Eternal Gender: Biology at Birth?

[california boy]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So? Seriously why do these numbers matter?

How is this different than other congenital medical problems?

We all have problems. We all have temptations.

Are you saying all these people have immoral lifestyles?

I absolutely agree with you.  And when medical science can change things to give that person a better life, then I don't see why anyone could not support that.

[california boy]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

This is the core concern, imo. Whether or not we can determine the sex of a spirit from the physical aspect of an individual.  Even if the sex of a spirit is eternal, does that force the mortal body to match it?

I don't think anyone can claim that they can determine the sex of a spirit.  And I believe the sex of a spirit is eternal.  What I do know is how you look from the  outside is often not how you feel in the inside.  I still feel like I am 18, but when I look in the mirror, I clearly know that physically, I am not. 

 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

For those who don’t believe in spirit, substitute “mind”...

If it doesn’t, then the question becomes why is it wrong to try and match it using mortal resources?

For me, the question is, why does it matter if someone changes their appearance?  They have their free agency.  And there is nothing sinful about cosmetic surgery or hormonal replacement therapy.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

If somehow it does (if we can guarantee it matches up except in rare cases biological sex is unable to be determined), then the question is how do we choose to help those who are under the delusion it doesn’t match?  Are they really in the best position to judge?  And how do we treat those of indeterminate sex?

Why do you think we need to change someones delusion?  Eternally, does it make one bit of difference?  And who but them is in the best position to judge how they feel inside?  Let's say they are totally delusional and their spirit does match their physical body.  Can't God handle this through the resurrection?  If medical science can chang the physical appearance, I just have enough simple faith to think it is something God can help with.  How he does that, I have no idea.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I would assume church policy remains case by case for situations involving indeterminate sex while policy for those with clear biological sexual characteristics of one sex is the person’s sex is what it is biologically defined as.

Church policy IMO is ridiculous.  It comes from a place of fearing that what is not normal.  Just like the fears Ahab has.  Well guess what.  Not everyone is always normal.  The question is, do we need them to be?  Personally, I love diversity.  I love that everyone is different and has strengths and weaknesses.  I don't need everyone to be just like me.  

No one has given a single reason why the Church should care.  No matter what someone does to their body, the spirit is not altered by medical science.  It is just a body.  The Church should be focused on bringing that person closer to God.  How does kicking them out of the Church help with that eternal goal? 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I think some confusion on this topic is the result of conflating intersex with transgender. They are not the same.  When speaking of existing policy, that likely refers to those with clear biological sex even if Oaks’ talk had implications for intersex individuals (in the sense it may have ignored them).

No they are not exactly the same.  But what is the same is both are outside the norm.  Is that a problem?  Why?

[california boy]

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

I'm picturing you and me standing at the window of a baby delivery room in a hospital when they bring in one of your grand children.

I see something on that child and say:  Congratulations, mski!  It's a boy!

And then you say something like: Yeah, maybe, or at least it kind of looks like it.  But we really can't be sure, can we?  Maybe there is a girl in that boy's body just waiting to come out!

Have fun, bro.  Whatever you get I hope you are happy with them.

In that delivery room, where you can see the physical body of the baby, can you also see the sex of the spirit in that body?  No one is arguing that you can't determine the baby's physical sex.  Even a transgender person identifies what sex their body that they have be give is.  

[california boy]

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

“When counseling with any members experiencing challenges related to their sexual orientation, Church leaders should affirm that God loves all His children, including those dealing with confusion about their sexual identity or other LGBT feelings,” President Oaks said. “Such members and their families have unique challenges. They should be offered hope and be ministered to as directed by the Spirit according to their true needs, remembering the admonition of Alma to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort (see Mosiah 18:9).”

“Because we love God and understand His great plan of salvation and the significance of His commandments, we manifest our love for our neighbors by helping them come unto Christ, repent, and keep His commandments. This is part of bearing one another’s burdens that they may be light.”

