Church's Increasing Candor Re: Its History - Saints, Vol. 2

[smac97]

From the Deseret News:

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY — Less than one year after Latter-day Saints worked together to heroically rescue stranded and starving handcart pioneers on the Wyoming plains, tensions in southern Utah erupted in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, one of the worst disasters in the state’s history.

Details about both events are included in “Saints: The Story of The Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days Volume 2, No Unhallowed Hand, 1846-1893,” the second in an official multivolume history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints written in an easy-to-follow, narrative style.

Hmm.  That first paragraph is pretty bracing.

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This new volume doesn’t shy away from controversial issues like the Mountain Meadows Massacre or plural marriage, said Elder LeGrand R. Curtis Jr., a General Authority Seventy serving as church historian and recorder.

“It’s a very difficult period of our history,” Elder Curtis said. “But that’s a story we have to tell. It needs to be told as part of our story.”

I think that's true.  Times, they are a changin'...

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The new 833-page volume features true and carefully researched accounts of the pioneers’ journey to the Salt Lake Valley, missionary work to many nations, plural marriage, Utah’s struggle for statehood, the feats of Latter-day Saint women, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, American Indian relations and the building of temples, including the 40-year construction of the Salt Lake Temple and more.

Volume 2 goes on sale Wednesday and is available free online at history.churchofjesuschrist.org/saints and through the Gospel Library App in 14 languages.

Very cool.  

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Elder Curtis outlined three noteworthy points about Volume 2. First, readers will get the full story of the pioneers crossing the plains, already a rich part of the Latter-day Saint heritage.

“Unfortunately there’s death and hardship, but also the triumph of people banding together,” Elder Curtis said. “I cherish the fact that for church leaders it was important to not leave the poor behind.”

Second, it was important to address the controversial topics. In a digital age where people consume so much information, controversies like the Mountain Meadows Massacre must be addressed, said Jed L. Woodworth, the project’s managing historian and a general editor.

“We have books on this topic written by church historians but the church has never published anything this thorough until this volume,” Woodworth said. “The reception to Volume 1 where we dealt with a number of controversies has been quite positive. That presents a template for us going forward.”

Finally, the volume ends on a “triumphant” note with the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, which may or may not be a spoiler, Elder Curtis said.

“Forty years being built by a people who are having their assets taken by the federal government and who have limited resources to begin with, yet, with great determination, this magnificent building was built, complete with heavenly manifestations and a powerful spirit. I think it’s a moment of great triumph,” Elder Curtis said. “That’s a little bit of a spoiler.”

I think our ancestors' virtues and accomplishments merit just as much attention as their mistakes and flaws.  More, in fact.

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The goal of the “Saints” team was to produce a historically-accurate and compelling narrative, said Scott A. Hales, another general editor, who was responsible for making sure the book maintained its literary structure. Hales is confident that Volume 2 will be a “page-turner” that brings church history to life for readers.

“The last thing we want is for this book to be a doorstop,” Hales said. “We want people to be reading and talking about this book. We want them to be flying through the pages and rereading it all they can.”

One of the important themes in the new volume is the emphasis on the contributions of women, according to Lisa Olsen Tait, a general editor.

The book follows the lives of Latter-day Saints such as Jane Manning Janes, Emmeline Wells, Louisa Pratt and Susie Young Gates, a daughter of Brigham Young and many more, Tait said.

“We have some great individual women characters that show either larger developments of women’s history and institutions or just the experience of the history on a more personal level from a woman’s perspective,” Tait said.

I am very glad to hear about this emphasis.  Our history has not given sufficient attention to it in the past.

The whole article is worth a read.

I'm happy to see this.  We need to educate about and contextualize our history.  We need to innoculate, rather than insulate.  We'll end up with a healthier understanding and appreciation of what our ancestors accomplished.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

One of the sources they used that I would LOVE to read is the Salt Lake Temple Dedicatory Services,1893, the official transcript. I've seen it quoted here and there but how do people get access to that? 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

One of the sources they used that I would LOVE to read is the Salt Lake Temple Dedicatory Services,1893, the official transcript. I've seen it quoted here and there but how do people get access to that? 

This?

Quote

Dedicatory Prayer

Salt Lake Temple, 6 April 1893

 

Our Father in heaven, Thou has created the heavens and the earth, and all things that are therein; Thou most glorious One, perfect in mercy, love, and truth, we, Thy children, come this day before Thee, and in this house which we have built to Thy most holy name, humbly plead the atoning blood of Thine Only Begotten Son, that our sins may be remembered no more against us forever, but that our prayers may ascend unto Thee and have free access to Thy throne, that we may be heard in Thy holy habitation. And may it graciously please Thee to hearken unto our petitions, answer them according to Thine infinite wisdom and love, and grant that the blessings which we seek may be bestowed upon us, even a hundred fold, inasmuch as we seek with purity of heart and fullness of purpose to do Thy will and glorify Thy name.

We thank Thee, O Thou Great Eloheim, that Thou didst raise up Thy servant, Joseph Smith through the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and made him a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and through the assistance and administrations of angels from heaven, Thou didst enable him to bring forth the Book of Mormon, the stick of Joseph, in the hand of Ephraim, in fulfillment of the prophecies of Isaiah and other prophets, which record has been translated and published in many languages. We also thank Thee, our Father in heaven, that Thou didst inspire Thy servant and give him power on the earth to organize Thy Church in this goodly land, in all its fullness, power and glory, with Apostles, Prophets, Pastors and Teachers, with all the gifts and graces belonging thereto, and all this by the power of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood, which Thou didst bestow upon him by the administration of holy angels, who held that Priesthood in the days of the Savior. We thank Thee, our God, that Thou didst enable Thy servant Joseph to build two temples, in which ordinances were administered for the living and the dead; that he also lived to send the gospel to the nations of the earth and to the islands of the sea, and labored exceedingly until he was martyred for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We also thank Thee, O our Father in heaven, that Thou didst raise up Thy servant Brigham Young, who held the keys of the Priesthood on the earth for many years, and who led Thy people to these valleys of the mountains, and laid the corner-stone of this great Temple and dedicated it unto Thee; and who did direct the building of three other temples in these Rocky Mountains which have been dedicated unto Thy holy name, in which temples many thousands of the living have been blessed and the dead redeemed.

Our Father in heaven, we are also thankful to Thee for Thy servant John Taylor, who followed in the footsteps of Thy servant Brigham, until he laid down his life in exile.

