Specifically, Being Ordained to a Priesthood Office and Having Priesthood Authority Conferred Upon You Means What?

[nuclearfuels]

1. If inspiration = priesthood, why are they then ordained and conferred? Is it because bearing the preisthood within certain offices is eternal and using the preisthood in callings is temporary (as almost all callings are)?
2. Men and women serve in the Temple, why then are some of them ordained and some not - if they're exercising the same authority?
3. Specifically then, being ordained to a priesthood office (deacon, teacher, priest, elder, high priest, bishop, etc.) and having priesthood authority conferred upon you (Aaronic or Melchizedek) means what?

Today, Latter-day Saint women lead three organizations within the Church: the Relief Society, the Young Women, and the Primary. They preach and pray in congregations, fill numerous positions of leadership and service, participate in priesthood councils at the local and general levels, and serve formal proselytizing missions across the globe. In these and other ways, women exercise priesthood authority even though they are not ordained to priesthood office.⁵⁸

^{https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng (emphasis added by me)}

"...even though these presiding authorities hold and exercise all of the keys delegated to men in this dispensation, they are not free to alter the divinely decreed pattern that only men will hold offices in the priesthood...^{(emphasis added by me)}

....The greatest power God has given to His sons cannot be exercised without the companionship of one of His daughters, because only to His daughters has God given the power “to be a creator of bodies … so that God’s design and the Great Plan might meet fruition.”¹² Those are the words of President J. Reuben Clark.

He continued: “This is the place of our wives and of our mothers in the Eternal Plan. They are not bearers of the Priesthood; they are not charged with carrying out the duties and functions of the Priesthood; nor are they laden with its responsibilities; they are builders and organizers under its power, and partakers of its blessings, possessing the complement of the Priesthood powers and possessing a function as divinely called, as eternally important in its place as the Priesthood itself.”¹³

^{https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng (emphasis added by me)}

I repeat something I stated in the April 2013 general conference: “In our Heavenly Father’s great priesthood-endowed plan, men have the unique responsibility to administer the priesthood, but they are not the priesthood. Men and women have different but equally valued roles. Just as a woman cannot conceive a child without a man, so a man cannot fully exercise the power of the priesthood to establish an eternal family without a woman. … In the eternal perspective, both the procreative power and the priesthood power are shared by husband and wife.”³

Why are men—and not women—ordained to priesthood offices? President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) explained that “it was the Lord,” not man, “who designated that men in His Church should hold the priesthood” and who endowed women with “capabilities to round out this great and marvelous organization, which is the Church and kingdom of God.”⁴ The Lord has not revealed why He has organized His Church as He has.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/09/men-and-women-and-priesthood-power?lang=eng

[JLHPROF]

1.  Priesthood is not the same as inspiration.  Priesthood is eternal, some offices are, some are not.

2. Some temple work uses delegated authority, some requires the person to have received authority of their own.  And the priesthood of the temple is of a different order than the priesthood administering the Church.

3. Specifically being ordained to an office is to fulfill that office's function.  Every office has duties and responsibilities.  That is the purpose of office.

Women have priesthood through the temple.  This is more eternal in nature and has been about uniting male and female to rule and reign since the beginning.

The responsibility of administering the laws and ordinances of the Church is more temporal and is restricted to men as it has been from the beginning.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

1.  Priesthood is not the same as inspiration.  Priesthood is eternal, some offices are, some are not.

2. Some temple work uses delegated authority, some requires the person to have received authority of their own.  And the priesthood of the temple is of a different order than the priesthood administering the Church.

3. Specifically being ordained to an office is to fulfill that office's function.  Every office has duties and responsibilities.  That is the purpose of office.

Women have priesthood through the temple.  This is more eternal in nature and has been about uniting male and female to rule and reign since the beginning.

The responsibility of administering the laws and ordinances of the Church is more temporal and is restricted to men as it has been from the beginning.

Do you have a non LDS reference for the bold, or is this just in LDS scripture?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

1.  Priesthood is not the same as inspiration.  Priesthood is eternal, some offices are, some are not.

2. Some temple work uses delegated authority, some requires the person to have received authority of their own.  And the priesthood of the temple is of a different order than the priesthood administering the Church.

3. Specifically being ordained to an office is to fulfill that office's function.  Every office has duties and responsibilities.  That is the purpose of office.

Women have priesthood through the temple.  This is more eternal in nature and has been about uniting male and female to rule and reign since the beginning.

The responsibility of administering the laws and ordinances of the Church is more temporal and is restricted to men as it has been from the beginning.

Correct.

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1. If inspiration = priesthood, why are they then ordained and conferred? Is it because bearing the preisthood within certain offices is eternal and using the preisthood in callings is temporary (as almost all callings are)?

