Abraham failed the test

[changed]

Read something interesting today on a Jewish board, googled around a little more, and sure enough, quite a few Jewish people believe Abraham failed the test.  

https://reformjudaism.org/blog/2013/09/03/akeidah-abraham-failed-gods-test-god-loved-him-anyway

https://www.google.com/amp/s/morethodoxy.org/2010/10/12/did-abraham-fail-his-final-test-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/amp/

etc.

I have thought similar things- that we are supposed to refuse to follow orders which go against our conscience, even if those orders come from apostles, prophets, or even G-d.  

We can discuss all the times where scriptures record people successfully arguing with G-d, or discuss what everyone here would or would NOT do if commanded by a church authority figure, or what constitutes "passing" the test etc etc.

G-d would cease to be G-d if not loving or just... we follow the way of love, justice, and mercy above all it seems...

Edited August 24, 2019 by changed

[Robert F. Smith]

On 8/23/2019 at 9:52 PM, changed said:

Read something interesting today on a Jewish board, googled around a little more, and sure enough, quite a few Jewish people believe Abraham failed the test.  

https://reformjudaism.org/blog/2013/09/03/akeidah-abraham-failed-gods-test-god-loved-him-anyway

https://www.google.com/amp/s/morethodoxy.org/2010/10/12/did-abraham-fail-his-final-test-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/amp/

.................

Of course.  However, that is in line with Jewish pilpul on any issue.  There is an infinite number of explanations possible, and the rabbis are always exploring other interpretations.  That does in no way indicate that they are correct, only that the discussion is endless.  The Binding of Isaac is a key to understanding the New Testament, where Jesus is also the Only Son (same phrase used of Isaac), and his Father sacrifices him as the Lamb of God.  Why would any father allow his son to be killed on an altar?  Moreover, the faith of Abraham in God was proven when, at the last moment, a ram in a thicket was provided as a sacrifice.  Again, Jesus as the Substitute.  See William Stegner, Narrative Theology in Early Jewish Christianity, 13-31; H. Neil Richardson, "The Old Testament Background of Jesus as Begotten of God," Bible Review, 2/3 (Fall 1986):22-27. 

Quote

I have thought similar things- that we are supposed to refuse to follow orders which go against our conscience, even if those orders come from apostles, prophets, or even G-d.  

Most people have great difficulty not obeying authority -- whether it be a police officer, a military leader in combat, or a religious leader -- and we can be brutalized if we hesitate to obey sometimes.  On other occasions, we may need to think about whether to obey or not.  A matter of conscience perhaps.  You don't have to immediately obey a religious leader.  Usually one has plenty of time to consider the options, to fast & pray about it.  Or one can simply say NO to an ecclesiastical leader.  As Jiminy Cricket said:  "Always let your conscience be your guide."  What's wrong with that?

On the other hand, what would you do if God told you to do something you didn't want to do?  Would you simply assume that you had lost your mind and were experiencing a delusion?  Would you negotiate with God about it?

Quote

We can discuss all the times where scriptures record people successfully arguing with G-d, or discuss what everyone here would or would NOT do if commanded by a church authority figure, or what constitutes "passing" the test etc etc.

G-d would cease to be G-d if not loving or just... we follow the way of love, justice, and mercy above all it seems...

You might want to read the OT a bit to discover just how loving God is.  I knew an old Methodist minister who hated the OT, and loved the NT.  The OT was simply too violent for him.  What do you suppose he had in mind?

Edited August 29, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

8 hours ago, changed said:

I have thought similar things- that we are supposed to refuse to follow orders which go against our conscience, even if those orders come from apostles, prophets, or even G-d.  

I don't know if we're "supposed" to, but we certainly do.

If Abraham did fail the test, he was evidently still redeemed -- do the same, quite a few Jewish people believe that?

[longview]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

On the other hand, what would you do if God told you to do something you didn't want to do?  Would you simply assume that you had lost your mind and were experiencing a delusion?  Would you negotiate with God about it?

What Jonah did.  He escaped in the opposite direction.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, longview said:

What Jonah did.  He escaped in the opposite direction.

He didn’t escape for long.  