Thou hast called Thy servants Wilford Woodruff, George Q. Cannon, and Joseph F. Smith to hold the keys of the Presidency and priesthood this day, and for these shepherds of Thy flock we feel to give Thee thanksgiving and praise. Thy servant Wilford is bound to acknowledge Thy hand, O Father, in the preservation of his life from the hour of his birth to the present day. Nothing but Thy power could have preserved him through that which he has passed during the eighty-six years that Thou hast granted him life on the earth.

For the raising up of the Twelve Apostles, we also thank Thee, our God, and for the perfect union which exists among us.

We thank Thee, O Lord, for the perfect organizations of Thy Church as they exist at the present time.

O Lord, we regard with intense and indescribable feelings the completion of this sacred house. Deign to accept this the fourth temple which Thy covenant children have been assisted by Thee in erecting in these mountains. In past ages Thou didst inspire with Thy Holy Spirit Thy servants, the prophets, to speak of the time in the latter days when the mountain of the Lord's house should be established in the tops of the mountains, and should be exalted above the hills. We thank Thee that we have had the glorious opportunity of contributing to the fulfillment of these visions of Thine ancient seers, and that Thou hast condescended to permit us to take part in the great work. And as this portion of Thy servants' words has thus so marvelously been brought to pass, we pray Thee, with increased faith and renewed hope, that all their words with regard to Thy great work in gathering Thine Israel and building up Thy kingdom on earth in the last days may be as amply fulfilled, and that, O Lord, speedily.

We come before Thee with joy and thanksgiving, with spirits jubilant and hearts filled with praise, that Thou hast permitted us to see this day for which, during these forty years, we have hoped, and toiled, and prayed, when we can dedicate unto Thee this house which we have built to Thy most glorious name. One year ago we set the capstone with shouts of Hosanna to God and the Lamb. And today we dedicate the whole unto Thee, with all that pertains unto it that it may be holy in Thy sight; that it may be a house of prayer, a house of praise and of worship; that Thy glory may rest upon it; that Thy holy presence may be continually in it; that it may be the abode of Thy Well-Beloved Son, our Savior; that the angels who stand before Thy face may be the hallowed messengers who shall visit it, bearing to us Thy wishes and Thy will, that it may be sanctified and consecrated in all its parts holy unto Thee, the God of Israel, the Almighty Ruler of Mankind. And we pray Thee that all people who may enter upon the threshold of this, Thine house, may feel Thy power and be constrained to acknowledge that Thou hast sanctified it, that it is Thy house, a place of Thy holiness.

We pray Thee, Heavenly Father, to accept this building in all its parts from foundation to capstone, with the statue that is on the latter placed, and all the finals and other ornaments that adorn its exterior. We pray Thee to bless, that they decay not, all the walls, partitions, floors, ceilings, roofs and bridging, the elevators, stairways, railings and steps, the frames, doors, windows, and other openings, all things connected with the lighting, heating, and sanitary apparatus, the boilers, engines, and dynamos, the connecting pipes and wires, the lamps and burners, and all utensils, furniture and articles used in or connected with the holy ordinances administered in this house, the veils and the altars, the baptismal font and the oxen on which it rests, and all that pertains thereto, the baths, washstands and basins. Also the safes and vaults in which the records are preserved, with the records themselves, and all books, documents, and papers appertaining to the office of the recorder, likewise the library with all the books, maps, instruments, etc., that may belong thereto. We also present before Thee, for Thine acceptance, all the additions and buildings not forming a part of the main edifice, but being appendages thereto; and we pray Thee to bless all the furniture, seats, cushions, curtains, hangings, locks, and fastenings, and multitudinous other appliances and appurtenances found in and belonging to this Temple and its annexes with all the work or ornamentation thereon, the painting and plastering, the gilding and bronzing, the fine work in wood and metal of every kind, the embroidery and needlework, the pictures and statuary, the carved work and canopies. Also the materials of which the buildings and their contents are made or composed—the rock, lime, mortar and plaster, the timbers and lath, the wood of various trees, the gold and silver, the brass and iron, and all other metals, the silk, wool, and cotton, the skins and furs, the glass, china, and precious stones, all these and all else herein we humbly present for Thine acceptance and sanctifying blessing.

Our Father in heaven, we present before Thee the altars which we have prepared for Thy servants and handmaidens to receive their sealing blessings. We dedicate them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, unto Thy most holy name, and we ask Thee to sanctify these altars, that those who come unto them may feel the power of the Holy Ghost resting upon them, and realize the sacredness of the covenants they enter into. And we pray that our covenants and contracts which we make with Thee and with each other may be directed by Thy holy Spirit, be sacredly kept by us, and accepted by Thee, and that all the blessings pronounced may be realized by all Thy Saints who come to these altars, in the morning of the resurrection of the just.

O Lord, we pray Thee to bless and sanctify the whole of this block or piece of ground on which these buildings stand, with the surrounding walls and fences, the walks, paths and ornamental beds, also the trees, plants, flowers and shrubbery that grow in its soil; may they bloom and blossom and become exceedingly beautiful and fragrant; and may Thy Spirit dwell in the midst thereof, that this plot of ground may be a place of rest and peace, for holy meditation and inspired thought.

Preserve these buildings, we beseech Thee, from injury or destruction by flood or fire; from the rage of the elements, the shafts of the vivid lightning, the overwhelming blasts of the hurricane, the flames of consuming fire, and the upheavals of the earth-quake, O Lord, protect them.

Bless, we pray Thee, Heavenly Father, all who may be workers in this house. Remember continually Thy servant who shall be appointed to preside within its walls; endow him richly with wisdom of the Holy Ones, with the spirit of his calling, with the power of his Priesthood, and with the gift of discernment. Bless, according to their calling, his assistants and all who are associated with him in the performance of the ordinances—baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, sealings, endowments, and ordinations which are performed herein, that all that is done may be holy and acceptable unto Thee, Thou God of our salvation. Bless the recorders and copyists, that the records of the Temple may be kept perfect, and without omission and errors, and that they may also be accepted of Thee. Bless, in their several positions, the engineers, watchmen, guards, and all others who have duties to perform in connection with the house, that they may perform them unto Thee with an eye single to Thy glory.

Remember also in Thy mercy all those who have labored in the erection of this house, or who have, in any way, by their means or influence aided in its completion; may they in no wise lose their reward.

