Tithing in-kind

[pogi]

5 hours ago, mtomm said:

The only person that needs to count my contributions that is not money or assets given to the Church  is me.  
Let me give an example.
You have a contractor who does snow removal at churches.  He has a contract, insurance and obviously the ability.  He doesn't invoice for part of his services.  He pays tithing partly in his time and service and partly with his work.  He then declares a full tithe even though "the books" won't reflect it monetarily.  What does he lose? The ability to deduct it on his taxes.  But with the higher exemptions already in place there is a good chunk of the population that doesn't itemize anyway, so no loss there.  

What would be the purpose of this other than to cheat the government out of taxes?  Why not just invoice for all work performed and pay tithing on that?  

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, someone who said God said it. You choose to believe him. Doesn't make it divine, or moral.

So, you're on an LDS forum, talking LDS tithing, and trying to make the case that just because LDS scripture says it, doesn't mean LDS folk should believe it?

If you're seeking acceptance of that notion, you might have a bit of an uphill struggle in these parts...

Edited December 18, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

So, as I mentioned, I'm a finance clerk.  This is my 4th or 5th year of assisting during tithing settlement.  All bishops are different in what they want of me during this process.  When people show up for tithing settlement, some bishops wanted me to ask them if they wanted me to print a donation summary out.  Some bishops tell me to print nothing out unless the member/family asks.  My current bishop tells me to print out a donation summary for everyone that comes in.  That's how my past 3-4 bishops have been different.

Here is how my past 3-4 bishops are the same:
- None of them actually review the amount donated.  They don't even look at the piece of paper.
- All of them merely ask "Have you paid a full tithe?".  If members wish to discuss details or ask questions or whatever, the bishop is happy to help.
- All the bishops are 50% stressed out at how busy they are at Christmastime, and 50% grateful for the opportunity to meet with individuals and families 1 on 1 for tithing settlement.  They all tell me that important spiritual things get surfaced and discussed during tithing settlement. They all tell me that tithing settlement is a productive time to help members get things resolved, and move the work of the kingdom forward in hearts.

From this perspective, how we go about paying tithing takes 2nd place, to the opportunity to answer to our bishop about how we've fulfilled our stewardship during the year.  And details like dollar amounts, or how it's paid, don't even make the list.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'd LOVE to pay tithing in kind (i.e. stock). It saves money and time and labor for the payer and the clerk, and the church. 

Not sure how to do it as I've emailed HQ and herd nothing back.

I had a member donate stocks to the church when I was a financial clerk, but it's not clear to me now how (or if) that can be classified as tithing when I researched it just now.

Here's the church website link:

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/gift-planning/what-to-give/assets/securities/procedure-for-donating-securities

Quote

Procedure for Donating Securities (Stock)

Thank you for considering donating securities (stock) to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Whether you transfer the shares via your broker or if you mail in a certificate, you will want to notify the Donations-in-Kind Office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by phone, (800) 453-3860, or email of your donation so you can receive proper credit and a receipt. Please include the following information:

• Name & Address
• Name of security and number of shares being donated
• Allocation of Donation (i.e. Tithing, Humanitarian, etc.)
• Name and unit number of your ward or branch

Once we have received confirmation from our brokerage that the shares are in the Church's account, a charitable contribution tax receipt will be sent to you. The value of the donations will be the average of the high and low trading price for the date the shares are transferred to our account, or the certificate is deposited. If you have any questions, please contact the Donations-in-Kind office at (800) 453-3860 ext 22554 or by email.

 

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

What would be the purpose of this other than to cheat the government out of taxes?  Why not just invoice for all work performed and pay tithing on that?  

Hadn't even occurred to me that it would be cheating on taxes.  But it would only be cheating on taxes if your tax bracket changed because you removed the amount you paid in tithing and lowered your rate. And there is a pretty large range for each tax bracket.   I'm not trying to be dishonest I just think it's an interesting concept to discuss.  

[mtomm]

44 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So, as I mentioned, I'm a finance clerk.  This is my 4th or 5th year of assisting during tithing settlement.  All bishops are different in what they want of me during this process.  When people show up for tithing settlement, some bishops wanted me to ask them if they wanted me to print a donation summary out.  Some bishops tell me to print nothing out unless the member/family asks.  My current bishop tells me to print out a donation summary for everyone that comes in.  That's how my past 3-4 bishops have been different.

Here is how my past 3-4 bishops are the same:
- None of them actually review the amount donated.  They don't even look at the piece of paper.
- All of them merely ask "Have you paid a full tithe?".  If members wish to discuss details or ask questions or whatever, the bishop is happy to help.
- All the bishops are 50% stressed out at how busy they are at Christmastime, and 50% grateful for the opportunity to meet with individuals and families 1 on 1 for tithing settlement.  They all tell me that important spiritual things get surfaced and discussed during tithing settlement. They all tell me that tithing settlement is a productive time to help members get things resolved, and move the work of the kingdom forward in hearts.

