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Two Anecdotes Re: Most Foreign Missionaries Coming Home


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5 hours ago, rongo said:

How could there be foreign calls reporting in April? There aren't any flights, countries won't let foreigners in, and as for getting visas . . . 

Can you give some examples of places/missions? That's really interesting. April? That's three days away. 

I'll keep watching for them.  There are 21,000 people on the group so it goes pretty quick and I'm not finding them now.  Things kind of go in spurts so I have to hit it at the right time of day.  Right now there are a ton of posts about missionaries coming home and trying to get home etc so there is a lot to go through.

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4 hours ago, Anijen said:

A General Authority personally told me a sister may leave [her] mission at any time and it will be counted as honorably served. [She] can go home to get married, get home sick, etc., [she] will return as [a] returned sister missionary This is of course is if [she was] honorably serving at the time.

Interesting. I hadn’t known that before. 
 

It’s certainly consistent with the understanding that a young sister missionary does not bear the same obligation as a young elder missionary. 

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I talked to the APs tonite and asked them if they are expecting new missionaries and they had no idea if or when. I would presume so if all the Canadians serving worldwide are coming back at least some would be assigned here, I assume anyways. I would also assume though that being two cooped up with your comp is band enough but then to get a stranger and now have 3 would be sucky ducky

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you prefer the Church assume the worst and just send everyone home or try to keep open their options as long as there are options to be had?  Serious question...there are times I have said we need a solid plan, so toss the variable and stick with what will stick.  

I have said from the beginning that I feel missionaries should have been left in the missions. If Corona is as communicable as we're being told, flying tens of thousands home **right at this time** seems worse to me than simply leaving them there and "sheltering in place" (I'm really tired of the euphemistic buzzwords this has spawned. "Social distancing," etc.). I think the Church's response all along has tended to be a knee-jerk reaction to public opinion, the shifting sands of government caprice, and above all, "optics" (how the Church is perceived). The Church is hypersensitive to criticism in the media, and its actions can be depended on to be "rabbit-eared." In my opinion, the Church's actions with this haven't been revelatory or prophetic, but out of an "abundance of caution" (another buzzword), and out of a desire to be seen as a "good neighbor," "good member of the community," and a "team player." I don't dismiss these considerations lightly --- they are very important. But, I don't think the damage inflicted on the worldwide missionary program was commensurate with the actual and perceived threat of the Coronavirus phenomenon.

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This is a constantly evolving situation, there is no real way to predict what the rules governments (state and country and even cities) are going to be making next week, so the only way to have solid info right now is to just move to the extreme position of no missions.

Well, there's prophecy and revelation . . . :) The Church can charter whole planes (cf. the ubiquitous pictures on the internet). In the unlikely event that countries were going to want missionaries out of their countries, the Church could have waited to remove them until that time. The risk of contagion in such a mass movement wouldn't be any higher then than it is now. 

The action and reaction with the European Area (essentially the only area not closed down for missionaries by the Church) displays rapidly changing decisions (sometimes multiple times in a day) that show lack of communication and agreement between Salt Lake and the area. When the Church's initial response seemed to be that all missionaries were coming home, later that day, there was a letter from the Area Presidency saying that this doesn't apply to us (for which we were very relieved and grateful). And, the great cost (financial is the least of the costs) of shutting down the missions (including disposition of apartments, offices, and facilities), moving tens of thousands of people home, and ultimately, what it will take to re-open the areas (my parents, who were office couples in two Eastern European missions, shuddered at the sheer weight of that task) all seem to me to be, not according to a master plan, but reaction on limited information in the moment. And, in my opinion, the actual situation doesn't merit that response. 

I realize that to many, anything the Church does is de facto and by default revelation, but I believe a lot of "business" decisions are made without being revealed. To me, this whole thing is an instance of such a thing. 

