Interesting trek change

[rongo]

My former stake is holding their trek in December (in the Sonoran Desert near the Mormon Battalion camp site on the Butterfield Stake Route). My daughter and son (junior and freshman) will be participating in it. My wife and I were surprised to read the instructions sent to parents. No pioneer gear/wear. No women's pull. No dolls named after dead ancestors. No people dressed in white representing angels. Etc.

I guess my advice as far as historical accuracy and the Church's dos and don'ts was heeded after all, "post-humously," after we moved.  I had sent the stake leaders links to the Church's instructions in pointing out "sacred cows" that many stakes continue to disregard. 

The focus is going to be on the Restoration instead of handcart companies, but there will still be some necessary carting to bring supplies. It is essentially much more a co-ed extended camp out, with kids still divvied up into "families," and with lots of faith-building activities, campfires, etc.

[Anijen]

My children loved participating in these [pioneer treks]. The only problem I had was most of these pioneer treks have a time were the men leave (usually at a difficult place on the journey) to simulate the men being recruited for the "Mormon Battalion." However, the history is being (probably unknowingly) misrepresented here. the handcarts starts in 1856, while the Mormon Battalion was ten years earlier (1846). The Hand Cart Pioneers never had to deal with that. If you want correct history perhaps that should be mentioned.

[Jeanne]

I have really no way to understand treks and I didn't go on one..nor did my children...but this sounds depressing.  What am I missing here from members pov?

[Anijen]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have really no way to understand treks and I didn't go on one..nor did my children...but this sounds depressing.  What am I missing here from members pov?

Just  a way to personally experience some of the things the pioneers went through. It helps connect our youth with church history, gain a greater appreciation for their sacrifices, recognize the brilliant solution Brigham Young and others used to help solve a fast growing migration of Saints, and helps to understand and be awe struck at the organizational skills the church used in getting Saints from the UK to America to SLC. Pretty amazing feat, if you ask me.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have really no way to understand treks and I didn't go on one..nor did my children...but this sounds depressing.  What am I missing here from members pov?

Think of it as a mobile camp with a historical and spiritual theme.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

17 hours ago, rongo said:

I guess my advice as far as historical accuracy and the Church's dos and don'ts was heeded after all, "post-humously," after we moved.  I had sent the stake leaders links to the Church's instructions in pointing out "sacred cows" that many stakes continue to disregard. 

Our stake is going to do one of these next summer. Could you send me those links? 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/20/2018 at 12:40 PM, rongo said:

My former stake is holding their trek in December (in the Sonoran Desert near the Mormon Battalion camp site on the Butterfield Stake Route). My daughter and son (junior and freshman) will be participating in it. My wife and I were surprised to read the instructions sent to parents. No pioneer gear/wear. No women's pull. No dolls named after dead ancestors. No people dressed in white representing angels. Etc.

I guess my advice as far as historical accuracy and the Church's dos and don'ts was heeded after all, "post-humously," after we moved.  I had sent the stake leaders links to the Church's instructions in pointing out "sacred cows" that many stakes continue to disregard. 

The focus is going to be on the Restoration instead of handcart companies, but there will still be some necessary carting to bring supplies. It is essentially much more a co-ed extended camp out, with kids still divvied up into "families," and with lots of faith-building activities, campfires, etc.

What you describe sounds like a fine thing, but it is not an observance of the handcart experience. 

[changed]

Sounds like the church is trying to distance itself from its history.

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

Sounds like the church is trying to distance itself from its history.

Or at least make sure any future re-enactments are more accurate.

Edited October 21, 2018 by JulieM

[CV75]

On 10/20/2018 at 2:40 PM, rongo said:

My former stake is holding their trek in December (in the Sonoran Desert near the Mormon Battalion camp site on the Butterfield Stake Route). My daughter and son (junior and freshman) will be participating in it. My wife and I were surprised to read the instructions sent to parents. No pioneer gear/wear. No women's pull. No dolls named after dead ancestors. No people dressed in white representing angels. Etc.

I guess my advice as far as historical accuracy and the Church's dos and don'ts was heeded after all, "post-humously," after we moved.  I had sent the stake leaders links to the Church's instructions in pointing out "sacred cows" that many stakes continue to disregard. 

The focus is going to be on the Restoration instead of handcart companies, but there will still be some necessary carting to bring supplies. It is essentially much more a co-ed extended camp out, with kids still divvied up into "families," and with lots of faith-building activities, campfires, etc.