The priesthood is eternal, and women are a full part of it as gods.  Meantime, they perform regular priesthood ordinances in the temple.  What women can and cannot do is different according to the dispensation, and in the economy of God.  Women, for example, have been prophets, and have been able to perform healing ordinances.

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1. Men and women serve in the Temple, why then are some of them ordained and some not - if they're exercising the same authority?
2. Specifically then, being ordained to a priesthood office (deacon, teacher, priest, elder, high priest, bishop, etc.) and having priesthood authority conferred upon you (Aaronic or Melchizedek) means what?

#1 correct.  #2 varies according to the economy of God, and according to different dispensations.  For example, the Aaronic Priesthood was only instituted for Israel under Moses, and continues among the Jews today.

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Today, Latter-day Saint women lead three organizations within the Church: the Relief Society, the Young Women, and the Primary. They preach and pray in congregations, fill numerous positions of leadership and service, participate in priesthood councils at the local and general levels, and serve formal proselytizing missions across the globe. In these and other ways, women exercise priesthood authority even though they are not ordained to priesthood office.⁵⁸

^{https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng (emphasis added by me)........}

Correct.

.............It is clearly wrong to say “This is the place of our wives and of our mothers in the Eternal Plan. They are not bearers of the Priesthood; they are not charged with carrying out the duties and functions of the Priesthood"^{.................}

^{As pointed out by Pres Oaks, Women regularly perform priesthood ordinances in the temple.}

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

^{................................................}

Why are men—and not women—ordained to priesthood offices? President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) explained that “it was the Lord,” not man, “who designated that men in His Church should hold the priesthood” and who endowed women with “capabilities to round out this great and marvelous organization, which is the Church and kingdom of God.”⁴ The Lord has not revealed why He has organized His Church as He has.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/09/men-and-women-and-priesthood-power?lang=eng

Correct.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct.

The priesthood is eternal, and women are a full part of it as gods.  Meantime, they perform regular priesthood ordinances in the temple.  What women can and cannot do is different according to the dispensation, and in the economy of God.  Women, for example, have been prophets, and have been able to perform healing ordinances.

#1 correct.  #2 varies according to the economy of God, and according to different dispensations.  For example, the Aaronic Priesthood was only instituted for Israel under Moses, and continues among the Jews today.

Correct.

.............It is clearly wrong to say “This is the place of our wives and of our mothers in the Eternal Plan. They are not bearers of the Priesthood; they are not charged with carrying out the duties and functions of the Priesthood"^{.................}

^{As pointed out by Pres Oaks, Women regularly perform priesthood ordinances in the temple.}

Correct.

Hahaha! Correct!! Boy, you're a lot of help aren'tcha!!

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do you have a non LDS reference for the bold, or is this just in LDS scripture?

Why would I have a non-LDS reference for something only the LDS believe?

And the reference is precedence.  With one single debatable reference to a female holding Church priesthood office in all of scripture throughout all dispensations I think we can say God's pattern is pretty well established.  (Prophecy does not require priesthood).

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why would I have a non-LDS reference for something only the LDS believe?

And the reference is precedence.  With one single debatable reference to a female holding Church priesthood office in all of scripture throughout all dispensations I think we can say God's pattern is pretty well established.  (Prophecy does not require priesthood).

Anyone, even small children can prophecy.  However, being a prophet is another matter.  It may not require priesthood, but it is not a commonly held title among women, which is why it is worth mentioning.  The holy records we do have do not tell us everything we would like to know.  Will be interesting to explore this matter on the other side.

[The Nehor]

It means the elements themselves must obey my every command. Unfortunately it currently has a proviso about also being the will of God but hopefully that is temporary.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The responsibility of administering the laws and ordinances of the Church is more temporal and is restricted to men as it has been from the beginning.

In some ways, yes.  Other ways no, as women adminster in the mission of the Church to teach and serve the poor and others in need, among other things.  Is it not part of the laws of the Church to care for those in need as well as to teach the Gospel?

Edited July 3, 2020 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

In some ways, yes.  Other ways no, as women adminster in the mission of the Church to teach and serve the poor and others in need, among other things.  Is it not part of the laws of the Church to care for those in need as well as to teach the Gospel?

Of course, but those things are neither unique to the Church nor requiring of priesthood authority.  Any Church can serve the poor or teach the gospel (if they have it to teach).

But to offer valid authorized ordinances outside of the eternal temple order of priesthood has always been limited to men.    The priesthood of the temple has always been about men and women together.  The priesthood administering the Church on Earth has always fallen to men in every dispensation.

Almost certainly referring to temple ordinances Joseph Smith stated he "was going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch’s day— as in Paul[‘]s day".