Edited by rongo
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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I talked to the APs tonite and asked them if they are expecting new missionaries and they had no idea if or when. I would presume so if all the Canadians serving worldwide are coming back at least some would be assigned here, I assume anyways. I would also assume though that being two cooped up with your comp is band enough but then to get a stranger and now have 3 would be sucky ducky

It could also go the other way, too, and be a great experience. I never got to share an apartment with multiple companionships, but it sometimes can be great fun, a great experience, and a fruitful situation for building up the cause of Zion in that area. You're right, though --- if you have really bad personality differences or "deadweight" companions in such a situation, that would be sucky ducky. :) 

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1 minute ago, rongo said:

It could also go the other way, too, and be a great experience. I never got to share an apartment with multiple companionships, but it sometimes can be great fun, a great experience, and a fruitful situation for building up the cause of Zion in that area. You're right, though --- if you have really bad personality differences or "deadweight" companions in such a situation, that would be sucky ducky. :) 

I served 4.5 months in this area and we lived in a house with another companionship and boy oh boy did we raise the roof!!!! but we baptized somehow, somehow we did it-it was a great time on my mission

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1 minute ago, Duncan said:

I served 4.5 months in this area and we lived in a house with another companionship and boy oh boy did we raise the roof!!!! but we baptized somehow, somehow we did it-it was a great time on my mission

For us, it was always "P day Eve" (night before P day, after the work day had ended) sleepovers. We didn't always have "lights out" at 10:30, but we had a lot of fun. It allowed us to get an early start on P day going on an excursion. 

One of my last "executive orders" before going home was a zone activity in Kassel (the crown jewel of our mission). Lots of finding activities (door-to-door, displays, area book work), football in the park, a dinner by the ward, seeing all of the Wilhelmshoehe sites, and 20-30 elders crammed into one apartment for the night. Good memories! :) 

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8 minutes ago, rongo said:

For us, it was always "P day Eve" (night before P day, after the work day had ended) sleepovers. We didn't always have "lights out" at 10:30, but we had a lot of fun. It allowed us to get an early start on P day going on an excursion. 

One of my last "executive orders" before going home was a zone activity in Kassel (the crown jewel of our mission). Lots of finding activities (door-to-door, displays, area book work), football in the park, a dinner by the ward, seeing all of the Wilhelmshoehe sites, and 20-30 elders crammed into one apartment for the night. Good memories! :) 

Awesome, awesome! I remember Christmas '99 it was like a week off basically, the 24th was Saturday, IIRC, we did nothing of course, Church was like an hour and we went home and we had dinners of course, then P-Day on Monday, I don't think we did much on the 23rd, other than visiting. I remember having a meal at a member's place it was pineapple and marshmallow and ham, YUCK!!!! But somehow I gulped it down!!

Edited by Duncan
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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Interesting. I hadn’t known that before. 
 

It’s certainly consistent with the understanding that a young sister missionary does not bear the same obligation as a young elder missionary. 

Except Rongo said this:

Quote

That applies to elders as well. Anyone who returns not for disciplinary reasons is deemed as having honorably served. 

 

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

have said from the beginning that I feel missionaries should have been left in the missions.

You seem to assume they always had that option. 
 

Quote

I realize that to many, anything the Church does is de facto and by default revelation, but I believe a lot of "business" decisions are made without being revealed. To me, this whole thing is an instance of such a thing

I see little reason to criticize when I and you have very little info on the details of what is happening out there for in the real world as opposed to this board, into those making the actual decision have. 

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

You seem to assume they always had a choice. 

The Church? Or the missionaries?

As far as I know, it has always been the Church's choice. I'm not aware of any countries that have asked us missions to close or missionaries to leave. While air travel is severely restricted, it is still possible and conceivably won't be closed off 100% (e.g., Church chartered flights to get missionaries out of the Philippines, Africa, etc.). We've been told by the European Area Presidency that flights are still possible out of Norway; there are just fewer of them. Conditions are just fine there (in fact, our son, whom we talked to today, tells us that most of his ward members think the quarantine/lockdowns are much ado about nothing. They are obeying the government orders; they aren't defying them. But, they don't share the hysteria and panic concern).