I agree with this statement.  And I think the policy of excommunicating or shunning someone from say temple work does not accomplish the stated task.  And it is about the taske.

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

So I suppose repentance means that if someone has had sex "change" surgery they should change it back to what it was before they changed it.  And we should manifest our love for our neighbors who have done that by helping them do that to the extent that we can help them.

 

This is ridiculous.  Just how do you get that penis back once it is cut off?  

And if they physically can not repent, then what.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

My personal opinion is yes.  The physical changes are only physical.  Just like any other cosmetic or hormonal treatment.  

Thanks for explaining.  Have to say I disagree having had surgery that just that qualified as cosmetic and removal of actual organs....big difference in how each affects the body...and emotions.  Changing hormones changes how one feels, thinks, lives.  Cosmetic changes may impact feelings about oneself, but only indirectly, not by direct chemical action on one's cells.

Trying to understand reasoning...would you feel the same way about an anorexic or someone with foreign limb syndrome, both of which have individuals who are willing to give up everything to become the people they believe they truly are?

If not, you would encourage them to seek counseling rather than starve themselves or undergo surgery which removes healthy limbs or leaves them partially or fully paralyzed or would you approach it in some other way?

(Given we don't know what causes transgenderism, there is a possibility it is in the same category as body dysphorias.)

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks for explaining.  Have to say I disagree having had surgery that just that qualified as cosmetic and removal of actual organs....big difference in how each affects the body...and emotions.  Changing hormones changes how one feels, thinks, lives.  Cosmetic changes may impact feelings about oneself, but only indirectly, not by direct chemical action on one's cells.

Tell me how you think this applies to transgender surgery and hormonal therapy?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I absolutely agree with you.  And when medical science can change things to give that person a better life, then I don't see why anyone could not support that.

I agree.  The problem I see is people define "better life" in different ways.  Some would see sex reassignment surgery as resulting, not in a better life, but a worse one.

At this point I am not sure how we could come up with a measure that would be reasonable for all the viewpoints of the majority of society, including those experiencing transgenderism (whose opinions should be given significantly extra weight as well as doctors and psychologists who work with them, imo).  

The problem I see with taking the approach the individual has the right to decide what to do with his own body, even if detrimental, is the money going into surgical approaches (both research and actual treatment) might be better spent on finding more effective treatments, given the current state of a high percentage of transgender suicide even after reassignment surgery.  But unless we come up with a way to see the future, there is no way to predict when or even if significantly more successful treatments could be found and so it seems unjust to deny choice to those suffering right now.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

Tell me how you think this applies to transgender surgery and hormonal therapy?

Removing ovaries and testicles as well as giving hormones will directly affect emotions and likely thought (such as memory).  This is more therefore than just change in appearance.

For example, testosterone affects how the brain operates:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/280915.php

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Removing ovaries and testicles as well as giving hormones will directly affect emotions and likely thought (such as memory).  This is more therefore than just change in appearance.

So, still not sure what you think this might do to someone opting to transition.  It seems like their thoughts have already been altered.

Do you think the Church should prohibit any surgery that might affect emotions and thought?  Does removing ovaries or testicles actually change your sex? 

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

So, still not sure what you think this might do to someone opting to transition.  It seems like their thoughts have already been altered.

Do you think the Church should prohibit any surgery that might affect emotions and thought?  Does removing ovaries or testicles actually change your sex? 

I am just pointing out calling it cosmetic, which generally is used to describe altering appearance, is not the most accurate of definition for transgender surgery.

I am not suggesting that noncosmetic surgery is out of bounds.  I do think in most cases the effects, all of them, need to be included in determining the value of surgery...especially when it can't be reversed.

I don't think the Church's reasoning has to do with mind alteration.  And I am not concerned about changing sex.  That is not my judgment call.