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, longview said:

What Jonah did.  He escaped in the opposite direction.

Yeh, and then he found himself sitting under a tree angry that God had pulled the rug out from under him -- he went to all the trouble to pronounce destruction on Nineveh, and then God decided not to follow through.  How can any self-respecting prophet take being made a fool of?

[longview]

Abraham dedicated his entire being to seeking after God.  He was willing to give up all the pleasures of earth to have fellowship with Him.  He entered into an amazing series of covenants, some of them very far fetched and astonishing.  He was told he and  Sarah would bear a child of the covenant, even though they were already dried up from advanced old age.  His faith was tested to the extreme in holding fast to what was revealed to him.

Covenant keeping church members are in the same position.  We are told by Jesus that we will inherit all that the Father hath, to be like Him.  Ultimately (in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom) we will be afforded the opportunity to recruit intelligences to become spirit children and enter into a new Plan of Happiness (a position of utmost trust).  For most (if not all) it is very difficult to comprehend.  But we can do it by choosing God's Directives and relying on the Atonement to make it all the way there.  Everyone from the least to the greatest has this potential.  We just have to be tested, tried and refined.

[changed]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't know if we're "supposed" to, but we certainly do.

If Abraham did fail the test, he was evidently still redeemed -- do the same, quite a few Jewish people believe that?

I really do think we are supposed to.  A good teacher challenges their students to think and act for themselves by taking away the student's dependence on their teacher.

3 hours ago, longview said:

What Jonah did.  He escaped in the opposite direction.

Abraham argued with God over Sodom (Gen 18: 16-32), Moses argued with God (see Ex 32:9-14), consider Mary & Jesus - from scolding him for not keeping up with the group when young, to asking for help at the wedding (John 2:1-12), there is Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:1-11),  most famous people in the scriptures have - perhaps argument is not the best word? - but feel free to battle it out a little, feel free to disagree, feel free to suggest alternative courses etc. etc. 

33 minutes ago, longview said:

Abraham dedicated his entire being to seeking after God.  He was willing to give up all the pleasures of earth to have fellowship with Him.  He entered into an amazing series of covenants, some of them very far fetched and astonishing.  He was told he and  Sarah would bear a child of the covenant, even though they were already dried up from advanced old age.  His faith was tested to the extreme in holding fast to what was revealed to him.

Covenant keeping church members are in the same position.  We are told by Jesus that we will inherit all that the Father hath, to be like Him.  Ultimately (in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom) we will be afforded the opportunity to recruit intelligences to become spirit children and enter into a new Plan of Happiness (a position of utmost trust).  For most (if not all) it is very difficult to comprehend.  But we can do it by choosing God's Directives and relying on the Atonement to make it all the way there.  Everyone from the least to the greatest has this potential.  We just have to be tested, tried and refined.

So - what is your interpretation of Abraham not speaking to God after the ordeal with Isaac?  That he was only talking with Angels afterwards, while before he talked directly to God?  Abraham is part of many religious traditions - Christian, Jewish, Muslim, all with slight variations on the story, but variations which create quite large differences in the lessons learned.  

I agree that Sarah should have been involved in the discussion, that there should have been at least as much of a discussion as there was around Sodom, that Abraham's actions were not the best example of what to do... 

[changed]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course.  However, that is in line with Jewish pilpul on any issue.  There are an infinite number of explanations possible, and the rabbis are always exploring other interpretations. 

Well, they are the chosen people, and the scriptures are written with quite a bit of ambiguity so I guess G-d enjoys and is encouraging "exploring other interpretations" as part of the game.  (Otherwise, it would be set up this way, right?)  

Faith vs. asking until there is enough information that you agree with and understand it... but then, it is mis-placed faith if the info isn't solid, right?

Edited August 24, 2019 by changed

[Burnside]

15 hours ago, changed said:

Read something interesting today on a Jewish board, googled around a little more, and sure enough, quite a few Jewish people believe Abraham failed the test.  

https://reformjudaism.org/blog/2013/09/03/akeidah-abraham-failed-gods-test-god-loved-him-anyway

https://www.google.com/amp/s/morethodoxy.org/2010/10/12/did-abraham-fail-his-final-test-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/amp/

etc.