The Church could equally have chosen to leave missionaries in place and have them "shelter in place." Which is what they are doing in the U.S.

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20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Except Rongo said this:

 

I saw that. 
 

The difference I noted is that Anijen quoted a General Authority (although an unnamed one). Rongo made an a priori assertion without citing anyone in authority. 
 

Tenuous though it is, Anijen’s statement has more credibility with me than Rongo’s, knowing as I do that the Church has a different expectation for young priesthood holders than it does for young women as pertaining to full time missionary service. 
 

Anijen used as a hypothetical example a sister missionary desiring to return home early to get married and seemed to imply that such a thing would be perfectly fine. I can’t reasonably conceive that such an intent on the part of a young elder would be regarded so leniently. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, rongo said:

The Church? Or the missionaries?

As far as I know, it has always been the Church's choice. I'm not aware of any countries that have asked us missions to close or missionaries to leave. While air travel is severely restricted, it is still possible and conceivably won't be closed off 100% (e.g., Church chartered flights to get missionaries out of the Philippines, Africa, etc.). We've been told by the European Area Presidency that flights are still possible out of Norway; there are just fewer of them. Conditions are just fine there (in fact, our son, whom we talked to today, tells us that most of his ward members think the quarantine/lockdowns are much ado about nothing. They are obeying the government orders; they aren't defying them. But, they don't share the hysteria and panic concern).

The Church could equally have chosen to leave missionaries in place and have them "shelter in place." Which is what they are doing in the U.S.

I think it wise to bring them home. I will trust my leaders and the State Departments advice under these unprecedented circumstances.

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At the same time:

  • I expect that the Church leadership will act according to its leaders own best understanding of how to deal with the emergent situation, with the Lord's concurrence
  • I expect that if the Church leadership chooses to go in a direction that the Lord will not concur with, the Lord will pull them up sharply and give them direct instruction countering their choice and presenting the correct decision

BTW, by concurrence I mean anything from "if you really want to do it that way, fine, but you could have chosen a better course" to "absolutely spot on!"

I've experienced sufficient interaction with the Lord in respect of my own choices in my own life that it becomes clear to me that this is how the Lord operates. There have been a number of things that I have decided to do, not been discouraged or encouraged about it by the Spirit, and then I did them. And sometimes I failed and sometimes I didn't.  Twice I have decided to do something, asked the Lord about it, and got an unequivocal NO.  I have also gotten direct instruction to do something, failed to do it, and paid the consequence. One time I put myself into a situation where there was only one honorable course left to me, asked the Lord if I should do it, got a positive response, did it, and it ultimately turned out to be a net negative experience with consequences that have reverberated to this day. But I had it coming.  I've also been directly guided to a choice, received significant encouragement from the Spirit to follow the path to that choice, and then at the end made the decision the Spirit led me to -- which has blessed me beyond all expectation.

The Lord guides but does not force (unless you're Jonah, I guess). We have been given free agency, and have been instructed to use it. But the wise man or woman will check with the Head Office occasionally about whether the choice is acceptable to the Lord. Sometimes what we choose is acceptable to the Lord, even when the choice is not the best option to take.  

So in the current situation I expect that the Lord is guiding the Brethren, if not out and out directing them.  I trust Him, and by extension, them.

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On 3/28/2020 at 11:02 AM, Rain said:

Yes. The missionary moms group has a number of them posted every day.

Yes, quite a few [mission calls] are [still being extended].  Some as early as April and many in June and July.

I continue to be skeptical about this, Missionary Mom's Facebook page or no. I just got off the phone with my mom (she wanted to know my reaction to Governor Ducey ending the school year statewide). Her brother and his wife had just gotten their calls to the Arkansas Little Rock Mission the night they arrived home from the Czech Republic (March 10, literally the day before all of the Corona madness started). Their call had them reporting in April, but they were just notified that this has been postponed indefinitely. Ditto for a couple that was to go to London. Granted, these are senior couples, and one of them is Europe to boot, but look at our missions. The Tempe and Gilbert missions are all shut down. We have to deliver the food in expendable containers to their doorstep and have no contact with them. How would new missionaries in any mission be picked up, taken to the mission home, oriented, assigned to a companion, and sent to their first area under conditions like this?