 My reasoning for caution has no religious basis, rather it is founded in my observations of myself and others over the past 50 years of the impact of medical treatment too hastily decided upon without sufficient study of the individual or the disorder.  Even drugs can have effects that are not reversible, myself being a prime example, my disorder is severe rendering me incapable of holding a job, getting that doctorate I was planning on or even leaving my house or my bed many days and my last years may be pure hell looking at my dad and grandfather unless they come up with stuff better than they have now soon...all because doctors assumed they knew what was wrong and ignored research being done by a few and instead gave me the worst drugs for my disorder (SSRI) even when warnings for augmentation were available.  And I agreed because I was desperate for sleep and relief from the sensation my body was going to snap like a rubber band, it was so tense.

Right now the standard treatment are the anti-Parkinson's drugs which are well known by specialists to make it worse, but instead of doing the research on new drugs, doctors are happy to just keep prescribing this stuff which ends up making the disorder tons worse and raises the drugs to levels of major side effects.  My dad at his death was taking 4 times the recommended top dosage by experts because his doctor was thinking it was perfectly okay since Parkinson patients take much more.

I have been told by professionals that it is not unusual for clinics to assume surgery and hormone treatment as the default.  I understand the desire to relieve suffering.  I have just seen it backfire way too many times to not be concerned given the extensive mental and emotional issues associated with most cases of transgenderism.  I expect doctors would require significant counseling prior to agreeing to cut a healthy limb off and many would likely refuse to do so on the grounds of "do no harm".  Why aren't the same rules applied to removing healthy organs? (Serious question, not rhetorical)

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am just pointing out calling it cosmetic, which generally is used to describe altering appearance, is not the most accurate of definition for transgender surgery.

I am not suggesting that noncosmetic surgery is out of bounds.  I do think in most cases the effects, all of them, need to be included in determining the value of surgery...especially when it can't be reversed.

I don't think the Church's reasoning has to do with mind alteration.  And I am not concerned about changing sex.  That is not my judgment call.  My reasoning for caution has no religious basis, rather it is founded in my observations of myself and others over the past 50 years of the impact of medical treatment too hastily decided upon without sufficient study of the individual or the disorder.

Oh I agree, the surgery is serious and as I understand it, there is quite a lengthy process including counseling before any surgery is done.  

Why do you think the Church objects to the surgery?  Is there some kind of sin involved?  

[Calm]

Sorry, I have got to stop talking about medical issues...given at the moment I am yet again having to subject myself to a drug that most likely won't work and has major side effects for six weeks in hopes that insurance will pay for a way too expensive treatment ('improved' ketamine, meaning the drug company took off half the molecule so they could patent it and charge $500 a pop, 10 pops recommended to start, likely once a month maintaneance thereafter).

Talking about consequences of poor medical advice is putting my head in a space I shouldn't be going in.  I know I haven't answered all your posts responding to mine and that's not fair, but sorry, stopping now.

[california boy]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sorry, I have got to stop talking about medical issues...given at the moment I am yet again having to subject myself to a drug that most likely won't work and has major side effects for six weeks in hopes that insurance will pay for a way too expensive treatment ('improved' ketamine, meaning the drug company took off half the molecule so they could patent it and charge $500 a pop, 10 pops recommended to start, likely once a month maintaneance thereafter).

Talking about consequences of poor medical advice is putting my head in a space I shouldn't be going in.  I know I haven't answered all your posts responding to mine and that's not fair, but sorry, stopping now.

I truly wish you the best.  I feel sad that you have to deal with this.  I had a little surgery last winter that took about 6 months to recover from.  I can't imagine what it would be like to have to organize your whole life around constant  medical issues. You know you are well loved on this board and I hope I speak for all of us when I offer my love and support.  

[longview]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I honestly don't know very much about being transgender.  But I do know that what these people go through in order to feel comfortable in their own bodies is one of the most difficult things I have ever seen anyone go through.  That drive to become who they feel they are inside is so great they are often willing to give up everything else in their lives for it.  For. heavens sake, I am not going to tell them they can't do it, nor am I willing to shun them.  Those are probably the two most cruel things I could possibly do.  I am just not that kind of person.