I presume this is still up-to-date in the event the stake wishes to conduct a handcart-themed trek: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71187-interesting-trek-change/?_fromLogin=1 This guidance would seem appropriate for other variations. I'd like to see one about the Exodus, or Joseph Smith's travels between VT, NY and PA during those early years -- maybe even expand it to OH, MO and IL (let's throw in Zion's Camp!). Or how about President Hinkley's travels across the globe?

@Calm this might be a good start, though other links are embedded in this document and elsewhere on lds.org. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Sounds like the church is trying to distance itself from its history.

I can’t figure out why you would say that. 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t figure out why you would say that. 

There's been some who feel there are difficult or troubling issues surrounding the handcart usage (or how they came about).  It's been awhile since I've read about it, but I do know that I've heard some comments regarding this when talking about wanting to reenact this part of our history.  I know there are many great faith promoting stories surrounding it as well....but this may be what changed is referring to (wanting to forget about or downplay some of the troubling details, if true).

Edited October 22, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, ALarson said:

There's been some who feel there are difficult or troubling issues surrounding the handcart usage (or how they came about).  It's been awhile since I've read about it, but I do know that I've heard some comments regarding this when talking about wanting to reenact this part of our history.  I know there are many great faith promoting stories surrounding it as well....but this may be what changed is referring to (wanting to forget about or downplay some of the troubling details, if true).

I’ve heard the late Bill Hartley, one of the foremost experts on the Mormon Trail, talk about this.

The handcart chapter in Church history lasted only about four years before this means of travel was rendered obsolete, first by the down-and-back wagon expeditions and ultimately by the completion of the transcontinental railroad in 1869. 

Hartley said that, by-and-large, the handcart experiment was successful. Of the 10 handcart companies, only the Willey and Martin companies could be considered failures, and they appear to be anomalies due to extraordinary circumstances. The rest accomplished the purpose for which they were intended: to get more people overland to the Salt Lake Valley at minimal expense. 

The handcart saga does tend to get disproportionate attention in our collective consciousness regarding the Utah pioneer experience. It didn’t even begin until a decade after the Nauvoo/Winter Quarters exodus, and, as I said, it only lasted four years. The vast majority of our forebears traveled by ox train and, ultimately, by railroad. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve heard the late Bill Hartley, one of the foremost experts on the Mormon Trail, talk about this.

The handcart chapter in Church history lasted only about four years before it was rendered obsolete, first by the down-and-back wagon expeditions and ultimately by the completion of the transcontinental railroad in 1869. 

Hartley said that, by-and-large, the handcart experiment was successful. Of the 10 handcart companies, only the Willey and Martin companies could be considered failures, and they appear to be anomalies due to extraordinary circumstances. The rest accomplished the purpose for which they were intended: to get more people overland to the Salt Lake Valley at minimal expense. 

The handcart saga does tend to get disproportionate attention in our collective consciousness regarding the Utah pioneer experience. It didn’t even until a decade after the Nauvoo-Winter Quarters exodus, and, as I said, it only lasted four years. The vast majority of our forebears traveled by ox train and, ultimately, by railroad. 

IMO, there were definitely some poor choices made and bad judgement used  (especially with the one party that left so late).  It honestly does not seem that inspired to me (the entire usage of the handcarts), but I'm also very touched and moved by many of the stories told by the obedient and trusting saints who suffered greatly in these parties.  I'm not sure though that the deaths of hundreds could be termed "successful"....but I know many did arrive alive (although others lost fingers, toes, and suffered severe illnesses, etc.)

The links below cover some of what I read (and much of it is well documented).  As with all historical issues, each person needs to read and study what we have available to us and then determine how they feel or believe.  I just know that there are some members who really have issues with the reenactment of what they believe was an uninspired part of our history (so that may be what changed was speaking of in their post that you asked about).

I'll try to find more of what I read if you're interested (it's been a few years ago), but here's a couple of links if you want to read some of the troubling issues surrounding using them (just from doing a quick google search):

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

https://www.denverpost.com/2008/12/11/handcart-hypocrisy/

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by ALarson

[JulieM]

51 minutes ago, ALarson said:

There's been some who feel there are difficult or troubling issues surrounding the handcart usage (or how they came about).  It's been awhile since I've read about it, but I do know that I've heard some comments regarding this when talking about wanting to reenact this part of our history.  I know there are many great faith promoting stories surrounding it as well....but this may be what changed is referring to (wanting to forget about or downplay some of the troubling details, if true).