I suspect that announced calls on Missionary Moms have been updated and pushed out indefinitely. 

We did just get a letter from the Norway Mission president saying that nothing has changed, and they are still waiting hopefully for the prime minister's April 13 date of easing of restrictions. While I'm not optimistic about that, I hope they get to stay for when things do lighten up. If they came home, they probably would not be reassigned, and if they were, they would just be quarantined in their apartment, wherever they are (which is what they're doing right now, anyway, where they're at). 

My niece in Louisiana and her companion were just put in an apartment with four other girls to wait out the restrictions. Yikes! 

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

I continue to be skeptical about this, Missionary Mom's Facebook page or no. I just got off the phone with my mom (she wanted to know my reaction to Governor Ducey ending the school year statewide). Her brother and his wife had just gotten their calls to the Arkansas Little Rock Mission the night they arrived home from the Czech Republic (March 10, literally the day before all of the Corona madness started). Their call had them reporting in April, but they were just notified that this has been postponed indefinitely. Ditto for a couple that was to go to London. Granted, these are senior couples, and one of them is Europe to boot, but look at our missions. The Tempe and Gilbert missions are all shut down. We have to deliver the food in expendable containers to their doorstep and have no contact with them. How would new missionaries in any mission be picked up, taken to the mission home, oriented, assigned to a companion, and sent to their first area under conditions like this?

I suspect that announced calls on Missionary Moms have been updated and pushed out indefinitely. 

Sort of yes.  Most have received word of no change yet, but do expect it. 

1 hour ago, rongo said:

We did just get a letter from the Norway Mission president saying that nothing has changed, and they are still waiting hopefully for the prime minister's April 13 date of easing of restrictions. While I'm not optimistic about that, I hope they get to stay for when things do lighten up. If they came home, they probably would not be reassigned, and if they were, they would just be quarantined in their apartment, wherever they are (which is what they're doing right now, anyway, where they're at). 

My niece in Louisiana and her companion were just put in an apartment with four other girls to wait out the restrictions. Yikes! 

On my phone it is harder to search through.  I'm on my computer now so I will list what I can find quickly:

Got call March 24. Philippines. Reporting July 15

  • March 22  Brazil July 15
  • March 17? Milan, Italy, August
  • march 18  Houston may 18
  • This may be the one I was thinking of.  Reporting April 15 to Hawaii.  It is in a thread about getting calls currently, but she doesn't mention when the call was received so it may have been quite a bit earlier than most who were reporting about calls. 
  • Many received on March 17th for South America leaving on June 23rd and July 14 and a few other June/July dates

I know a lot of calls come on Tuesdays.  I don't know if they are all email yet?  So I'm not sure why some came as late as March 22.  With tomorrow being the next Tuesday after the last batch then we will see what happens. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rain said:

Sort of yes.  Most have received word of no change yet, but do expect it. 

On my phone it is harder to search through.  I'm on my computer now so I will list what I can find quickly:

Got call March 24. Philippines. Reporting July 15

  • March 22  Brazil July 15
  • March 17? Milan, Italy, August
  • march 18  Houston may 18
  • This may be the one I was thinking of.  Reporting April 15 to Hawaii.  It is in a thread about getting calls currently, but she doesn't mention when the call was received so it may have been quite a bit earlier than most who were reporting about calls. 
  • Many received on March 17th for South America leaving on June 23rd and July 14 and a few other June/July dates

I know a lot of calls come on Tuesdays.  I don't know if they are all email yet?  So I'm not sure why some came as late as March 22.  With tomorrow being the next Tuesday after the last batch then we will see what happens. 

Thanks! 

Yeah, March 22 for Brazil ain't happening. Missions are closed.

March 17 for Milan, Italy --- double no.

