Should Church Leaders Report Child Abuse When Confessed?

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not entirely. I meant then when there is an initial removal there is almost always abuse found. If there is no initial removal before the investigation then there is unlikely to be one. I have worked about a half dozen cases as a volunteer (meaning read the whole case history). In every single one there were multiple previous CPS investigations. I am told that is not an outlier. If there is removal most of the time it is because they are a “frequent flyer”.

My brother was removed by CPS (and about 10 police officers) . They kept him for about 3 days and then returned him without any charges or further action. It was one of the most  traumatic experience of my life.  It was years before our family could ever trust a police officer again. (I still would never let one in my house, they are like vampires, they get power over you if you invite them in your house).

This all happened because CPS  were hunting for abuse victims in my school. They would go to each class and ask if anyone's parents had been mean to them. My brother had just had a fight with my mom and raised his hand. I remember our family telling us where to hide from the police.  Lawyers were telling my parents to not try to  cause any trouble for  CPS until my brother was returned, because they would  hold my brother hostage and "lose" Him in the system.

This was thirty years ago, so I hope things have gotten better since.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not entirely. I meant then when there is an initial removal there is almost always abuse found. If there is no initial removal before the investigation then there is unlikely to be one. I have worked about a half dozen cases as a volunteer (meaning read the whole case history). In every single one there were multiple previous CPS investigations. I am told that is not an outlier. If there is removal most of the time it is because they are a “frequent flyer”.

I am assuming by removal you mean putting into foster care?

In the case of my nephew, there had been no previous investigation, but he was left in hospital care so perhaps isolated from parents is a better word than removed. He might have been kept there as long while blood tests were processed to ensure there was no underlying causes (he was bruised all over from being beaten by babysitter, can’t remember exactly what she used, young teenager).

This was also 30 so years ago, so things may have changed. I should ask my friends who are nurses and doctors what happens if they report abuse. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Calm

[thatjimguy]

A lot of this seems to be talking about what is legal and lawful, not about what is right. I know we want to protect this idea of priest/penitent privilegie, but what good is it if it harms people?

People can repent in a jail cell. As sinners, we are to make restitution for what we have done, if we can. Some crimes are just paid for by time in jail. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

This was thirty years ago, so I hope things have gotten better since.

We recently secured a committee inquiry into a matter in the jurisdiction where I live. Mother with five children had all five removed and placed in various foster placements and residential care. I'm not even sure how she came to their attention, but a couple of barristers took on her case pro bono. It took the legal team five years and about $200,000 to pursue the matter all the way to the final court of appeal, but magistrates completely reversed the decision on the basis that the original evidence wasn't accurate.

I wish I were making the next part up, but within weeks, our care and protection service had taken the matter back to the Children's Court and presented the very evidence that had been thrown out earlier. Thankfully, they were just laughed at.

Meanwhile, these five kids had been separated from the mother for five years. The eldest, a girl, had been in four different foster homes in the first ten months and then ended up in a residential care home, where she was repeatedly assaulted by the other kids. As one of the barristers said to me, if the mum had been gaoled for five years because of false evidence, everyone would be screaming about the injustice, but separating her from her five kids for the same length of time by removing them into the care system simply doesn't show up on the radars of the 'protect children at all costs' crowd. It's a nightmare. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, thatjimguy said:

A lot of this seems to be talking about what is legal and lawful, not about what is right. I know we want to protect this idea of priest/penitent privilegie, but what good is it if it harms people?

This feels to me like you've been reading a completely different thread or skipping right over certain posts. My sole motivation is what is good for people, i.e. 'right'. Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to gin up mass indignation in favour of 'solutions' that solid evidence suggests may in many, many cases be harmful.

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

A lot of this seems to be talking about what is legal and lawful, not about what is right. I know we want to protect this idea of priest/penitent privilegie, but what good is it if it harms people?

People can repent in a jail cell. As sinners, we are to make restitution for what we have done, if we can. Some crimes are just paid for by time in jail. 