I have thought similar things- that we are supposed to refuse to follow orders which go against our conscience, even if those orders come from apostles, prophets, or even G-d.  

We can discuss all the times where scriptures record people successfully arguing with G-d, or discuss what everyone here would or would NOT do if commanded by a church authority figure, or what constitutes "passing" the test etc etc.

G-d would cease to be G-d if not loving or just... we follow the way of love, justice, and mercy above all it seems...

Failed? What’s the definition of failure?

D&C 101:4; 137:5; 124:19

[Bernard Gui]

According to WWI British poet Wilfred Owen, Abraham failed the test in another way....

The Parable of the old Man and the Young

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

 

But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[changed]

1 hour ago, Burnside said:

Failed? What’s the definition of failure?

D&C 101:4; 137:5; 124:19

Quite honestly, I suppose, aside from Jesus, there is no perfect person or perfect way of doing anything in this imperfect world so.... 

[changed]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to WWI British poet Wilfred Owen, Abraham failed the test in another way....

The Parable of the old Man and the Young

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

 

But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

If G-d commanded it, and it was just a lowly angel who tried to stop him... should he follow the angel or G-d?  

and how does one really know for certain where the commands come from - could be some deceptive angel of light, so...

Edited August 24, 2019 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, changed said:

If G-d commanded it, and it was just a lowly angel who tried to stop him... should he follow the angel or G-d?  

and how does one really know for certain where the commands come from - could be some deceptive angel of light, so...

Yep. Perhaps having had a few previous experiences with God  would prove helpful. Or, if one knows God and angels, the words of the angel might bear some weight. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[longview]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yep. Perhaps having had a few previous experiences with God  would prove helpful. Or, if one knows God and angels, the words of the angel might bear some weight. 

Most likely Abraham had a few run ins with demonic spirits and learned how to distinguish true messengers from deceivers.  Adam was given the means of verifying emissaries.  Moses was able to see the difference in glory of the Son of God and Satan.

[changed]

54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yep. Perhaps having had a few previous experiences with God  would prove helpful. ...

 

Well, considering all the different religious denominations and definitions of G-d now, and knowing spirits/angels are just people who have died - the whole thing is sounding like heaven is just a larger replica of earth - with a bunch of different leaders all claiming to be the best, with their followers in heaven supporting anyone who happens to follow on earth...  can't trust any "spiritual" guidance any more than you can trust some random person on the street talking to you it seems.  

Everyone claims to be spiritually led, one to do this, one to do that - and then people like Abraham glorify things like killing their own son because... a voice whispered to them?  and what of Sarah??  are these really examples we are supposed to think well of and follow?  

the only thing I can agree with following - if there is a G-d of love and light, then great ... this kill your son stuff, just can't see it.

[let’s roll]

25 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Well, considering all the different religious denominations and definitions of G-d now, and knowing spirits/angels are just people who have died - the whole thing is sounding like heaven is just a larger replica of earth - with a bunch of different leaders all claiming to be the best, with their followers in heaven supporting anyone who happens to follow on earth...  can't trust any "spiritual" guidance any more than you can trust some random person on the street talking to you it seems.  

Everyone claims to be spiritually led, one to do this, one to do that - and then people like Abraham glorify things like killing their own son because... a voice whispered to them?  and what of Sarah??  are these really examples we are supposed to think well of and follow?  

the only thing I can agree with following - if there is a G-d of love and light, then great ... this kill your son stuff, just can't see it.

Well God sacrificed His Son...so there’s that precedent.  

And if the purpose of mortality is to allow us to decide if we’re willing to join God in His work, then I suppose Abraham’s experience made the consequences of that decision clear...God needs to do what He needs to do.  The flood, for example killed a lot more of our loving and just God’s children than Abraham was asked to kill, babies included.

A couple of other thoughts.  Trying to understand an omniscient God using our finite wisdom and knowledge seems a fool’s errand, especially when God has offered to share with us His wisdom and, ultimately, all that He has.  We can choose to accept, or pass on, His invitation.