O Thou God of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whose God Thou delightest to be called, we thank Thee with all the fervor of overflowing gratitude that Thou hast revealed the powers by which the hearts of the children are being turned to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children, that the sons of men, in all their generations can be made partakers of the glories and joys of the kingdom of heaven. Confirm upon us the spirit of Elijah, we pray Thee, that we may thus redeem our dead and also connect ourselves with our fathers who have passed behind the veil, and furthermore seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection, that we who dwell on the earth may be bound to those who dwell in heaven. We thank Thee for their sake who have finished their work in mortality, as well as for our own, that the prison doors have been opened, that deliverance has been proclaimed to the captive, and the bonds have been loosened from those who were bound. We praise Thee that our fathers, from last to first, from now, back to the beginning, can be united with us in indissoluble links, welded by the Holy Priesthood, and that as one great family united in Thee and cemented by Thy power we shall together stand before Thee, and by the power of the atoning blood of Thy Son be delivered from all evil, be saved and sanctified, exalted and glorified. Wilt Thou also permit holy messengers to visit us within these sacred walls and make known unto us with regard to the work we should perform in behalf of our dead. And, as Thou has inclined the hearts of many who have not yet entered into covenant with Thee to search out their progenitors, and in so doing they have traced the ancestry of many of Thy Saints, we pray Thee that Thou wilt increase this desire in their bosoms, that they may in this way aid in the accomplishment of Thy work. Bless them, we pray Thee, in their labors, that they may not fall into errors in preparing their genealogies; and furthermore, we ask Thee to open before them new avenues of information, and place in their hands the records of the past, that their work may not only be correct but complete also.

O Thou Great Father of the spirits of all flesh, graciously bless and fully qualify those upon whom Thou hast placed a portion of Thine authority, and who bear the responsibilities and powers of the priesthood which is after the order of Thy Son. Bless them all from first to last from Thy servant who represents Thee in all the world to the latest who has been ordained to the Deacon's office. Upon each and all confer the spirit of their calling, with a comprehension of its duties and a loving zeal to fulfill them. Endow them with faith, patience and understanding. May their lives be strong in virtue and adorned with humility; may their ministrations be effectual, their prayers be availing and their teachings the path of salvation. May they be united by the Spirit and power of God in all their labors, and in every thought, word and act, may they glorify Thy name and vindicate the wisdom that has made them kings and priests unto Thee.

For Thy servants of the First Presidency of the Church we first of all pray. Reveal, in great clearness, Thy mind and will unto them in all things essential for the welfare of Thy people; give them heavenly wisdom, abounding faith, and the power and gifts necessary to enable them to preside acceptably unto Thee over the officers and members of Thy Church. Remember in love Thy servant whom Thou hast called to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to all mankind, whose days have been many upon the earth; yet lengthen out his span of mortal life, we pray Thee, and grant unto him all the powers and gifts, in their completeness, of the office Thou hast conferred upon him; and in like manner bless his associates in the Presidency of Thy Church.

Confer upon Thy servants, the Twelve Apostles, a rich endowment of Thy Spirit. Under their guidance may the gospel of the kingdom go forth into all the world, to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that the honest in heart in every land may hear the glad tidings of joy and salvation. Overrule, we pray Thee, in the midst of the governments of the earth, that the barriers that now stand in the way of the spread of Thy truths may be removed, and liberty of conscience be accorded to all peoples.

Remember in loving kindness Thy servants, the Patriarchs. May they be full of blessings for Thy people Israel. May they bear with them the seeds of comfort and consolation, of encouragement and blessing. Fill them with the Holy Spirit of promise, and be graciously pleased to fulfill their words of prophecy, that Thy name may be extolled by the people of Thy Church and their faith in Thee and in the promises of Thy ministering servants be increasingly strengthened.

With Thy servants of the Twelve, bless their associates, the Seventies; may they be powerful in the preaching of Thy word and in bearing it to the four quarters of the earth. May an ever-widening way be opened before them until they shall have raised the gospel standard in every land and proclaimed its saving truths in every tongue, that all the islands and the continents may rejoice in the testimony of the great work Thou art in these later days performing on the earth.

Bless abundantly, O Lord, the High Priests in all the varied duties and positions to which Thou hast called them. As standing ministers of Thy word in the multiplying Stakes of Zion wilt Thou endow them richly with the spirit of their exalted callings. As Presidents, Counselors, Bishops, members of High Councils, and in every other office which their Priesthood gives them the right to fill may they be righteous ministers of Thy holy law, loving fathers of the people, and as judges in the midst of the Saints may they deal out just and impartial judgment tempered with mercy and love.

So also, in their various callings, confer precious gifts of wisdom, faith and knowledge upon Thy servants, the Elders, Priests, Teachers, and Deacons, that all may diligently perform their parts in the glorious labors Thou hast called Thy Priesthood to bear.

Forget not, we beseech Thee, Thy servants the missionaries, who are proclaiming the saving truths that Thou hast revealed for man's redemption to the millions who are now overshadowed by deep spiritual darkness. Preserve them from all evil, deliver them from mob violence, may they want no good thing, but be greatly blessed with the gifts and powers of their ministry. Remember also their families, that they may be sustained and comforted by Thee and be cherished and cared for by Thy Saints.

We pray Thee for the members of Thy Holy Church throughout all the world, that Thy people may be so guided and governed of Thee, that all who profess to be and call themselves Saints may be preserved in the unity of the faith, in the way of truth, in the bonds of peace, and in holiness of life. Strengthen the weak, we pray Thee, and impart Thy Spirit unto all.

Our Father, may peace abide in all the homes of Thy Saints; may holy angels guard them; may they be encompassed by Thine arms of love; may prosperity shine upon them, and may the tempter and the destroyer be removed far from them. May the days of Thy covenant people be lengthened out in righteousness, and sickness and disease be rebuked from their midst. May the land they inhabit be made fruitful by Thy grace, may its waters be increased and the climate be tempered to the comfort and need of Thy people; may drought, devastating storms, cyclones, and hurricanes be kept afar off, and earthquakes never disturb the land which Thou hast given us. May locusts, caterpillars and other insects not destroy our garden and desolate our fields; but may we be a people blessed of Thee in our bodies and spirits, in our homes and habitations, in our flocks and herds, in ourselves and our posterity, and in all that Thou hast made us stewards over.

Now we pray for the youth of Zion—the children of Thy people; endow them richly with the spirit of faith and righteousness and with increasing love for Thee and for Thy law. Prosper all the institutions that Thou hast established in our midst for their well-being. Give to our Church Schools an ever-increasing power for good. May the Holy Spirit dominate the teachings given therein and also control the hearts and illumine the minds of the students. Bless marvelously Thy servants, the General Superintendent, and all the principals, teachers and other officers, and also those from the General Board of Education of Thy Church. Remember, likewise in Thy loving kindness the Sunday Schools, with all who, either as teachers or scholars, belong thereto; may the influence of the instruction given therein broaden and deepen, to Thy glory and the salvation of Thy children, until the perfect day. Bless the members of the General Board of the Deseret Sunday School Union with the wisdom necessary for the proper fulfillment of their duties, and for the accomplishment of the purposes for which this board was created.