Houston March 18? I'd be really interested to see what came of that person's home MTC experience, given what I've heard from people I know (i.e., this thread). I don't think they're flying anyone to any missions right now.

April 15 to Hawaii --- Hawaii has a stringent stay-at-home order in place, and a mandatory 14 day quarantine for all incoming flights, domestic or international. 

Plethora of South America calls for June and beyond --- I think these are all being pushed to the Fall, if not indefinitely postponed. All the missions are closed right now. 

When they do re-open missions, I wonder if some will remain closed and we won't have as many as pre-Corona (my parents' suspicion). The logistics of re-establishing missions from 0 to up to 150+ missionaries will be interesting. 10-20 per transfer? 100 all at once? It won't be like splitting off to form a new mission, where there are missionaries already there. Plus, all of the apartments will have been vacated, and will need to be rented anew (unless the Church is continuing to pay on them indefinitely). I also wonder if there will be new visa delays once countries are truly "back to normal." 

Interesting times, to be sure. 

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32 minutes ago, rongo said:

Thanks! 

Yeah, March 22 for Brazil ain't happening. Missions are closed.

March 17 for Milan, Italy --- double no.

Houston March 18? I'd be really interested to see what came of that person's home MTC experience, given what I've heard from people I know (i.e., this thread). I don't think they're flying anyone to any missions right now.

April 15 to Hawaii --- Hawaii has a stringent stay-at-home order in place, and a mandatory 14 day quarantine for all incoming flights, domestic or international. 

Plethora of South America calls for June and beyond --- I think these are all being pushed to the Fall, if not indefinitely postponed. All the missions are closed right now. 

When they do re-open missions, I wonder if some will remain closed and we won't have as many as pre-Corona (my parents' suspicion). The logistics of re-establishing missions from 0 to up to 150+ missionaries will be interesting. 10-20 per transfer? 100 all at once? It won't be like splitting off to form a new mission, where there are missionaries already there. Plus, all of the apartments will have been vacated, and will need to be rented anew (unless the Church is continuing to pay on them indefinitely). I also wonder if there will be new visa delays once countries are truly "back to normal." 

Interesting times, to be sure. 

Just to be clear, the first date was the day they received the call, not the date they are going.  

The MP of my son's mission received 21 missionaries on March 25th (email from the MP).  I asked my son a couple of hours ago about more coming in.  He understands that more should be coming in next week, but he isn't in the office and isn't feeling well so he may not have understood clearly.   Ten, new from the MTC, arrived in an Alabama mission on the 27th. So as of Friday there was still some traveling by plane.   

There is a reassigned thread and so far no one posting has received word yet where they will be reassigned, but someone did post this:

Quote

My friend who works at the missionary department says they're still trying to get people home, and haven't been able to even think about how to reassign thousands during a time of quarantine/community spread.

I suspected this.

The Hong Kong missionaries who were reassigned happened before things got really wild.  

Edited by Rain
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Second missionary diagnosed with covid. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/3/30/21199779/missionary-mormon-church-tests-positive-coronavirus-covid19-lds

“As the COVID-19 pandemic progresses throughout the world, we recognize that additional missionaries will unfortunately contract the virus,” church spokesman Daniel Woodruff said in an email sent to media.

"“As we move forward, the church will not provide public details about each individual case of COVID-19, but instead will rely on public health agencies and individuals to make the required notifications,” he said. “We continue to pray for all people affected by this pandemic, and we plead with the Lord to provide relief and peace at this uncertain time.”

