized recently."

 

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

How can you deny it?  It is right there in the quote. 

I'm not denying what he said.  I'm questioning your gloss/embellishment.

Pres. Oaks spoke of "systemic discrimination in employment and housing" that has been "publicized recently."  I would like to better understand what he meant by it.

But you continue to speak of "systemic racism" in a much broader, more generalized sense.  And yet you can't/won't define what "systemic racism" is.

Jim Crow laws were examples of "systemic racism."  The "institutions" or "systems" were the governments that enacted and enforced such laws.

Race-based lending practices could be examples of systemic/institutional racism, with the systems/institutions being the banks that maintained and applied such practices.

So what are the systems/institutions that you have in mind?  And what are they doing that is "racist?"

Thanks,

-Smac

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It is funny, most white people don't seem to have a problem seeing systemic discrimination/racism when it applies to them, but they throw a fit when people of color suggest that systemic racism exists, discriminating against them.  

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57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It gets complicated when people try to make it a matter of ideology with all the associated baggage (abolishing police, defacing national monuments, looting stores, burning churches, excusing criminal behavior, enforcing political correctness, etc.) Hence, I embrace the sentiment that black lives matter but have come to abhor the movement that goes by that title. 

Me too.

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23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But you continue to speak of "systemic racism" in a much broader, more generalized sense. 

No, I'm not. 

I am simply suggesting that "systemic discrimination" (as he described it) is an example of systemic racism in America. 

Edited by pogi
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