I agree.  But sometimes (as shown by some examples in this thread), it's not always black and white.

I definitely believe that we always need to protect the victim (or alleged victim) and not be as concerned about the feelings or embarrassment that reporting the abuse may cause the accused or the abuser.  That's much simpler and easier to do (and follow the church policy and laws), when the abuse is reported by the person being harmed or someone they have told about the abuse.  Then the church leader is not bound by the priest/penitent privilege and his only concern at that point should be protecting the victim and any potential future victims, IMO.  I feel this is more common than the person who is currently abusing someone coming in and reporting themselves.

When it gets tricky is when it's the abuser who is doing to confessing.  That is where the priest/penitent privilege is in place....unless it's ongoing abuse or anyone is in immediate danger (then they can report it).  I feel that's fair.  All confessed abuse that I have personally been involved in happened years ago and was no longer taking place.  I have mixed feelings about the privilege at that point, but understand it's the law.  I do believe that there should be consequences for anyone who abuses another, but also know those don't always need to be through legal channels.  I am much more concerned about the healing and well being of the victim though.  Those are my feelings and others may disagree....I realize this can be a very personal discussion for many on here and I think for the most part, this has been a respectful and helpful discussion.

Edited July 28, 2019 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Danzo said:

My brother was removed by CPS (and about 10 police officers) . They kept him for about 3 days and then returned him without any charges or further action. It was one of the most  traumatic experience of my life.  It was years before our family could ever trust a police officer again. (I still would never let one in my house, they are like vampires, they get power over you if you invite them in your house).

This all happened because CPS  were hunting for abuse victims in my school. They would go to each class and ask if anyone's parents had been mean to them. My brother had just had a fight with my mom and raised his hand. I remember our family telling us where to hide from the police.  Lawyers were telling my parents to not try to  cause any trouble for  CPS until my brother was returned, because they would  hold my brother hostage and "lose" Him in the system.

This was thirty years ago, so I hope things have gotten better since.

Sorry for what your family went through. I don't understand the stupidity of those folks, don't the CPS have to have some training, for crying out loud. And the part where there was danger of your brother being lost in the system, made me sick to my stomach. 

[Tacenda]

Probably won't sit well with most of you, Sam Young's press conference, but is it needed? ETA: If you want to zero in on the gist, go to mark 54:00.

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 7/27/2019 at 2:59 AM, ALarson said:

How did you handle this after the interview?  I know it's tough because it was done in confidence....but were you still closely in contact with them after this?

It wasn't an interview; we were just in the kitchen together one evening at the end of a mutual activity. I was then Young Men president and therefore not 'clergy', which is why he asked. I'm not interested in sharing details, to be honest, but our bishop and I and some others in the ward have spent hundreds of hours working with this young man and his entire family. The good news is that I am, quite literally, working with him this morning: as professional colleagues in the same office.

Working with this family has taken not just time but patience and love and faith and revelation. Thankfully, as consecrated Saints, that's precisely what we do, over and over again, until people are all OK. Which is why I have a hard time feeling anything other than disgust for the self-aggrandising and attention-seeking antics of someone like Sam Young, who peddles a simplistic and often misinformed narrative intentionally designed to stir people up in anger against tens of thousands of faithful Saints who daily work at the coalface on this issue, just so that he can paint himself as some kind of flag-waving hero. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Danzo said:

My brother was removed by CPS (and about 10 police officers) . They kept him for about 3 days and then returned him without any charges or further action. It was one of the most  traumatic experience of my life.  It was years before our family could ever trust a police officer again. (I still would never let one in my house, they are like vampires, they get power over you if you invite them in your house).

This all happened because CPS  were hunting for abuse victims in my school. They would go to each class and ask if anyone's parents had been mean to them. My brother had just had a fight with my mom and raised his hand. I remember our family telling us where to hide from the police.  Lawyers were telling my parents to not try to  cause any trouble for  CPS until my brother was returned, because they would  hold my brother hostage and "lose" Him in the system.