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I absolutely agree with you.  And when medical science can change things to give that person a better life, then I don't see why anyone could not support that.

Some commentators have asserted that the rate of unhappiness and suicide is much higher among homosexuals and transgenders than the general population.  Why should people resort to surgical mutilation and hormonal treatments and other measures to unnaturally "remake" their bodies to something they have mentally conceived as their "ideal" ?  Aren't they making their difficult situation more agonizing in the long run?  I would think adherence to the Proclamation is their best option in spite of their strong SSA or whatever vain imaginations (likely exacerbated by the tauntings of Lucifer).

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Sorry, I have got to stop talking about medical issues...given at the moment I am yet again having to subject myself to a drug that most likely won't work and has major side effects for six weeks in hopes that insurance will pay for a way too expensive treatment ('improved' ketamine, meaning the drug company took off half the molecule so they could patent it and charge $500 a pop, 10 pops recommended to start, likely once a month maintaneance thereafter).

Talking about consequences of poor medical advice is putting my head in a space I shouldn't be going in.  I know I haven't answered all your posts responding to mine and that's not fair, but sorry, stopping now.

I'm sorry if this question is rude Calm, hopefully you'll forgive me, why are you willing to try a drug like that, but not cannabis?

Edited October 5, 2019 by Tacenda

[california boy]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Some commentators have asserted that the rate of unhappiness and suicide is much higher among homosexuals and transgenders than the general population. 

And some commentators have asserted that many homosexuals and transgenders are kicked out of their churches, shunned by their family and former friends and are brutally  bullied.  I can't imaging why they have higher rates of unhappiness and suicide rates.  Certainly homosexuals don't have surgery.  Maybe it is not the surgery.  

1 hour ago, longview said:

Why should people resort to surgical mutilation and hormonal treatments and other measures to unnaturally "remake" their bodies to something they have mentally conceived as their "ideal" ?  Aren't they making their difficult situation more agonizing in the long run? 

Ah, because they have free agency?  Do you have this aversion to all measures to unnaturally "remake" their bodies?  The plastic surgery business in this country is $16 Billion.  Should the Church be kicking out all people who naturally "remake" their bodies?

1 hour ago, longview said:

I would think adherence to the Proclamation is their best option in spite of their strong SSA or whatever vain imaginations (likely exacerbated by the tauntings of Lucifer).

So what do you suggest?  Reparative therapy to get them to accept their gender?  Maybe electrical shock?  Maybe tell them to just get married?  Maybe just pray harder?  Maybe just having a priesthood blessing and a lot of faith will make these feelings go away.  Yeah that worked out so well for the homosexuals didn't it.  I would love to  hear the program you would put a transgender or a homosexual on that will make them "normal"

A proclamation isn't some kind of magic wand. And more important, what is the actual problem that yo u or the Church has on someone transitioning?

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Some commentators have asserted that the rate of unhappiness and suicide is much higher among homosexuals and transgenders than the general population.  Why should people resort to surgical mutilation and hormonal treatments and other measures to unnaturally "remake" their bodies to something they have mentally conceived as their "ideal" ?  Aren't they making their difficult situation more agonizing in the long run?  I would think adherence to the Proclamation is their best option in spite of their strong SSA or whatever vain imaginations (likely exacerbated by the tauntings of Lucifer).

I think it's because of the people that have reactions to them the way they do. On this thread, it was mentioned that Caitlyn Jenner formerly Bruce, just wanted attention!! That's just crazy because he had these feelings since childhood. A lifelong problem that he's heroically dealt with all of this time. But I guess when you get to a certain age you decide to not care what people think and just live your truth, which is what she finally did. And the rest of the world should just be damned.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 and just live your truth

I really hate that expression.  It's a meaningless expression to excuse self centered behavior.