From this perspective, how we go about paying tithing takes 2nd place, to the opportunity to answer to our bishop about how we've fulfilled our stewardship during the year.  And details like dollar amounts, or how it's paid, don't even make the list.

 

My husband, as bishop,  felt the same way about tithing settlement.  It was a crazy busy time but he loved visiting with the members.  Not really applicable to the conversation, however. Obviously, the in-kind amount would not show on a printed statement. 

[mtomm]

33 minutes ago, Attalus said:

I see the question as How you should calculate what you give in proportion to what you have received?, so if you are considering giving in-kind from what you have received in services rather than money, then you need to know the value of the services that you have received.

The link in your OP gave examples of giving a tenth of real estate or shares of stock that were received by someone wanting to give in-kind to what they had received.   You don't need to know the value of something like that,  you simply give a tenth of what was received.

If you're trying to give a tenth of the monetary value of some service you received and deduct that monetary value from the money you give as a tenth of the cash you have received, you would need to somehow put a monetary value on that service you received and then deduct that monetary amount from the tithe of the total cash you received in one year.

What you give is supposed to be directly related to what you have received, so if you receive eggs and want to give a tenth of those eggs you received just give a tenth of the eggs.  And if you want to give a tenth of the money you received you would just give a tenth of that money.

Converting eggs to money, or snow plow jobs to money, doesn't change the equation for how much you should give as a tithe.  If you receive 100 snow plow jobs and want to give a tenth of those as a tithe you just do 10 plow jobs and call it good.

Yes, I realize the in-kind scenario is more complicated. And I see what you mean by how do you calculate what you've received.  

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, mtomm said:

Hadn't even occurred to me that it would be cheating on taxes.  But it would only be cheating on taxes if your tax bracket changed because you removed the amount you paid in tithing and lowered your rate. And there is a pretty large range for each tax bracket.   I'm not trying to be dishonest I just think it's an interesting concept to discuss.  

I apologize if I sounded accusatory, not my intent.  Even if your tax bracket stayed the same, if you don't invoice for work performed but instead count it as payment for tithing, it is as if the Church paid you under the table without going through the government.  You might be paying tithing on it, but you are avoiding taxes on that invoice.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, mtomm said:

Obviously, the in-kind amount would not show on a printed statement. 

Correct, and that is already true for a handful of members.  Some folks on a fixed income have their bank auto-mail a monthly check to SLC - that doesn't show up on their record.   And the stock/mutual fund transfer in-kind stuff doesn't show up either.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I apologize if I sounded accusatory, not my intent.  Even if your tax bracket stayed the same, if you don't invoice for work performed but instead count it as payment for tithing, it is as if the Church paid you under the table without going through the government.  You might be paying tithing on it, but you are avoiding taxes on that invoice.

But the Church wouldn't add the service/work as an amount into its account of tithing received I am guessing as opposed to any material donations whether cash or potatoes.  It would just be included in the understanding between the bishop and the member, not included on any records...again guessing...if agreed to....

Possible example:   'My income level is at 20,000 this year and I haven't paid tithing on half of that yet, bishop.   I need that to pay off a student loan and mortgage and other expenses and fast offering help with food and such won't come to $1000 even if all that is paid for the rest of the year because I have my own food and emergency storage that I want to use and my parents are helping out.  So instead is it okay for you to assign me services that would amount to $1000 in terms of hours worked at my current pay of $15 an hour so I can be a full tithe payer?'  Bishop agrees and sends them out to work over the last two months of the year to help those in need in the ward or do something for the ward itself like inventory and cleaning of camping/ward activity gear or nursery toys or perhaps work at the storehouse.

If done that way, how would tithing be recorded outside of showing that  $1000 (that previously paid) was a full tithe?

The government doesn't define what the Church can call tithing, does it?  They don't get to say this is pure volunteer work, this is an exchange of services that needs to be taxed.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Calm

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

If done that way, how would tithing be recorded outside of showing that  $1000 (that previously paid) was a full tithe?

You are right, I don't think it would be. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So, you're on an LDS forum, talking LDS tithing, and trying to make the case that just because LDS scripture says it, doesn't mean LDS folk should believe it?

If you're seeking acceptance of that notion, you might have a bit of an uphill struggle in these parts...

Especially given the fact she is an avowed unbeliever. 

[mtomm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I apologize if I sounded accusatory, not my intent.  Even if your tax bracket stayed the same, if you don't invoice for work performed but instead count it as payment for tithing, it is as if the Church paid you under the table without going through the government.  You might be paying tithing on it, but you are avoiding taxes on that invoice.

No offense taken. This is the type of discussion I was hoping would happen, all of the considerations. 