But speaking of Churches he also said "Johanna Southcott professed to be a prophetess, and wrote a book of prophecies in 1804, she became the founder of a people that are still extant.  Independent of this, however, where do we read of a woman that was the founder of a church, in the word of God? ...he (the Apostle Paul) would not suffer a woman "to rule, or to usurp authority in the church;" but here we find a woman the founder of a church, the revelator and guide, the Alpha and Omega, contrary to all acknowledged rule, principle, and order."

And "It may be asked, where is there anything in all this that is wrong?

First. The church was organized by women, and God placed in the Church (first apostles, secondarily prophets,) and not first women; but Mr. Irving placed in his church first women (secondarily apostles,) and the church was founded and organized by them. A woman has no right to found or organize a church--God never sent them to do it."

Edited July 4, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

I wonder about the blessings women gave to others in childbirth. I need to find and read where my great great grandmother was given a calling to do such after she had completed a medical course, I am assuming to be a midwife but not a lot of details included. I know she was blessed by three men in authority, my mind says it was the Presiding Bishop and his counselors, but it has been a decade since I read it, so not sure.  I don’t know if the language indicated she was set apart, ordained, or neither but my memory leans towards ordained for some reason (which is why I really want to reread that).

One of these days I need to read a book or three on those. 

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder about the blessings women gave to others in childbirth. I need to find and read where my great great grandmother was given a calling to do such after she had completed a medical course, I am assuming to be a midwife but not a lot of details included. I know she was blessed by three men in authority, my mind says it was the Presiding Bishop and his counselors, but it has been a decade since I read it, so not sure.  I don’t know if the language indicated she was set apart, ordained, or neither but my memory leans towards ordained for some reason (which is why I really want to reread that).

One of these days I need to read a book or three on those. 

Mother's blessings were similar to the initiatory.  I would expect the authority used by women in that case to be similar to that of women in the temple.  In other words not ecclesiastical but of the temple order.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Women have priesthood through the temple. 

Women are not "ordained" but "set apart".  Yet every priesthood holder is ordained to an office and then "set apart" in his calling.

All authority comes through the priesthood but even "the priesthood" must be set apart for their calling.  As a bishop I was "ordained" to the office and then "set apart" as the bishop.

No, women are not "ordained" yet in the church, but they ARE set apart for every calling they hold just as men are- and setting apart specifically gives them the authority delegated to them through the priesthood just as men are.

I have been privileged to participate in the setting apart of sisters (my wife and daughter) as temple workers, and in both cases the wording was very similar to my being set apart for the calling. No temple workers are "ordained" to an office, not even the temple president and matron, but all are set apart by someone who does have the keys to do so.

Being set apart in both cases confers the ability to perform very specific tasks within the church, if it is as a primary leader, an Elder's Quorum counselor, or temple worker.

In a sense every calling a woman receives relies upon her use of delegated priesthood authority just as it does for men, the difference being of course that women do not receive the more general authority of the priesthood itself.

But in practical terms, at times it is a distinction without a difference.

Only a very few priesthood holders in a ward hold actual "keys" of authority, and yet all who receive any kind of calling are set apart by laying on of hands and given the authority to do whatever it is they are called to do.

[nuclearfuels]

On 7/3/2020 at 10:40 AM, JLHPROF said:

1.  Priesthood is not the same as inspiration.  Priesthood is eternal, some offices are, some are not.

2. Some temple work uses delegated authority, some requires the person to have received authority of their own.  And the priesthood of the temple is of a different order than the priesthood administering the Church.

3. Specifically being ordained to an office is to fulfill that office's function.  Every office has duties and responsibilities.  That is the purpose of office.

Women have priesthood through the temple.  This is more eternal in nature and has been about uniting male and female to rule and reign since the beginning.

The responsibility of administering the laws and ordinances of the Church is more temporal and is restricted to men as it has been from the beginning.

Thank you, JLHProf.

I thought the priesthood used to run the church and run the Temples was the same; Melchizedek, no? 

Or are you saying temporary achurch and Temple are maanged by different keys of the same preisthood?

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But in practical terms, at times it is a distinction without a difference.

Thank you, MFB.

Why then are men and young men ordained?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you, JLHProf.

I thought the priesthood used to run the church and run the Temples was the same; Melchizedek, no? 

Or are you saying temporary achurch and Temple are maanged by different keys of the same preisthood?

"All priesthood is Melchizedek; but there are different portions or degrees of it."

"There are three grand orders of priesthood referred to here.

1st. The King of Shiloam (Salem) had power and authority over that of Abraham, holding the key and the power of endless life…. The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right from the eternal God, and not by descent from father and mother; and that priesthood is as eternal as God Himself, having neither beginning of days nor end of life.

The 2nd Priesthood is Patriarchal authority. Go to and finish the temple, and God will fill it with power, and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood.