We also uphold before Thee the Young Men's and Young Ladies' Mutual Improvement Associations, with all their officers, general and local, and the members. May they be prospered of Thee, their membership be enlarged, and the good that they accomplish increase with every succeeding year. For the Primaries and Religion Classes we also seek Thy constant blessing and guiding care; may the spirit of instruction be poured out upon the presidents and associate officers and the teachers. May they keep peace with the rest of the educational establishments in Thy Church; so that from their earliest years our children may be diligently brought up in the ways of the Lord, and Thy name be magnified in their growth in virtue and intelligence.

Nor would we forget, O Lord, the normal training classes among Thy people, whether these classes be connected with the Church Schools, the Improvement Associations, or the Sunday Schools. Grant that these classes may be the means of spreading true education throughout all the borders of the Saints by the creation of a body of teachers who will not only be possessed of rare intelligence but be filled also with the spirit of the gospel and be powerful in the testimony of Thy truth and in implanting a love for Thee and Thy works in the hearts of all whom they instruct.

We would hold up before Thee, O Lord, the Relief Societies, with all their members; and all those who preside in their midst according to their callings and appointments, general or local. Bless the Teachers in their labors of mercy and charity, who, as ministering angels, visit the homes of the sick and the needy, bearing succor, consolation and comfort to the unfortunate and sorrowful. And bless, we beseech Thee, most merciful Father, the poor of Thy people, that the cry of want and suffering may not ascend unto Thee from the midst of Thy Saints whom Thou hast blessed so abundantly with the comforts of this world. Open up new avenues by which the needy can obtain a livelihood by honest industry, and also incline the hearts of those blessed more abundantly, to give generously of their substance in this respect, less favored brethren and sisters, that Thou mayest not have reason to chide us for the neglect of even the least among Thy covenant children.

O God of Israel, turn Thy face, we pray Thee, in loving kindness toward Thy stricken people of the House of Judah. Oh, deliver them from those that oppress them. Heal up their wounds, comfort their hearts, strengthen their feet, and give them ministers after Thine own heart who shall lead them as of old, in Thy way. May the days of their tribulation soon cease, and they be planted by Thee in the valleys and plains of their ancient home; and may Jerusalem rejoice and Judea be glad for the multitude of her sons and daughters, for the sweet voices of children in her streets, and the rich outpouring of Thy saving mercies upon them. May Israel no more bow the head, or bend the neck to the oppressor, but may his feet be made strong on the everlasting hills, never more, by violence, to be banished therefrom, and the praise and the glory shall be Thine.

Remember in like pity the dwindling remnants of the House of Israel, descendants of Thy servant Lehi. Restore them we pray Thee, to Thine ancient favor, fulfill in their completeness the promises given to their fathers, and make of them a white and delightsome race, a loved and holy people as in former days. May the time also be nigh at hand when Thou wilt gather the dispersed of Israel from the islands of the sea and from every land in which Thou hast scattered them, and the ten tribes of Jacob from their hiding place in the north, and restore them to communion and fellowship with their kinsmen of the seed of Abraham.

We thank Thee, O God of Israel, that Thou didst raise up patriotic men to lay the foundation of this great American government. Thou didst inspire them to frame a good constitution and laws which guarantee to all of the inhabitants of the land equal rights and privileges to worship Thee according to the dictates of their own consciences. Bless the officers, both judicial and executive. Confer abundant favors upon the President, his Cabinet, and Congress. Enlightened and guided by Thy Spirit may they maintain and uphold the glorious principles of human liberty. Our hearts are filled with gratitude to Thee, our Father in heaven, for Thy kindness unto us in softening the hearts of our fellow citizens, the people of this nation, toward us. That which Thou hast done has been marvelous in our eyes. We thank Thee that Thou didst move upon the heart of the President of our nation to issue a general amnesty. Thou hast removed prejudice and misunderstanding from the minds of many of the people concerning us and our purposes, and they are disposed to treat us as fellow citizens, and not as enemies. In this holy house we feel to give Thee glory therefore, and we humbly ask Thee to increase this feeling in their hearts. Enable them to see us in our true light. Show unto them that we are their friends, that we love liberty, that we will join with them in upholding the rights of the people, the Constitution and laws of our country; and give unto us and our children an increased disposition to always be loyal, and to do everything in our power to maintain Constitutional rights and the freedom of all within the confines of this great Republic.

Remember in mercy, O Lord, the kings, the princes, the nobles the rulers, and governors and the great ones of the earth, and likewise all the poor, the afflicted and the oppressed, and indeed, all people, that their hearts may be softened when Thy servants go forth to bear testimony of Thy name, that their prejudices may give way before the truth, and Thy people find favor in their eyes. So control the affairs of the nations of the earth, that the way be prepared for the ushering in of a reign of righteousness and truth. We desire to see liberty spread throughout the earth, to see oppression cease, the yoke of the tyrant broken, and every despotic form of government overthrown by which Thy children are degraded and crushed, and prevented from enjoying their share of the blessings of the earth, which Thou hast created for their habitation.

O God, the Eternal Father, Thou knowest all things. Thou seest the course Thy people have been led to take in political matters. They have, in many instances, joined the two great national parties. Campaigns have been entered upon, elections have been held, and much party feeling has been engendered. Many things have been said and done which have wounded the feelings of the humble and the meek, and which have been a cause of offense. We beseech Thee, in Thine infinite mercy and goodness, to forgive Thy people wherein they have sinned in this direction. Show them, O Father, their faults and their errors, that they may see the same in the light of Thy Holy Spirit, and repent truly and sincerely, and cultivate that spirit of affection and love which Thou art desirous that all the children of men should entertain one for another, and which Thy Saints, above all others, should cherish. Enable Thy people hereafter to avoid bitterness and strife, and to refrain from words and acts in political discussions that shall create feeling and grieve Thy Holy Spirit.

Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries. Or when the children of Thy people, in years to come, shall be separated, through any cause, from this place, and their hearts shall turn in remembrance of Thy promises to this holy Temple, and they shall cry unto Thee from the depths of their affliction and sorrow to extend relief and deliverance to them, we humbly entreat Thee to Turn Thine ear in mercy to them; hearken to their cries, and grant unto them the blessings for which they ask.

Almighty Father, increase within us the powers of that faith delivered to and possessed by Thy Saints. Strengthen us by the memories of the glorious deliverances of the past, by the remembrance of the sacred covenants that Thou hast made with us, so that, when evil overshadows us, when trouble encompasses us, when we pass through the valley of humiliation, we may not falter, may not doubt, but in the strength of Thy Holy name may accomplish all Thy righteous purposes with regard to us, fill the measure of our creation, and triumph gloriously, by Thy grace, over every besetting sin, be redeemed from every evil, and be numbered in the kingdom of heaven amongst those who shall dwell in Thy presence forever.

