SL Tribune Now a Nonprofit

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Um...yes. It's a Church newspaper. I believe presenting the Church's point of view is the point and always has been. That's not a scandal. 

No, it's not a scandal. 

But the poster's assertion is a reckless falsehood that the newspaper "rarely presents multiple points of view."

By the way, this is not a thread about the Deseret News.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Amazing. Each and every word of your last sentence is false.

 

Not to be pedantic, but can you explain to me how a single word can be false?

 

[Damien the Leper]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quite sure.

 

I did a Google search on 3 characteristics of a commercial enterprise. These were the results:

 

• Quote

   

  • Adaptability. In most cases, what you start out to do will not be exactly what you're doing when you are ultimately successful. ...
  • Persistence. Inevitably, you will encounter bumps in the road. ...
  • Work ethic.

   

  These resound with religion as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not to be pedantic, but can you explain to me how a single word can be false?

 

I suppose by being combined with other words to form an assertion devoid of truth.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I did a Google search on 3 characteristics of a commercial enterprise. These were the results:

 

• These resound with religion as well.

I think you know,  whether you are willing to acknowledge it,  that this is far from a thorough or meaningful definition of "commercial enterprise."

But this is not a thread about either the definition of "commercial enterprise" or the Deseret News. To avoid the derail, I suggest you start a separate thread to discuss those topics; I may or may not contribute to it.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

I did a Google search on 3 characteristics of a commercial enterprise. These were the results:

 

• These resound with religion as well.

Those are generally characteristics of a functional human being. Heck, not even a human being, just a functional life form. 

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not to be pedantic, but can you explain to me how a single word can be false?

 

Ask Luke Skywalker, that's what he's referencing.

[2BizE]

11 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Um...yes. It's a Church newspaper. I believe presenting the Church's point of view is the point and always has been. That's not a scandal. 

Thank you for making my point.

[Analytics]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Amazing. Each and every word of your last sentence is false.

 

The biggest difference between religion and other commercial enterprises is that religion is usually more profitable.

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Thank you for making my point.

And my point is that nobody cares besides you. This is how things are supposed to be. 

[carbon dioxide]

Not surprised by this.  Newspapers are having a hard time staying afloat.   It is made worse with the Tribune in how they slant the news towards a Democrat viewpoint.  Not the best thing to do in a state that is mostly Republican and conservative independent.  Then they tend to be more critical of the LDS Church.  I have nothing wrong with the paper being critical but having too much bias in state that has lot of LDS also tends to limit your customer base.   If the Tribune wants to turn the ship around, it needs to appeal to a broader base.  Have stories that look at multiple sides of an issue.  Become a paper that those who are on the right might also enjoy reading.  Perhaps a few less anti-gun articles might be helpful. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by carbon dioxide

[Jeanne]

• No matter what...I love papers...missing them and having a hard time getting them anymore.  I can't get Deseret News or the Tribune up here to even buy outdoors..that all being said, I feel grateful that the Tribune is finding a way to stay alive.  What the Deseret News does not give us is another voice and we need that.  Whether Deseret News realizes it or not..they need the Trib!

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Analytics said:

The biggest difference between religion and other commercial enterprises is that religion is usually more profitable.

You’re talking gibberish. 

[rodheadlee]

So are we going to have separation of press and State? Certain people are trying to toss them in the same basket.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

So are we going to have separation of press and State? Certain people are trying to toss them in the same basket.

Is part of this new non-profit arrangement that the Tribune will receive government funding? That was not my understanding. 
 

The tax-exempt status would be under the doctrine that education is one of the functions for eligibility as a 501(c)3 organization. As such, the Tribune could no longer endorse political candidates, although it could still editorialize on issues of the day (presumably a thing that would fall under the education function). 
 

Come to think of it, though, this does raise an issue of fairness: Why should newspaper A enjoy tax exemption while newspaper B does not when they fill similar roles in society? At this point, with this being the Tribune’s last gasp, I don’t think anyone is going to fight its tax exemption, but I do wonder from my layman’s perspective, if a case could be made in court, if not in this instance, in future instances that are similar in nature. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is part of this new non-profit arrangement that the Tribune will receive government funding? That was not my understanding. 
 

The tax-exempt status would be under the doctrine that education is one of the functions for eligibility as a 501(c)3 organization. As such, the Tribune could no longer endorse political candidates, although it could still editorialize on issues of the day (presumably a thing that would fall under the education function). 
 

Come to think of it, though, this does raise an issue of fairness: Why should newspaper A enjoy tax exemption while newspaper B does not when they fill similar roles in society? At this point, with this being the Tribune’s last gasp, I don’t think anyone is going to fight its tax exemption, but I do wonder from my layman’s perspective, if a case could be made in court, if not in this instance, in future instances that are similar in nature. 

Your fairness argument reminds me of criticisms I've heard about credit unions--it isn't fair to for-profit banks have to compete with not-for-profit credit unions.

But I totally get your point. As another example, I have two rich uncles. Both are religious and spend their Sundays and a big chunk of their money with their respective religious groups. One of their religions is Mormonism, and the other is golf. Since both religions fill similar roles in society, is it really fair that one is tax exempt and the other isn't?

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Your fairness argument reminds me of criticisms I've heard about credit unions--it isn't fair to for-profit banks have to compete with not-for-profit credit unions.