The 3rd is what is called the Levitical Priesthood, consisting of priests to administer in outward ordinances, made without an oath; but the Priesthood of Melchizedek is by an oath and covenant."

[mfbukowski]

On 7/4/2020 at 4:02 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you, MFB.

Why then are men and young men ordained?

Well note that women are not "ordained" ever, but they ARE "set apart".

So ordination gives one the authority to function in several ecclesiastical roles- for example when one is ordained an Elder, one can do everything in the "lesser priesthood" as well as be eligible to become a bishop, receive one's endowments, confirm new members etc- the priesthood and the "keys" are potential things one could have authority to do, even if their calling at the time is not to do those things.  So young men are ordained to perform certain callings - like blessing the sacrament- to help them learn how the system works.  So they can do that function and little else.

So one could be ordained a bishop and yet be called to be a primary teacher (teaching young children gospel principles).   He would have potentially (if called) a bishop, but would not be serving in that calling at that time.  He could be a former bishop, for example

But one must be "set apart" as a calling to do ANY calling in the church.  A bishop would still be "set apart" in the calling of primary teacher- and that means that he could have special insight to help those particuar children to teach those kids 

So being set apart is dependent on one's calling.

Being ordained specifies what callings one is ELIGIBLE to hold.  But only men are ordained to the priesthood.

So now it gets a little complicated.

In the case of women temple workers- women cannot be ordained into the Melchizedek priesthood- for men such an ordination is necessary to even enter the temple.

But it is necessary that women work in the temple to perform certain ordinances.  

So in those cases they are "set apart" under the authority of the Temple President who has the "keys" AND the "ordination" - both of which are the necessary and sufficient authority to do so- to "set apart" women to perform these ordinances.

So in the church ANYONE must be set apart in ANY calling, and that must be under the authority of someone else who has the "keys" and/or the proper ordination to do so.

Temple presidents have the authority- the keys AND ordination to set apart women for that calling.   IN my case I could "stand in" on the setting apart of my wife because I had the M. priesthood AND a temple recommend AND was a set- apart temple worker at the time.  But I was only "standing in"- I was able to put my hands on her head while the temple president also did while HE did the speaking and said what is necessary and I just also held my hands on her head.

Probably clear as mud? 

It is not unlike governmental authority - which can be complex.  

Edited July 6, 2020 by mfbukowski

[nuclearfuels]

On 7/5/2020 at 9:04 PM, mfbukowski said:

But one must be "set apart" as a calling to do ANY calling in the church.  A bishop would still be "set apart" in the calling of primary teacher- and that means that he could have special insight to help those particuar children to teach those kids

Special insight / inspiration then = operating w/ preisthood authority (Pres. Bingham)?

On 7/3/2020 at 10:40 AM, JLHPROF said:

1.  Priesthood is not the same as inspiration.  Priesthood is eternal, some offices are, some are not.

Exercising that preisthood authority then is different (how?) than exercising the priesthood as an ordained/conferred upon, etc. male?

On 7/3/2020 at 12:41 AM, nuclearfuels said:

women exercise priesthood authority even though they are not ordained to priesthood office.⁵⁸

^{https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng (emphasis added by me)}

Although women are not ordained to a priesthood office, as noted previously women are blessed with priesthood power as they keep their covenants, and they operate with priesthood authority when they are set apart to a calling. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/34bingham?lang=eng

[Ahab]

40 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Special insight / inspiration then = operating w/ preisthood authority (Pres. Bingham)?

Exercising that preisthood authority then is different (how?) than exercising the priesthood as an ordained/conferred upon, etc. male?

Although women are not ordained to a priesthood office, as noted previously women are blessed with priesthood power as they keep their covenants, and they operate with priesthood authority when they are set apart to a calling. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/34bingham?lang=eng

I think of the authority/authorization of God as if God is saying to me "I give you my permission to do something."  Having the authority/authorization of God to bless the sacrament, for example, means I have God's permission to do that.

Now suppose I somehow have some special insight / inspiration which enables me to understand something better than somebody else understands it.  I don't think that would be because God gave me his permission to understand it better than some other person. Even if I had God's permission to understand that it wouldn't necessarily mean I would.  So an ability to do something isn't necessarily dependent on having God's permission to do it.  And yet authority/authorization from God is all about God giving his permission/authorization/authority to do it.

So why can a woman do something God has authorized men to do?  Because God gave his permission AND because the woman is able to do it.

But can a woman do something God has not given her permission to do?  I would say maybe, if she can actually do it, but that wouldn't necessarily mean she had God's permission to do it.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Special insight / inspiration then = operating w/ preisthood authority (Pres. Bingham)?

Not equal, no guarantees.

Operating with priesthood authority is more like having a "license" to act as set apart and to do so with authority.

Cops have legal authority- unless they violate that trust.   Inspiration makes it more likely that one will get it right.