And now, our Father, we bless Thee, we praise Thee, we glorify Thee, we worship Thee, day by day we magnify Thee, and give Thee thanks for Thy great goodness towards us, Thy children, and we pray Thee, in the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ, our Savior, to hear these our humble petitions, and answer us from heaven, Thy holy dwelling place, where Thou sittest enthroned in glory, might, majesty, and dominion, and with an infinitude of power which we, Thy mortal creatures, cannot imagine, much less comprehend. Amen and Amen.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

A friend who is a scholar on the topic has stated the coverage of the Priesthood ban is decent, but I have no additional details on that.  

With that and the inclusion of women’s experiences  which likely means a more balanced and detailed approach to polygamy, it seems they have covered the usual issues that have drawn the most criticism for being downplayed or even ignored at times (no mention of polygamous marriages in timelines of church presidents’ lives in the Teaching of the Presidents series, for example).

I am very happy the Church has gone this direction in the last couple of decades with active support and then use of historical scholarship.  I think long term benefit will be huge as stories that were once shared due to personal family connection (I am thinking of the stories I heard of the polygamous relationships in my family’s past, including my grandmother talking about an “aunt”) become part of the narrative again and now accessible for all Saints.

I am hoping later volumes will add the narratives of nonAmerican Saints to the ‘standard’ heritage of the Church, so that the well known stories are not just the ones of the struggles from Palmyra to Utah, but wherever they took place. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

One of the sources they used that I would LOVE to read is the Salt Lake Temple Dedicatory Services,1893, the official transcript. I've seen it quoted here and there but how do people get access to that? 

Sometimes digital copies are available or will be made if you ask the Church History Dept. Do you know where to ask?

added:  see Smac May have posted it. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This?

Thanks,

-Smac

Wow. Thanks.

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow. Thanks.

Weird.  The link in Chrome leads to a 404 error and an altered URL (https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/details/salt-lake-temple/prayer/1893-04-06).  The "abn." at the front is added by Chrome automatically, which I think creates the 404 error.  However, putting the above link (without the "abn.") into Microsoft Edge takes you to the text I quoted above.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From the Deseret News:

Hmm.  That first paragraph is pretty bracing.

I think that's true.  Times, they are a changin'...

Very cool.  

I think our ancestors' virtues and accomplishments merit just as much attention as their mistakes and flaws.  More, in fact.

I am very glad to hear about this emphasis.  Our history has not given sufficient attention to it in the past.

The whole article is worth a read.

I'm happy to see this.  We need to educate about and contextualize our history.  We need to innoculate, rather than insulate.  We'll end up with a healthier understanding and appreciation of what our ancestors accomplished.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I’m not sure times are a changin’ all that much. B. H. Roberts, as I recall, gave a fairly candid treatment of Mountain Meadows Massacre in his A Comprehensive History of the Church which was published by the Church back in the 1930s. 

[Calm]

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/02/11/fairmormon-conference-podcast-51-scott-hales-the-exodus-and-beyond-a-preview-of-saints-volume-2-no-unhallowed-hand

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019/12/02/fairmormon-conference-podcast-49-angela-hallstrom-womens-voices-in-saints-volume-2

 

[Duncan]

55 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This?

Thanks,

-Smac

ah no! They quoted President Joseph F. Smith but it came from the "Salt Lake Temple Dedication Services, Apr. 6, 1893, 20." So we know there are at least 20 pages of this transcript

[Jeanne]

This book came out  on my Deseret Book updates this morning.  Wondering if I could get both vol 1 and 2 up here in Logan without having to order.  Can anyone tell me how much you might have enjoyed vol 1 and why?

Thanks so much.  Open to learning more.

[Calm]

Here is the link to making requests:

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/chl-duplication?lang=eng

The catalog search function isn't working for me, so you might have to ask to see if already digitized as I assume it is.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not sure times are a changin’ all that much. B. H. Roberts, as I recall, gave a fairly candid treatment of Mountain Meadows Massacre in his A Comprehensive History of the Church which was published by the Church back in the 1930s. 

True.  But I think widespread dissemination of increasingly candid portrayals of our history is happening.

I consider myself fortunate to have had my dad in my life, as he was quite familiar with the history of the Church, and so was a stabilizing influence for me as I started encountering troubling elements of it.

My "innoculation" experience began when I was about ten years old.  I became a fan of a series of books called "The Storm Testament" written by Lee Nelson.  These books were "historical fiction" along the lines of Gerald Lund's "The Work and the Glory" series.  That is, these books invented a fictional protagonist, Dan Storm, who was a young member of the 19th-century Church, and who had a series of adventures in Missouri, then Nauvoo, then Utah . . . and so on.  He interacts with real historical figures, and many of the stories take place in the context of real events in church history.  The fictional antagonist is D-ick Boggs, the (fictional) cousin of Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs.

I enjoyed these books until I came to the fourth one, the plot summary for which is as follows:

Quote

When Dan Storm learns that an old enemy, D-ick Boggs, is traveling with the Fancher Company, he takes things into his own hands. Join Storm as he and a good friend trail D-ick Boggs to Mountain Meadows, where an unusual sequence of events triggers one of the bloodiest massacres in the history of the American West. A beautiful blind woman, the kidnapping of two little girls, a frantic chase through the Utah wilderness, and an unanticipated romance make this one of the most intriguing historical novels of Western LDS history.

This book then proceeds to give a fictionalized, but still more or less accurate, description of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  I still recall the feeling I had at reading how the members of the Church in Iron County ended up attacking the wagon train (dressed as Indians, along with some Paiutes), the detection of the deception, and the eventual horrific decision to kill all of the immigrants.  

I read the book from a naive point of view.  I remember feeling a bit uneasy, as I kept expecting the narrative to change, that the Mormon militiamen would have a turn of heart, would recognize the depravity of plan to attack and kill the migrants, and would figure out a way to change course and stop the carnage and let the migrants go.  But that's not what happened.  Instead, the story played out and . . . well, we all know what happened.

This bothered me.  A lot.  I had my first dose of "cognitive dissonance" in a fundamental way.  I could not reconcile the narrative of the MMM with the narrative I had been taught all my life about the early days of the Church and the heroic pioneers who crossed the plains.  I'm not sure I had a "crisis of faith," but if not, whatever I experienced was right next to it.