I think bartering can happen without it being a tax problem, that like Calm outlined?

It was a good example. 

[mtomm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I apologize if I sounded accusatory, not my intent.  Even if your tax bracket stayed the same, if you don't invoice for work performed but instead count it as payment for tithing, it is as if the Church paid you under the table without going through the government.  You might be paying tithing on it, but you are avoiding taxes on that invoice.

Yes, as the bracket only determines the rate. My bad. 

[Amulek]

7 hours ago, mtomm said:

If I plow a church parking lot 10 times,  and don't invoice my normal $100 fee per plow, I can I count that as $1000 tithing.

Except that isn't income. You weren't actually employed by the church to plow the parking lot, so there is no invoice at all - it's something you are doing on your own as an act of service. A potentially valuable service, but it's service nonetheless.

Which you kind of know, deep down, is really the case, right?

I mean, if you were to get injured while plowing the church parking lot, do you think you would be able to place a worker's comp claim with your insurance company? Of course not, because the injury isn't actually work related.

 

 

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Except that isn't income. You weren't actually employed by the church to plow the parking lot, so there is no invoice at all - it's something you are doing on your own as an act of service. A potentially valuable service, but it's service nonetheless.

Which you kind of know, deep down, is really the case, right?

I mean, if you were to get injured while plowing the church parking lot, do you think you would be able to place a worker's comp claim with your insurance company? Of course not, because the injury isn't actually work related.

 

 

Here is the rest of the plow story you left out from above.

"You have a contractor who does snow removal at churches.  He has a contract, insurance and obviously the ability.  He doesn't invoice for part of his services.  He pays tithing partly in his time and service and partly with his work."

So, yes, I am contracted but I don't invoice for the amount I want to count as tithing.

I bring this type of example because I think perhaps that  this happens. I may be in a position to have a pretty good idea that it does. It's what got me thinking about it. 

 

[Meadowchik]

16 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So, you're on an LDS forum, talking LDS tithing, and trying to make the case that just because LDS scripture says it, doesn't mean LDS folk should believe it?

If you're seeking acceptance of that notion, you might have a bit of an uphill struggle in these parts...

It's a point worth introducing, even here. I know there are LDS who do care about morality and don't consider existing scripture as the last word.

 

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Especially given the fact she is an avowed unbeliever. 

And? I still believe the church can be better.

[Amulek]

10 hours ago, mtomm said:

Here is the rest of the plow story you left out from above.

"You have a contractor who does snow removal at churches.  He has a contract, insurance and obviously the ability.  He doesn't invoice for part of his services.  He pays tithing partly in his time and service and partly with his work."

So, yes, I am contracted but I don't invoice for the amount I want to count as tithing.

If he has a contract for $100 and only invoices you $90 then you still owe him $10, and he still (ultimately) owes $10 in tithing - either $10 all at once at the end of the year or $9 and then $1 whenever he receives receipt of payment (however he prefers).

You can fiddle with the scenario, but it still ends up being the same.

Say he has a contract to do snow removal for $100 per incident; he does cleanup 10 times, but only invoices the church for 9 times. In which case, his income is $900 and he owes $90 in tithing. He doesn't get to count the 10th cleanup as tithing, because it wasn't income in the first place. It wasn't an increase; it was something he just did as an act of service. 

 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

And? I still believe the church can be better.

Fair enough.  I don't play chess, but I spend a lot of time trying to change the rules of chess too.  Stupid pointy-tipped bishops think they're so hot.

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I know there are LDS who do care about morality and don't consider existing scripture as the last word.

Who are those Latter-day Saints who don't care about morality?  Those who don't see things your way and thus accept your word as the last word?  Because surely anyone who disagrees with you doesn't care about morality! 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

He doesn't get to count the 10th cleanup as tithing, because it wasn't income in the first place. It wasn't an increase; it was something he just did as an act of service. 

Unless he has made an agreement with his bishop, I would think.  Is there anything in the handbook forbidding this?

added:  I don't see tithing as having to be paid out of one's increase.  If one owes tithing, one can pull it from one's current paycheck or from a stash of cash underneath one's mattress that has been there for years.  Cleaning the walks are something of value, but it can be designated as a freely given act of service or as inkind work as far as I can see.  There is nothing inherent to the act of not making an invoice that turns the work into charitable service of no monetary value.

I suspect some bishops would even be okay if told after the fact about it if it is presented as a necessity rather than just avoiding paperwork or something, especially if they knew the person's situation and that they had difficulty in creating cash opportunities or their situation had changed dramatically (they had intended paying tithing on the year's income at the end of the year with their usual bonus or maybe seasonal work as they had in the past, but this year something interfered such as being laid off or they were sick and missed the hiring date for their usual seasonal job...when I worked at a toy store there was a friend of the owner who came to work the last month or so of the year every year).