Finally, I’d invite you to consider that because Abraham had reached the point in his spiritual development where he was ready to be asked the ultimate question, he had long since, through his consistent communion with God, understood how to recognize Divine direction.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, changed said:

Well, they are the chosen people, and the scriptures are written with quite a bit of ambiguity so I guess G-d enjoys and is encouraging "exploring other interpretations" as part of the game.  (Otherwise, it would be set up this way, right?)  

Faith vs. asking until there is enough information that you agree with and understand it... but then, it is mis-placed faith if the info isn't solid, right?

Hard to tell.  Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

[CV75]

6 hours ago, changed said:

I really do think we are supposed to.  A good teacher challenges their students to think and act for themselves by taking away the student's dependence on their teacher.

Great. After becoming independent from their schoolmaster, how do those same, quite-a-few Jewish people believe that Abraham was redeemed?

[echelon]

What it death to God anyway?  To him we are the same intelligence, with or without a body so I think to order the death of others is a small thing for Him. 

If Abraham didn't fail the test, the tribes of Israel certainly have when they were ordered to wipe out settlements when inhabiting the promised land.  When I taught the Old Testament in Sunday School I was bothered by the manual criticizing Israel for not following the commandment and not consider for discussion the emotional turmoil the soldiers would have to go through to carry it out when killing other people's children.  In the end, Jesus allowed the people left alive to continue living in cohabitation with the tribes of Israel. Whether that was a win for the people of Israel who didn't want to go against their conscience in all that killing or simply due to laziness of the people to continue the campaign,  I don't know.

[changed]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to WWI ...

Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

I had to read this again - the ram of pride.... "the glory be thine..."  Is Abraham glorified?  Was it prideful of Abraham to so willingly sacrifice his son?  Ask someone to do something hard and they quickly agree - enjoy showing off what hard thing they can do.... Why did Abraham faulter when it came to Sodom but not with his own son?  More concerned with his reputation among strangers?

[changed]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Great. After becoming independent from their schoolmaster, how do those same, quite-a-few Jewish people believe that Abraham was redeemed?

Independent of the schoolmaster.... For many Jews,  I think, halacha trumps G-d’s command, so an observant Jew would not be permitted to sacrifice their child or commit any other sin even if they were sure it was the command of G-d

... the law, principles, are what save.

[changed]

1 hour ago, echelon said:

What it death to God anyway?  To him we are the same intelligence, with or without a body so I think to order the death of others is a small thing for Him. 

If Abraham didn't fail the test, the tribes of Israel certainly have when they were ordered to wipe out settlements when inhabiting the promised land.  When I taught the Old Testament in Sunday School I was bothered by the manual criticizing Israel for not following the commandment and not consider for discussion the emotional turmoil the soldiers would have to go through to carry it out when killing other people's children.  In the end, Jesus allowed the people left alive to continue living in cohabitation with the tribes of Israel. Whether that was a win for the people of Israel who didn't want to go against their conscience in all that killing or simply due to laziness of the people to continue the campaign,  I don't know.

Abraham was distraught over Ishmael, but ready to kill Isaac... who did Abraham love?  ..."the one you love..."   

Killing children is wrong, and I hope no one would follow any commands to kill kids.  

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, changed said:

Abraham was distraught over Ishmael, but ready to kill Isaac... who did Abraham love?  ..."the one you love..."   

Killing children is wrong, and I hope no one would follow any commands to kill kids.  

You do realize Isaac was likely in his 30's or older when this happened?

[Kevin Christensen]

A verse typically neglected in considering the story of Abraham and Isaac.

And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ***; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you.

Gen. 22:5.

Nibley pointed out in Improvement Era series that stories of substitute sacrifice run like a red thread throughout Abraham's life, not all of which are included in Genesis.  Abraham's father intended to sacrifice him.  A substitute was provided.  Both the Pseudo Philo and our Book of Abraham tell of Abraham on the altar, and the sacrificing priests themselves becoming the substitute.  Sarah was on the lion couch twice, both times, the King and Pharoh being smitten.

So given what Abraham had experienced, and given that he said that he and the lad would go and worship and come again, the reason that Abraham had faith is that Abraham's life experience had uniquely prepared him for what was about to happen. 

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited August 25, 2019 by Kevin Christensen