I took the book to my dad, who I knew was well-versed in the history of the Church.  I told him what I had read, and that I did not think it was true because . . . it was too horrible.  My dad, who was reading the newspaper at the time, but the paper down and we had a discussion for a bit over an hour.  He told me in clear and concise terms that the narrative I had read was pretty much correct (except the fictional part about Dan Storm helping a blind migrant woman escape the massacre).  He said he understood how disturbing this story is.  

He then spent quite a bit of time outlining the context of the event.  He explained the persecutions which the Saints had faced in Missouri and Nauvoo, how these persecutions had fomented some real anger and bitterness among some members of the Church which had probably never been fully addressed/resolved.  He explained the difficulties and privations of the trek West, which trek was the consequence of the persecution of the Church members in Missouri and Nauvoo.  He explained the first ten years the church members spent in the territory.  He explained the war hysteria which preceded the MMM, including A) the coming of Johnston's Army, B) the order from Brigham Young to stockpile supplies and the consequent friction with the migrants (who had anticipated being able to purchase food/materials in Utah before making the last leg of the journey to California), and C) George A. Smith's "Salt Sermon."  He explained the relative isolation of the Saints in southern Utah.  He was careful here, telling me that he wanted me to understand the whole situation, but that I should not take his explanation of the circumstances preceding the massacre as somehow justifying or excusing the acts of the members of the Church.

He then spent some time talking about the Church as a group of flawed people.  He also characterized the 19th century as being a very different place from our current life (this was in the 80s).  He said we should not condone or excuse the massacre, but neither should we ignore the context in which it happened.  He also said I should keep a distinction between the doctrines of the Church and the members of the Church and how they implement those doctrines, and that flaws and mistakes - even terrible acts like the massacre - do not change the reality that God lives, that Jesus Christ is His Son, and that The Book of Mormon is true.

I remember feeling very different about the Church after this discussion with my dad.  I felt more sober.  I felt more . . . realistic.  Looking back, I think the Restored Gospel ceased at that point to be simply a series of stories sung about during Sunday School.  It became something more.  It became . . . more real to me.  It was not an altogether pleasant process.  My childish perception of the Church was idyllic, which was never going to be sustainable.  A transition to someting more durable was necessary.

Some years later I graduated from high school and joined the Army.  During my training I had a series of written communications with my dad in which I asked him about all sorts of things about the Church, the Gospel, and so on.  I asked him what had happened to the Sword of Laban.  I asked him about polygamy.  I asked him about how women felt about polygamy (those who actually experienced it).  I asked him about blacks and the priesthood.  I asked him about Joseph Smith's polygamy.  I asked about the Liahona.  Anything that piqued my interest.

My dad, who had a large library of church history books (and also, IIRC, a set of "Infobase" CD-ROMS with additional materials), and who was our ward's Gospel Doctrine teacher at the time, wrote me long, detailed responses to my inquiries, with references and everything.  It was an amazing experience.  I was exhilarated at finding out that there were deep and complex and nuanced details about the simple Gospel stories I had been taught as a child (mostly by my mom, who created a series of illustrated church history lessons she kept in a looseleaf binder, which she used to teach lessons to us every Sunday).  And that the beautiful and profound truths of the Gospel can be accepted as true despite the many flaws and errors of the Saints (even terrible things like the MMM).  He closed most of his letters with an exhortation that I continue to study and be curious about the Gospel, but that I retain in focus what he called the "planks" of a testimony, which were, IIRC, that God lives, that Jesus Christ is His Son, that the Priesthood is His Power, and The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God.  Everything else, he said, is "parsley on the side of the plate" (or some such similar metaphor).

I will always be grateful to my parents.  To my mother, who through sheer force of will taught her children many lessons about Church history and the scriptures.  And to my father, who helped me in times of potential cognitive dissonance, who taught me that faith and knowledge are complementary to each other, that studying scholarship pertaining to the Church and to the Gospel can and should augment faith in the Gospel, even though such efforts have required me to move beyond the simplified and idyllic version I was taught as a child.  But that is, I think, as it should be.  As Paul put it: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

My parents "inoculated" me by teaching me to study through reading and prayer, and to seek to understand difficult truths in measured and circumspect and faithful ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

True.  But I think widespread dissemination of increasingly candid portrayals of our history is happening.

I consider myself fortunate to have had my dad in my life, as he was quite familiar with the history of the Church, and so was a stabilizing influence for me as I started encountering troubling elements of it.

My "innoculation" experience began when I was about ten years old.  I became a fan of a series of books called "The Storm Testament" written by Lee Nelson.  These books were "historical fiction" along the lines of Gerald Lund's "The Work and the Glory" series.  That is, these books invented a fictional protagonist, Dan Storm, who was a young member of the 19th-century Church, and who had a series of adventures in Missouri, then Nauvoo, then Utah . . . and so on.  He interacts with real historical figures, and many of the stories take place in the context of real events in church history.  The fictional antagonist is D-ick Boggs, the (fictional) cousin of Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs.

I enjoyed these books until I came to the fourth one, the plot summary for which is as follows:

This book then proceeds to give a fictionalized, but still more or less accurate, description of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  I still recall the feeling I had at reading how the members of the Church in Iron County ended up attacking the wagon train (dressed as Indians, along with some Paiutes), the detection of the deception, and the eventual horrific decision to kill all of the immigrants.  

I read the book from a naive point of view.  I remember feeling a bit uneasy, as I kept expecting the narrative to change, that the Mormon militiamen would have a turn of heart, would recognize the depravity of plan to attack and kill the migrants, and would figure out a way to change course and stop the carnage and let the migrants go.  But that's not what happened.  Instead, the story played out and . . . well, we all know what happened.

This bothered me.  A lot.  I had my first dose of "cognitive dissonance" in a fundamental way.  I could not reconcile the narrative of the MMM with the narrative I had been taught all my life about the early days of the Church and the heroic pioneers who crossed the plains.  I'm not sure I had a "crisis of faith," but if not, whatever I experienced was right next to it.

I took the book to my dad, who I knew was well-versed in the history of the Church.  I told him what I had read, and that I did not think it was true because . . . it was too horrible.  My dad, who was reading the newspaper at the time, but the paper down and we had a discussion for a bit over an hour.  He told me in clear and concise terms that the narrative I had read was pretty much correct (except the fictional part about Dan Storm helping a blind migrant woman escape the massacre).  He said he understood how disturbing this story is.  