But I totally get your point. As another example, I have two rich uncles. Both are religious and spend their Sundays and a big chunk of their money with their respective religious groups. One of their religions is Mormonism, and the other is golf. Since both religions fill similar roles in society, is it really fair that one is tax exempt and the other isn't?

Your premise is flawed. 

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your premise is flawed. 

You are special pleading. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Analytics said:

You are special pleading. 

You are engaging in the fallacy of false equivalence. 

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are engaging in the fallacy of false equivalence. 

How so? If "freedom of religion" implies that it is unconstitutional to tax churches, then why doesn't "freedom of the press" imply it is unconstitutional to tax newspapers?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is part of this new non-profit arrangement that the Tribune will receive government funding? That was not my understanding. 
 

The tax-exempt status would be under the doctrine that education is one of the functions for eligibility as a 501(c)3 organization. As such, the Tribune could no longer endorse political candidates, although it could still editorialize on issues of the day (presumably a thing that would fall under the education function). 
 

Come to think of it, though, this does raise an issue of fairness: Why should newspaper A enjoy tax exemption while newspaper B does not when they fill similar roles in society? At this point, with this being the Tribune’s last gasp, I don’t think anyone is going to fight its tax exemption, but I do wonder from my layman’s perspective, if a case could be made in court, if not in this instance, in future instances that are similar in nature. 

 

4 hours ago, Analytics said:

Your fairness argument reminds me of criticisms I've heard about credit unions--it isn't fair to for-profit banks have to compete with not-for-profit credit unions.

But I totally get your point. As another example, I have two rich uncles. Both are religious and spend their Sundays and a big chunk of their money with their respective religious groups. One of their religions is Mormonism, and the other is golf. Since both religions fill similar roles in society, is it really fair that one is tax exempt and the other isn't?

It seems to me that you are both misunderstanding what a nonprofit is or does. There is no fairness issue. A nonprofit by definition does not enrich its owners or shareholders. There is no return on investments. People can be paid for services rendered, but if Huntsman owns the tribune, he would not be allowed to earn anything from it. Since there is no profit motive, the state doesn’t tax the entity. So a credit union makes no money for its shareholders, while a bank does.  If the Deseret News makes money, it is turned over to its owner, the Church. 

[Analytics]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

It seems to me that you are both misunderstanding what a nonprofit is or does. There is no fairness issue. A nonprofit by definition does not enrich its owners or shareholders. There is no return on investments. People can be paid for services rendered, but if Huntsman owns the tribune, he would not be allowed to earn anything from it. Since there is no profit motive, the state doesn’t tax the entity. So a credit union makes no money for its shareholders, while a bank does.  If the Deseret News makes money, it is turned over to its owner, the Church. 

In that sense, the Salt Lake Tribune has been a nominal non-profit for the last 15 years or so, hasn't it?

Anyway, I don't think I agree with you here. Non-profits can enrich their owners--the money simply needs to be funneled to them through salary and bonuses rather than as profit. Huntsman is free to use his role as owner to give himself any job at the paper that he wants, and to pay himself basically as much as he wants. It is common for executive directors of non-profits to have compensation packages with a performance bonus element--if the non-profit makes more money, the executive director gets a bigger bonus.

The bigger issue is tax-deductibility of money paid to the organization.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

In that sense, the Salt Lake Tribune has been a nominal non-profit for the last 15 years or so, hasn't it?

Anyway, I don't think I agree with you here. Non-profits can enrich their owners--the money simply needs to be funneled to them through salary and bonuses rather than as profit.
 

Sure, but there is no financial incentive to do so. The salary and bonuses are taxed at the same rate in both for profit and not for profit entities. In non-religious nonprofits salaries are public. 

Quote

Huntsman is free to use his role as owner to give himself any job at the paper that he wants, and to pay himself basically as much as he wants. It is common for executive directors of non-profits to have compensation packages with a performance bonus element--if the non-profit makes more money, the executive director gets a bigger bonus.

Sure. Except for the make money part, which non profits can’t do. I’ve never understood the idea that charitable organizations shouldn’t compensate their employees in a competitive fashion. Again though, there is no fairness disadvantage here. Both for profit and nonprofit organizations pay salaries and bonuses. These salaries and bonuses are taxed. 

Quote

The bigger issue is tax-deductibility of money paid to the organization.

Which doesn’t give any advantage to the non-profit over the for profit business. 

To your initial proposal there is nothing stopping anyone from making a nonprofit golf association. The fact that there are none should tell you something about the ease of raising capita if you are a non-profit vs for profit business. 

[Damien the Leper]

On 11/4/2019 at 10:11 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you know,  whether you are willing to acknowledge it,  that this is far from a thorough or meaningful definition of "commercial enterprise."

But this is not a thread about either the definition of "commercial enterprise" or the Deseret News. To avoid the derail, I suggest you start a separate thread to discuss those topics; I may or may not contribute to it.

 

But they are strong and evident characteristics that make up commercial enterprise. Of course this isn't a lesson on the ontology and expansive definition of the term. No one was claiming that.

I've no interest in starting a thread. All that needed to be said about it has been said.

[Damien the Leper]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:14 PM, OGHoosier said:

Those are generally characteristics of a functional human being. Heck, not even a human being, just a functional life form. 

Right. That's not news. I'm saying that churches cannot be left out from under the banner of commercial enterprise.