This was thirty years ago, so I hope things have gotten better since.

Yeah, I think it is better now in most areas though there are still horror stories.

The biggest improvement is my opinion are child interviews. Too often in the past children were asked leading questions that led to incorrect conclusions. It is not fixed but improved interview techniques by trained professionals help.

The 80s “the police are your friends” schtick I got in school was a bad idea. Be polite but defend your rights and consent to nothing. If I ever have children I plan to teach them do not talk to police until a parent is there.

In a better society this video would be required viewing in Middle and High School:

 

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We recently secured a committee inquiry into a matter in the jurisdiction where I live. Mother with five children had all five removed and placed in various foster placements and residential care. I'm not even sure how she came to their attention, but a couple of barristers took on her case pro bono. It took the legal team five years and about $200,000 to pursue the matter all the way to the final court of appeal, but magistrates completely reversed the decision on the basis that the original evidence wasn't accurate.

I wish I were making the next part up, but within weeks, our care and protection service had taken the matter back to the Children's Court and presented the very evidence that had been thrown out earlier. Thankfully, they were just laughed at.

Meanwhile, these five kids had been separated from the mother for five years. The eldest, a girl, had been in four different foster homes in the first ten months and then ended up in a residential care home, where she was repeatedly assaulted by the other kids. As one of the barristers said to me, if the mum had been gaoled for five years because of false evidence, everyone would be screaming about the injustice, but separating her from her five kids for the same length of time by removing them into the care system simply doesn't show up on the radars of the 'protect children at all costs' crowd. It's a nightmare. 

Yeah, and one of the tragedies of the system is that those who are caught up in it are also the least likely to have the resources to fight in it because the poor are most often caught abusing or neglecting their kids (it is less clear whether they are more likely to abuse).

I am surprised. Did they take parental rights and then it was reversed? It is just odd that they were in the system for five years. That is a long case.

Foster care is a crapshoot. Ranges from people in it for the money to suburbanites trying to help who shuttle kids off regularly if they are troubled to heroes who are able to deal with troubled kids. There are some good books by foster parents if you are interested. I wanted to foster a teen or two. Get some kids who just need a stable  home through high school until they age out. Just not sure if I could work it with my schedule or cope with kids on my own. Still mulling it over. If I ever marry and she is up for it I hope one day to make it happen.

[ALarson]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It wasn't an interview; we were just in the kitchen together one evening at the end of a mutual activity. I was then Young Men president and therefore not 'clergy', which is why he asked. I'm not interested in sharing details, to be honest, but our bishop and I and some others in the ward have spent hundreds of hours working with this young man and his entire family. The good news is that I am, quite literally, working with him this morning: as professional colleagues in the same office.

That's great to hear....he's lucky to have you in his life and I can tell how much you care.  Thanks for sharing the update.

Edited July 29, 2019 by ALarson

[smac97]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It wasn't an interview; we were just in the kitchen together one evening at the end of a mutual activity. I was then Young Men president and therefore not 'clergy', which is why he asked. I'm not interested in sharing details, to be honest, but our bishop and I and some others in the ward have spent hundreds of hours working with this young man and his entire family. The good news is that I am, quite literally, working with him this morning: as professional colleagues in the same office.

Glad to hear it.

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Working with this family has taken not just time but patience and love and faith and revelation. Thankfully, as consecrated Saints, that's precisely what we do, over and over again, until people are all OK. Which is why I have a hard time feeling anything other than disgust for the self-aggrandising and attention-seeking antics of someone like Sam Young, who peddles a simplistic and often misinformed narrative intentionally designed to stir people up in anger against tens of thousands of faithful Saints who daily work at the coalface on this issue, just so that he can paint himself as some kind of flag-waving hero. 

I agree with your sentiments.  Unfortunately, Sam Young is at it again.  See here.