He then spent quite a bit of time outlining the context of the event.  He explained the persecutions which the Saints had faced in Missouri and Nauvoo, how these persecutions had fomented some real anger and bitterness among some members of the Church which had probably never been fully addressed/resolved.  He explained the difficulties and privations of the trek West, which trek was the consequence of the persecution of the Church members in Missouri and Nauvoo.  He explained the first ten years the church members spent in the territory.  He explained the war hysteria which preceded the MMM, including A) the coming of Johnston's Army, B) the order from Brigham Young to stockpile supplies and the consequent friction with the migrants (who had anticipated being able to purchase food/materials in Utah before making the last leg of the journey to California), and C) George A. Smith's "Salt Sermon."  He explained the relative isolation of the Saints in southern Utah.  He was careful here, telling me that he wanted me to understand the whole situation, but that I should not take his explanation of the circumstances preceding the massacre as somehow justifying or excusing the acts of the members of the Church.

He then spent some time talking about the Church as a group of flawed people.  He also characterized the 19th century as being a very different place from our current life (this was in the 80s).  He said we should not condone or excuse the massacre, but neither should we ignore the context in which it happened.  He also said I should keep a distinction between the doctrines of the Church and the members of the Church and how they implement those doctrines, and that flaws and mistakes - even terrible acts like the massacre - do not change the reality that God lives, that Jesus Christ is His Son, and that The Book of Mormon is true.

I remember feeling very different about the Church after this discussion with my dad.  I felt more sober.  I felt more . . . realistic.  Looking back, I think the Restored Gospel ceased at that point to be simply a series of stories sung about during Sunday School.  It became something more.  It became . . . more real to me.  It was not an altogether pleasant process.  My childish perception of the Church was idyllic, which was never going to be sustainable.  A transition to someting more durable was necessary.

Some years later I graduated from high school and joined the Army.  During my training I had a series of written communications with my dad in which I asked him about all sorts of things about the Church, the Gospel, and so on.  I asked him what had happened to the Sword of Laban.  I asked him about polygamy.  I asked him about how women felt about polygamy (those who actually experienced it).  I asked him about blacks and the priesthood.  I asked him about Joseph Smith's polygamy.  I asked about the Liahona.  Anything that piqued my interest.

My dad, who had a large library of church history books (and also, IIRC, a set of "Infobase" CD-ROMS with additional materials), and who was our ward's Gospel Doctrine teacher at the time, wrote me long, detailed responses to my inquiries, with references and everything.  It was an amazing experience.  I was exhilarated at finding out that there were deep and complex and nuanced details about the simple Gospel stories I had been taught as a child (mostly by my mom, who created a series of illustrated church history lessons she kept in a looseleaf binder, which she used to teach lessons to us every Sunday).  And that the beautiful and profound truths of the Gospel can be accepted as true despite the many flaws and errors of the Saints (even terrible things like the MMM).  He closed most of his letters with an exhortation that I continue to study and be curious about the Gospel, but that I retain in focus what he called the "planks" of a testimony, which were, IIRC, that God lives, that Jesus Christ is His Son, that the Priesthood is His Power, and The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God.  Everything else, he said, is "parsley on the side of the plate" (or some such similar metaphor).

I will always be grateful to my parents.  To my mother, who through sheer force of will taught her children many lessons about Church history and the scriptures.  And to my father, who helped me in times of potential cognitive dissonance, who taught me that faith and knowledge are complementary to each other, that studying scholarship pertaining to the Church and to the Gospel can and should augment faith in the Gospel, even though such efforts have required me to move beyond the simplified and idyllic version I was taught as a child.  But that is, I think, as it should be.  As Paul put it: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

My parents "inoculated" me by teaching me to study through reading and prayer, and to seek to understand difficult truths in measured and circumspect and faithful ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

What a wonderful account, Smac. I should like to have known your father. 

It sounds like you grew up with questions about the Church as distinguished from doubts. We’ve discussed the distinction here on the board recently. 

One minor picking point: I thought the “Salt Sermon” was what Sidney Rigdon gave back in Missouri that led up to the violent conflict between Church members and Missourians. I do know that George A. Smith gave incendiary speeches in southern Utah to rally the Saints against the dreaded approach of Johnston’s army. Perhaps he gave a talk called the “Salt Sermon” as well. 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

From the Deseret News:

Hmm.  That first paragraph is pretty bracing.

I think that's true.  Times, they are a changin'...

Very cool.  

I think our ancestors' virtues and accomplishments merit just as much attention as their mistakes and flaws.  More, in fact.

I am very glad to hear about this emphasis.  Our history has not given sufficient attention to it in the past.

The whole article is worth a read.

I'm happy to see this.  We need to educate about and contextualize our history.  We need to innoculate, rather than insulate.  We'll end up with a healthier understanding and appreciation of what our ancestors accomplished.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for posting.  Those statements are encouraging.  I must keep my expectations low this time because I was much more hopeful about the first volume.  Unfortunately, after reading it I found some seriously glaring issues with respect to the narratives presented.  Yes, they brought up some challenging historical episodes, but on many topics the authors displayed a remarkably unprofessional bias towards faith promoting interpretations.  Well at least what certain people think is faith promoting, I have a different opinion.  

But overall, I need to temper my frustrations, because I try to realize that all openness takes time and develops in degrees.  Also realizing that the people writing and reading these productions are going through a process of thesis, antithesis, synthesis.  It will take time before what I see as more mature interpretation of the evidence becomes acceptable to be put forward in “authoritative” publications.  

[Thinking]

Increasing candor means that in the past there was less candor. Yet I've been told many times that the Church's history was not hidden. OK, can we at least agree that the Church's complete history was not easy to find, especially before the internet?

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

But overall, I need to temper my frustrations, because I try to realize that all openness takes time and develops in degrees.  Also realizing that the people writing and reading these productions are going through a process of thesis, antithesis, synthesis.  It will take time before what I see as more mature interpretation of the evidence becomes acceptable to be put forward in “authoritative” publications.  

And of course there is the issue of not everyone agreeing with your opinion of what 'more mature interpretation of the evidence' looks like.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Weird.  The link in Chrome leads to a 404 error and an altered URL (https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/details/salt-lake-temple/prayer/1893-04-06).  The "abn." at the front is added by Chrome automatically, which I think creates the 404 error.  However, putting the above link (without the "abn.") into Microsoft Edge takes you to the text I quoted above.

Thanks,

-Smac

I was just "wowing" at the quote you posted.

I usually just buy cheap chromebooks and have them at various locations, and then there's the phone, and then a microsoft machine I seldom use because I am not a windows fan at all, with all the security garbage one needs to worry about.  So I have probably 5 devices I use to post here, all have their own quirks.  And of course deleting the "abn" did not work because when I hit enter, it just automatically put it in anyway!    I will try it on a microsoft machine if I get a chance.

Being a convert, there is a lot I have not run into before, and this was a major miss in my LDS education so I appreciate it.