I think tithing being money is a more useful approach in terms of spiritual and emotional growth to the experience of giving tithing than inkind donations because the psychological impact of money is different than thinking of hours of work or something one owns.  Money represents potential, choice, freedom because it can be applied to anything.  It is a different type of sacrifice in some ways imo than an equivalent number of hours of work or possession value.  

However, I can see there might be times when setting apart part of one's day to work for the Lord as tithing that could have an strong spiritual impact as a special consecration of one's life to the Lord, just as a full time missionary experience is a different type of consecration than preparing and giving a Primary lesson weekly or other callings that tend to be fitted in around our daily mundane activities.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Calm

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Unless he has made an agreement with his bishop, I would think.  Is there anything in the handbook forbidding this?

For in-kind donations, the handbook states that the bishop would need to get approval from the Stake President who, in turn, contacts Church headquarters for approval before authorizing the bishop to accept the items. 

The key word there being "items." 

In-Kind donations to the church are, by definition, donations of assets - not services. 

 

Quote

I don't see tithing as having to be paid out of one's increase.  If one owes tithing, one can pull it from one's current paycheck or from a stash of cash underneath one's mattress that has been there for years.  

It doesn't have to strictly be paid from your increase (if my daughter wants to use one of the $2 bills from her birthday money to pay tithing on the $20 I just gave her for babysitting that's totally fine), but it most certainly must be paid on your increase (i.e., income). 

 

Quote

Cleaning the walks are something of value, but it can be designated as a freely given act of service or as inkind work as far as I can see.

Time, and work, and skill may all have value, but I tend to think of tithing as giving back to the Lord out of what you have received from Him. 

God blesses you with increase (i.e., income) and then you return 10% back to him as a tithe. Not God blesses you with increase (i.e., income) and you spend every penny of it and then try to barter with Him to work off the balance. 

That probably comes across harsher than I intend. But I really do think that one of the purposes of tithing is to help us learn how to be willing to part with something which we value and show God that we recognize it came from Him and that we are willing to return a portion of it of our own free will. 

 

Quote

I suspect some bishops would even be okay if told after the fact about it if it is presented as a necessity rather than just avoiding paperwork or something, especially if they knew the person's situation and that they had difficulty in creating cash opportunities or their situation had changed dramatically (they had intended paying tithing on the year's income at the end of the year with their usual bonus or maybe seasonal work as they had in the past, but this year something interfered such as being laid off or they were sick and missed the hiring date for their usual seasonal job...when I worked at a toy store there was a friend of the owner who came to work the last month or so of the year every year).

This is probably one of the many reasons why I will never serve as a bishop, because if someone came to me and said that they make $50K a year and usually get a $10K bonus every December - only this year, instead of a bonus, they got laid off and they wanted to perform service in-kind to pay their $5K in tithing because they hadn't paid anything all year long, I'm not sure what I would do. Maybe the Spirit could inspire me to come up with something they could do for the church which would legitimately be worth that amount of money, but I have my doubts (and I usually consider myself to be a fairly imaginative guy). 

 

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I think tithing being money is a more useful approach in terms of spiritual and emotional growth to the experience of giving tithing than inkind donations because the psychological impact of money is different than thinking of hours of work or something one owns.  Money represents potential, choice, freedom because it can be applied to anything.  It is a different type of sacrifice in some ways imo than an equivalent number of hours of work or possession value.  

I tend to agree. There is a reason why we have the expression, "Put your money where your mouth is." And when it comes to the gospel, tithing is where most people get the chance to do so. 

I say most people because, obviously, there are some people who are just so far to one end or the other of the wealth distribution curve that tithing has no meaningful effect on their lives. If you are so poor that you are essentially living of the church for assistance then it can be easy to pay tithing on the (insufficient) amount of money you make so you can remain eligible for assistance. And on the flip side, you could be someone like Bill Gates who has got so much money that he can literally give billions away each year without it ever putting a dent in his lifestyle. 

 

Quote

However, I can see there might be times when setting apart part of one's day to work for the Lord as tithing that could have an strong spiritual impact as a special consecration of one's life to the Lord, just as a full time missionary experience is a different type of consecration than preparing and giving a Primary lesson weekly or other callings that tend to be fitted in around our daily mundane activities.

I think God does expect us to consecrate our time, skills, and other things, but I don't think tithing is the mechanism that has been set up for us to grow in that area. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

And? I still believe the church can be better.

Pardon, but I’m suspicious of those who disbelieve in or have forsaken their faith in the Church suggesting changes. Too many of them would love to alter the Church right out of existence. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

because if someone came to me and said that they make $50K a year and usually get a $10K bonus every December -

I am thinking more in terms of those who earn $20,000 a year or less (in the US) and are generally unable to create a safety net because of government limitations if they are relying on help.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Calm