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Funny thing.  Six days ago one of the missionary moms asked if there was anyone serving in the mission where my nephew is.  I connected her with my sister-in-law.  She was reassigned (but still in the MTC) from Taiwan to this mission.  Now they are both serving in the same ward. 😀  

Edited by Rain
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On 3/26/2020 at 4:57 PM, rongo said:

Two data points (anecdotal) concerning most foreign missionaries coming home. The Church had put out a flowchart for missionaries and the changed lengths and terms of service:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/coronavirus-update?fbclid=IwAR26-WG_qosqOU97pMulhyat5e-B0MdStz7qfYKFOX6HdWol1rG7NS_vO58#missionary-work

My sister-in-law is a primary president in the Daybreak area (Oquirrh Mountain Temple). My wife's family has all flooded us with calls wanting to know if our son was home, and they were surprised to hear that European missionaries aren't being sent home (which could conceivably change, of course). The flood of Philippines and African missionaries (the infamous flood at the Salt Lake Airport) hit, and my wife's sister said that they had several who returned home with around six months of service who are not being reassigned post-quarantine. I asked if they have health conditions, and she said, no, and they are devastated. That isn't what the above guidelines say (and we may not have the full story, but she knows at least some of them through her ward and she doesn't think that they fit the "release and thank them for their service" group).

More concerning to me is a girl from our former ward. She was in the very last actual MTC group set to go to the field March 30. She graduated with my son, and I was her bishop. She was called to Nebraska Omaha, and I just checked with her mom to see if she was in-field yet (I had heard they were sending them early to get that group out of there. I wanted to write her a letter and wanted her apartment mailing address). I was stunned to hear that she is home and has been released. They called their district in to meet with a therapist/counselor of some sort. They were told that they can choose to go home and be released, or choose to go to their field of assignment, but if they choose that, they are probably going to be sent home soon, anyway. They were strongly encouraged to choose release, though. They were told to pray about it. She prayed, expecting to receive an answer to go to her assigned field, and was surprised that she felt she should go home. Her companion (from Texas) also felt like she should go home. Her mother said she has been an emotional wreck since returning and being released on Tuesday, and is second-guessing her choice. I trust her and her mother, and believe that this is their understanding of what they were told, and I don't think they misunderstood or misinterpreted anything. I trust their recollection of the facts.  

I know that placing the swarms of foreign missionaries was always going to be a logistical nightmare, and some things had already been announced that would help, but not solve, the problem (e.g., early releases, etc.). But this really seems like some missionaries are being shafted and not even offered the stateside reassignments they were told would be available to them. Missions being extremely important for development to me, I feel heartbroken for the untold missionaries who are being shortchanged with this Corona debacle. All-around sad! :( 

The talk "Called to the Work" by Elder Bednar in 2017 is being recommended by several in the mom's group now.  It is really helping many of their missionary children.  It may be one you want to share with her.

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2 hours ago, Rain said:

The talk "Called to the Work" by Elder Bednar in 2017 is being recommended by several in the mom's group now.  It is really helping many of their missionary children.  It may be one you want to share with her.

He makes a good point that one is called to serve, not to a place. The reality for many who simply drew the short straw here (those who got their calls in February/March, or who have only been in the field for a couple of months, is that many of them probably won't be able to serve at all, anywhere. I know --- they can still serve in the temple or through Just Serve or something, but for these kids who just were very unlucky in where the roulette wheel stopped for them, most of them won't get anything close to a mission. Based on yesterday's current guidelines, they can choose to be released and take their chances with a reassignment whenever that happens (with original end date), or they can try again in a year or a year and a half. 

Many aren't going to be able to put life on hold for that long. Some could do a year of school and then go (since most boys go at 18), but the year and a half wait would be a little wonky. 

We feel very blessed and lucky, to be honest. Worst case, our son had a good nine month mission. He did his freshman year of college and went at 19, so he would probably need to move on with his life if they do end up closing European missions. He has a full-ride scholarship, and we're not sure how indefinitely that can be deferred.  

ETA: Also, I'm not sure how comforting his "called to serve, not to a place" would be for her. She only had a week and a half in the MTC and was strongly encouraged to choose to be released and go home over choosing to go to Nebraska and "shelter in place" (oh, how I hate that phrase) with the likelihood of being sent home soon, anyway (the whole district was told that). So, this wasn't even a reassignment or going home for mental/physical health reasons, which is what Elder Bednar was addressing. She's not serving in a missionary capacity in any form now, after only a week and a half of MTC.  

Edited by rongo
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