I am dumbfounded that Pres W. could have just said all those words through inspiration, spontaneously on the spot in a huge public meeting as that must have been.  I am called upon fairly regularly to give the prayer circle prayer which is typically by guidelines restricted to about 3 minutes, including the repetition, making the officiators part about a minute and a half, and I have trouble saying that much, and it is a tad   less profound..... just a tad of course.   

But man, the details in that man's mind through inspiration were just mind-boggling to me.   Thanks again!

Edited February 12, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

20 hours ago, Thinking said:

Increasing candor means that in the past there was less candor. Yet I've been told many times that the Church's history was not hidden. OK, can we at least agree that the Church's complete history was not easy to find, especially before the internet?

I would say it was more ignored by some and unknown by others. Saints could not, imo, have been written as well say 30 years ago.  The JSPs and other documents had not been accessible.  I intend to compare it out of curiosity to Arrington’s Mormon Experience, which I have always thought would make a great church history study text for members.  

In some ways the end results were the same as if it were hidden in the sense of widespread knowledge as part of the ‘typical’ member’s narrative, but there was always a core of scholars and those who sought out history for personal study which would have had much less to work with if the Church has actually hidden information. 
 

I will be very interested to see what the ‘typical’ member’s knowledge of church history will be like 30 years from now (assuming I am both still alive and coherent enough to care), whether it will be significantly different as in more in depth and nuanced.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

But overall, I need to temper my frustrations, because I try to realize that all openness takes time and develops in degrees.  Also realizing that the people writing and reading these productions are going through a process of thesis, antithesis, synthesis.  It will take time before what I see as more mature interpretation of the evidence becomes acceptable to be put forward in “authoritative” publications.  

And even before that, they need to understand that they are starting on a journey OF " thesis, antithesis, synthesis", and how many understand that principle?

It's almost as if one needs first to understand a philosophical approach before one can do the philosophy and FIND ideas like " thesis, antithesis, synthesis" which will enable them to get beyond getting stuck in the "antithesis" stage.

In climbing a staircase as a blind man, one never knows how many steps there are yet ahead and one may turn back only half way up.

Jacob's ladder is often a bit steeper than we think.   I am so thankful that I had all that philosophy stuff in my head before I found the church or there is no chance I would be here today.

To me THAT is the challenge.

Kevin C sees it in posting on the Perry Scheme, that becomes the flashlight allowing us to see those steps ahead before we get to them as we navigate through the clouds on the ladder upward. 

But then how does one get folks to find and accept that this is a journey in the first place, and provide them with the tools to make the journey?

It's a Catch 22, and most will not even get that reference. 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I will be very interested to see what the ‘typical’ member’s knowledge of church history will be like 30 years from now (assuming I am both still alive and coherent enough to care), whether it will be significantly different as in more in depth and nuanced.

I think it will have to be, or no one will be left believing it.  Philosophies come and go and this, God's own philosophy, has become buried beneath man's constructed histories, which have clouded the treasure below.

It's almost as if Joseph's "treasure digging" has become a metaphor for all of us in this process.   We all have to dig to find the treasure, and not many even know where it is buried, or that it exists to find.

Perhaps it will need to be restored yet again, in contemporary terms.

Quite frankly, I fear that if it is now done now, it will have to wait for another to make it happen.   But President Nelson may be doing that, he may be the one.   I just hope the Lord preserves him or at least that he inspires enough folks to give those who follow the directions.

[strappinglad]

I have definitely been on the fringes with semi-apostate teachers because I knew about many of the ' controversial ' issues in Church History over 50 years ago. I was taught about them in Seminary, the horror! Mind you , I continue to learn. They could have taken the wind out of some critics sails had they laid all this out well before the internet generation , but hindsight is 15-20 .

In an era of the 30 sec. sound bite and 140 character tweet, I fear that many will not have the desire or stamina to read for hours and discover the nuances etc. Even I usually skip any presentation that takes over 30 minutes to view. 😱

Edited February 12, 2020 by strappinglad

[hope_for_things]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And of course there is the issue of not everyone agreeing with your opinion of what 'more mature interpretation of the evidence' looks like.

Oh course!  Just talk to my kids and they would laugh at the idea of me using the word "mature" in a sentence describing anything about myself.  

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I have definitely been on the fringes with semi-apostate teachers because I knew about many of the ' controversial ' issues in Church History over 50 years ago. I was taught about them in Seminary, the horror! Mind you , I continue to learn. They could have taken the wind out of some critics sails had they laid all this out well before the internet generation , but hindsight is 15-20 .

I have always been thankful for my philosophical training because I have learned that it is the CONTENT of a world-view that captures men's souls, and not its history.

Nobody worries about the family foibles or infidelities of the framers of the US Constitution, nobody cares Beethoven's personal trials, or the personal character of any writer, composer, artist, scientist, or philosopher - and the list could go on and on- one cares about their WORK and its value to humanity.

But not so with Joseph because he called himself a "prophet", and that one word brings with it an implication of perfection.  If one is imperfect, one cannot be a "prophet"- that is the usual point of view of his critics.

Yet of course we have NO IDEA about the personal lives of Isaiah, Daniel, or any of the prophets - OR even the "true identities" of many those who's works ended up being grouped together in what we now call the "Bible"!

We have no clue about their personal lives so they are automatically free to be what our imagination can conjure up about them being "perfect"!

I think this understanding must be an essential part of the attitudinal change necessary that somehow we need to teach to take our church further forward.

[hope_for_things]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And even before that, they need to understand that they are starting on a journey OF " thesis, antithesis, synthesis", and how many understand that principle?

It's almost as if one needs first to understand a philosophical approach before one can do the philosophy and FIND ideas like " thesis, antithesis, synthesis" which will enable them to get beyond getting stuck in the "antithesis" stage.

In climbing a staircase as a blind man, one never knows how many steps there are yet ahead and one may turn back only half way up.

Jacob's ladder is often a bit steeper than we think.   I am so thankful that I had all that philosophy stuff in my head before I found the church or there is no chance I would be here today.

To me THAT is the challenge.

Kevin C sees it in posting on the Perry Scheme, that becomes the flashlight allowing us to see those steps ahead before we get to them as we navigate through the clouds on the ladder upward. 

But then how does one get folks to find and accept that this is a journey in the first place, and provide them with the tools to make the journey?

It's a Catch 22, and most will not even get that reference. 

Yes, great points.  I'm trying to live an examined life myself, and that process constantly keeps me returning to ideas that I previously held, and reevaluating them.  Perhaps its a pipe dream to think that any large number of humans will ever be in a similar orientation.  Life can be challenging enough without even traversing down this road.  

BTW, lately I'm coming to the opinion that philosophy and religion are so intertwined that its impossible to separate the two.  Makes me smile when I hear that statement about the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.  Sometimes Satan is telling the truth!