Something is either true or not.

[longview]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

A proclamation isn't some kind of magic wand. And more important, what is the actual problem that yo u or the Church has on someone transitioning?

Not a magic wand but an outline of very basic truths for God's ultimate purpose.  Sure there are plenty of unpleasant and disconcerting situations in this Vale of Tears but following His directives offers the greatest avenue for peace out of all other options.  Transitioning most likely will NOT alleviate discontent and/or misery.  It most definitely should NOT be facilitated for under age children (especially for age 6 or younger).

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you think any person should use medical science to try and change physical problems that may occur at birth?  Isn't free agency the other guys plan?

I believe mitigating pain and improving quality of life are noble medical goals. I am just not convinced that this falls into that category. Does it actually help? This is also the destruction of functioning human organs. It seems to me to be equivalent to transabled people who intentionally disable parts of their body because that is “who they are”. Would you argue we should help them lop off their limbs?

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I believe mitigating pain and improving quality of life are noble medical goals. I am just not convinced that this falls into that category. Does it actually help? This is also the destruction of functioning human organs. It seems to me to be equivalent to transabled people who intentionally disable parts of their body because that is “who they are”. Would you argue we should help them lop off their limbs?

I remember learning about a woman who intentionally blinded herself because she felt she was supposed to be a part of the blind community.  

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I remember learning about a woman who intentionally blinded herself because she felt she was supposed to be a part of the blind community.  

Yeah, there are people who have cut off limbs, destroyed organs, made themselves blind or deaf, and even chosen to be wheelchair bound. This is my problem with gender transition. It is the deliberate destruction of parts of the human body in response to a psychological condition, whether pathological or not.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sorry if this question is rude Calm, hopefully you'll forgive me, why are you willing to try a drug like that, but not cannabis?

If you mean ketamine, it is because there is some solid research for its effectiveness for depression.  And I have access to doctors who supervise its use (take it in the office in fact).

At this point, I don't believe the research shows the amount of CBD you get in the legal stuff in Utah is effective for my issues.  When it becomes legal and therefore I have access to higher doses at affordable costs, I am planning on trying it under doctor's supervision.  Same with daughter.

I did try CBD oil for a few nights, it didn't help with sleep and might have made it worse, but I think it was just that I was expecting something.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you mean ketamine, it is because there is some solid research for its effectiveness for depression.  And I have access to doctors who supervise its use (take it in the office in fact).

At this point, I don't believe the research shows the amount of CBD you get in the legal stuff in Utah is effective for my issues.  When it becomes legal and therefore I have access to higher doses at affordable costs, I am planning on trying it under doctor's supervision.  Same with daughter.

I did try CBD oil for a few nights, it didn't help with sleep and might have made it worse, but I think it was just that I was expecting something.

Yeah, there are so many strains it will be nice when it's all figured out. I just worry about prescription drugs and their side affects.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, longview said:

Not a magic wand but an outline of very basic truths for God's ultimate purpose.  Sure there are plenty of unpleasant and disconcerting situations in this Vale of Tears but following His directives offers the greatest avenue for peace out of all other options.  Transitioning most likely will NOT alleviate discontent and/or misery.  It most definitely should NOT be facilitated for under age children (especially for age 6 or younger).

So let's see if I have this straight.  The Church excommunicates those that transition because they might not like the end results?  And you think this makes sense? Do you recommend the Church excommunicate anyone who makes a decision that might make them miserable?

Do you have any data that shows transgender people are more happy if they don't transition?  

I personally do not believe any minor should have any transition surgery.  I have no idea how I feel about drugs delaying puberty.  I have never had to deal with that nor do I know enough about the pros and cons and possible long term side effects of the issue.  What I do know is that this is a decision best left up to the child, their parents and their medical doctors. I am none of those.

Do you think you should be able to decide medical decisions of other parents children?

It is illegal to perform sex changing surgery before the minor reach the legal age of 18.

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by california boy