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Jared Livesey

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  1. The question is loaded because the claim that blacks are disproportionately harmed by law enforcement on the basis of race is not a shared observation, but a contestable claim. I point you again towards the hypothetical Supreme Court justice who over her career hires 1 law clerk from a race that makes up 13.4% of the US population, and 149 law clerks from other races. I might ask, directly analogous to your question, "whether in light of those observations do you have any reason to think this Supreme Court justice is not motivated by racial animus in her hiring policies and practices?" Yet the loaded nature of the question is readily apparent - the hidden assumption being smuggled in is that all races possess aptitude for the job equal to their proportion in the population, which, if true, would entail that racially disparate outcomes can only be the result of discrimination on the basis of race. That assumption is not an observation, but a contestable claim. The hiring data given in the hypothetical does not prove the contested claim, since the data might be fully accounted for on a basis other than racial discrimination, such as by the existence of differences in aptitudes between the races. I have been asking you variations of the same question: how do you know blacks are disproportionately harmed by law enforcement on the basis of race? How do you know there is not a relevant criterion upon which law enforcement action is predicated which just so happens to be more concentrated among blacks than it is among other races? If such a criterion exists, then much, if not all, of the alleged disproportionately baleful effects of law enforcement upon the black community might be explained by those meeting the relevant criterion being themselves disproportionately represented among blacks. Neither disproportionate racial representation nor racially disparate outcomes is necessarily evidence of racial discrimination.
  2. @CV75 If I rhetorically characterize my claims as observations, then they aren't claims? Hit my post limit, unfortunately. I guess I don't quite understand your question. Whether what? Could you restate it?
  3. Well, it is only a working conclusion that you won't answer the question. Analogously, if you ask me "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" and if I were to respond, "upon what basis do you claim I beat my wife?" my question would take logical priority. After all, the point of your question would not really be to ascertain whether I have stopped beating my wife, but to make the accusation, at the least, that I have beaten her, and my question would address the potentially false accusation entailed in your question.
  4. I prefer to call things by their true names. It helps clarify things. "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington
  5. Ok, you don't know if it is possible for policies to be racially neutral and to be applied racially neutrally and yet have racially disparate or disproportionate outcomes. Would you agree that coercing people upon a basis that you aren't sure of is unjust - or, to put it in more actionable terms - do you want people to coerce you over things that may not exist?
  6. No, it does not take long to see that no fruit is forthcoming - the third time was the charm.
  7. Speaking very bluntly, and only because you asked, my working conclusion is to not attempt to engage you in conversation, as it proves fruitless.
  8. No, and that's not the topic I was speaking on. No, and that's not the topic I was speaking on. That depends on what we mean by "race." "Ancestral background" is a more verbose equivalent to what I use "race" to mean. Otherwise, I suppose we might type out "the human subspecies of whites of Northern European descent" and "the human subspecies of Sub-Saharan African Blacks," and so on, instead of using the words "whites," "blacks," and so on. How would you answer the questions I posed?
  9. My conclusion is that my question - is "disproportionate" or "disparate" "outcomes" by race sufficient to prove a charge of racial animus, such as the alleged existence of white "systemic racism" - has gone unanswered the three times I have posed it to you, and by that evidence you are disinclined to answer it. Fair enough. A necessary condition to problem solving is having an actual problem to solve. Suppose one sets about to solve the problem of "systemic racism," by which is meant white racism, but everywhere one looks, one cannot find it - the rules are racially neutral, and they are applied racially neutrally - and everything one tries does not eliminate its alleged symptoms, such as disparate or disproportionate outcomes, then one will begin to suspect the problem isn't the system - one will suspect the problem is whites qua whites. That reasoning ends in pogroms and holocausts. It seems wise to me, though I concede many disagree, to find out the truth first, and then see if the problem as originally hypothesized exists. If disparate or disproportionate outcomes may possibly not be the result of racial animus, but instead be explicable entirely as the normal outworkings of heritable differences in abilities among humans that are in competition with one another for resources, power, reproductive opportunities, pleasure, and popularity, then disparate or disproportionate outcomes may not be symptomatic of "systemic racism," and thus not evidence for its existence.
  10. Is it possible that government policy on a broader scale has a disproportionately negative effect on black citizens and communities, and yet the government policy on a broader scale be neutral with respect to ancestral background? If not, why not? If so, how does ancestral background become relevant to government policy, or, in other words, why are we talking about race?
  11. Is "disproportion" relevant? Suppose, as a pure hypothetical, over the course of her judgeship a Supreme Court justice hires one law clerk of a certain ancestral background that comprises approximately 13.4% of the general US population, and one hundred forty-nine law clerks not of that ancestral background, for a total of 150 law clerks. For reference, 1/150 is approximately 0.67% of law clerks coming from this ancestral background, which is less than the 13.4% this group comprises of the general population. If the justice hires law clerks proportional to their numbers in the general population with respect to their ancestral background, we would expect her to hire around .134 x 150 = 20 of them from this group. Would racial animus be implicated in this hypothetical twenty-fold disparity hiring with respect to ancestral background? Why or why not? And if not, why should law enforcement disproportionately (with respect to their numbers in the population) affecting Black citizens and communities be considered problematic?
  12. If our goal is to do as the Lord has commanded, neither more nor less, then we simply do not avail ourselves of Dr. Nelson's professional services. The Lord changes not (3 Nephi 24:6), and cannot contradict himself (2 Nephi 9:17; Mosiah 15:27; 3 Nephi 27:18; 2 Timothy 2:13), and the list under consideration, which itself is a "new revelation," is a repetition of the teaching of the Bible on healthcare (James 5:14-15). The point of the teaching is to persuade us to submit to all things the Lord sees fit to inflict upon us (Mosiah 3:19), remembering that his hand is in all things (D&C 59:21; Mosiah 2:21; Romans 8:28). We can, of course, rebel against him, strive to control our fate, lay up treasures for ourselves on the Earth, appeal to doctors and lawyers and politicians to save and protect us from the vicissitudes of nature and our enemies and extend and improve the quality of our lives, and hopefully, whilst perhaps medicated into painlessness, die in our sleep, surrounded by our loved ones, but that's not what he asked us to do (Luke 6:20-49; Matt 5-7, 3 Nephi 12-15:10). It is easy to check to see if it is true that the phrase "eternal progression" does not occur in the scriptures as I claim. To some, its absence might be significant, even if it is not to others. I am.
  13. The entire test of this life is only to see if we will do all things whatsoever God commands us (Abr. 3:25), even at the cost of our lives (JST Matt 16:27). If therefore our goal is to keep God's commandments, no more and no less, then we should do what he said to do with respect to health care, which is entirely contained in D&C 42:43-52. "And that not by the hand of an enemy." Who would go to an enemy to be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food? Or, perhaps we might more appropriately ask, what divides our friends from our enemies? After all, whoever wants to save his life in this world shall lose it in the world to come (JST Matt 16:27). The function of a prophet, if he is acting as a prophet, is to repeat the words the Lord God commands him to repeat. As for eternal progression, the phrase does not occur in the scriptures.
  14. "A man never spiritualizes, nor interprets, only when he does not believe what is written." This is consistent with Joseph's Rule of Interpretation. In light of this thread, however, it suggests a question: would an early Mormon of Joseph's persuasion, such as one holding the view in the quoted material above, believe modern Mormonism to be his own faith?
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