Also, "work at the coalface" is a very cool phrase.  I surmised what it meant, but had to look it up to confirm.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Danzo]

On 7/28/2019 at 8:15 AM, Tacenda said:

Sorry for what your family went through. I don't understand the stupidity of those folks, don't the CPS have to have some training, for crying out loud. And the part where there was danger of your brother being lost in the system, made me sick to my stomach. 

 

The problem with CPS is that they are made up of  humans.  Since they are humans, they have a tendency to be lazy. They tend to enjoy power. They don't want to own up to their mistakes, they would rather cover them up.  They have limited knowledge.  They can see the motes in other people's eyes, but have a hard time seeing the beams in their own eyes.  They are motivated by the fact that their cause is just and righteous and other people just don't understand or are not as smart as they are.

It is the same problem with  just about every other system made up of humans. 

CPS can be a bit worse since everything they do is to "protect the children".   They don't seem to have as much oversite and scrutiny as some of the other organizations.  Since their cause is righteous, they can do no harm in their own eyes.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

The problem with CPS is that they are made up of  humans.  Since they are humans, they have a tendency to be lazy. They tend to enjoy power. They don't want to own up to their mistakes, they would rather cover them up.  They have limited knowledge.  They can see the motes in other people's eyes, but have a hard time seeing the beams in their own eyes.  They are motivated by the fact that their cause is just and righteous and other people just don't understand or are not as smart as they are.

It is the same problem with  just about every other system made up of humans. 

CPS can be a bit worse since everything they do is to "protect the children".   They don't seem to have as much oversite and scrutiny as some of the other organizations.  Since their cause is righteous, they can do no harm in their own eyes.

Though this is correct there is more to it. CPS worker pay is low and caseload is high. CPS workers could probably do a good job if they 3 to 6 cases at a time but in my area they more often have 30 and we are not an isolated situation. It is bad almost everywhere. Legislators with the best of intentions add more regulations and that almost always leads to more paperwork. The case files I read when I got a new case were at least 100 pages long and more often around 200 and this was when the case was only a month or two old. With all the paperwork and reports on top of court preparation and time in the courtroom CPS workers rarely have time to actually see the kids they are responsible for let alone observe parent visits, seek out resources to help their kids, talk to foster parents, and all the stuff they need to do. CPS workers are often stressed and that does not lead to quality decision making even if intentions are good. It is like expecting an Amazon warehouse worker to be conscientious while desperately trying to meet their quota.

The low pay and frantic workplace schedule (vacations are not common) lead to burnout. The turnover is incredible meaning that veterans to mentor new workers are rare and most CPS workers are inexperienced. Those who stay are either people really dedicated to the work, masochists who enjoy suffering, or people with the right qualifications who are unable to get a job anywhere else (i.e. people not good at jobs in general). People pay lip service to wanting a quality system but they are not willing to pay for it.

[smac97]

On 7/28/2019 at 9:15 AM, Tacenda said:

Sorry for what your family went through. I don't understand the stupidity of those folks, don't the CPS have to have some training, for crying out loud.

Yes, but they are human and can make mistakes.  So, for that matter, do therapists.  And law enforcement.  And teachers.  And parents.

All of these people can make mistakes in addressing allegations of sexual abuse.  All of these people can (and some do) even commit grave wrongs against children.  But only bishops in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are being singled out as presumptive perverts and child molesters.

On 7/28/2019 at 9:15 AM, Tacenda said:

And the part where there was danger of your brother being lost in the system, made me sick to my stomach. 

Government bureaucracies are, in the aggregate, reliably inept at accomplishing moderate-to-difficult tasks.  And then there is always the risk of corruption and/or abuse of power.

I worked on a case some years ago involving three small children.  DCFS acted pretty horribly, and ended up doing a lot of damage to the relationship between the father and the children.

-Smac

[USU78]

55 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Government bureaucracies are, in the aggregate, reliably inept at accomplishing moderate-to-difficult tasks.  And then there is always the risk of corruption and/or abuse of power.

Also sprach Jefferson.