This is what I have heard (and read some too).  I heard one historian state that untruths have become legendary (myths) when speaking about these treks (they’ve been embellished to make them more incredible or faith promoting).  I should read more on it myself, but what he said was interesting.  

One of the things I remember him saying is that it’s not true that not one of these members from these companies ever left the church (some did).  

I like rongo’s post and suggestions.  I think it’s important to make this experience more accurate.  

Edited October 22, 2018 by JulieM

[bsjkki]

45 minutes ago, JulieM said:

This is what I have heard (and read some too).  I heard one historian state that untruths have become legendary (myths) when speaking about these treks (they’ve been embellished to make them more incredible or faith promoting).  I should read more on it myself, but what he said was interesting.  

One of the things I remember him saying is that it’s not true that not one of these members from these companies ever left the church (some did).  

I like rongo’s post and suggestions.  I think it’s important to make this experience more accurate.  

Here is the link to the real history and where the folklore came from. https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/legacy-audio/sweetwater-rescue-episode-49

Original paper...there are a lot of articles that discuss Chad Orton's research. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/byusq/vol45/iss3/1/

The pioneers were very successful and had a low death rate. I think that is an even more important story to tell. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865607257/New-study-Mormon-pioneers-were-safer-on-trek-than-previously-thought-especially-infants.html

Edited October 22, 2018 by bsjkki

[changed]

On 10/20/2018 at 1:40 PM, rongo said:

No pioneer gear/wear. No women's pull. No dolls named after dead ancestors. No people dressed in white representing angels. Etc....

Less church history, and more centered on just the Savior?

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t figure out why you would say that. 

Why would the church want to distance itself from... polygamy, polyandry, racism, sexism, financial problems of the past?   

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

How could a divine plan, put forth by a "Prophet of God" end up as the worst pioneer emigration disaster in American history? - 222 people died?  good questions.

 

 

There are many things I would hope the church would distance itself from...

Edited October 22, 2018 by changed

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

IMO, there were definitely some poor choices made and bad judgement used  (especially with the one party that left so late).  It honestly does not seem that inspired to me (the entire usage of the handcarts), but I'm also very touched and moved by many of the stories told by the obedient and trusting saints who suffered greatly in these parties.  I'm not sure though that the deaths of hundreds could be termed "successful"....but I know many did arrive alive (although others lost fingers, toes, and suffered severe illnesses, etc.)

The links below cover some of what I read (and much of it is well documented).  As with all historical issues, each person needs to read and study what we have available to us and then determine how they feel or believe.  I just know that there are some members who really have issues with the reenactment of what they believe was an uninspired part of our history (so that may be what changed was speaking of in their post that you asked about).

I'll try to find more of what I read if you're interested (it's been a few years ago), but here's a couple of links if you want to read some of the troubling issues surrounding using them (just from doing a quick google search):

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

https://www.denverpost.com/2008/12/11/handcart-hypocrisy/

 

 

Just saw this (I must have been posting while you posted).

Thank you for the links.  Very interesting and also heartbreaking details.  Those saints were truly SAINTS.  It’s amazing so many survived and I am very touched. This makes me want to study more about this.  It does make me wonder if the money had been spent to actually provide more supplies and actual wagons, how many more members would have arrived alive and safe in SLC.  Of course, hindsight is always 20/20 and I know no one meant this to be such a loss and tragedy for many (the deaths and great suffering).

Edited October 22, 2018 by JulieM

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Here is the link to the real history and where the folklore came from. https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/legacy-audio/sweetwater-rescue-episode-49

Thanks!  I’ll take a look and appreciate you posting this!

[JulieM]

24 minutes ago, changed said:

Less church history, and more centered on just the Savior?

Why would the church want to distance itself from... polygamy, polyandry, racism, sexism, financial problems of the past?   

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

How could a divine plan, put forth by a "Prophet of God" end up as the worst pioneer emigration disaster in American history? - 222 people died?  good questions.

Yeah, that’s a lot of deaths that (most) could have been avoided if more money had been spent or more good sense used (or advice listened to from someone who was knowledgeable about this trail).  

Edited October 22, 2018 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

IMO, there were definitely some poor choices made and bad judgement used  (especially with the one party that left so late).  It honestly does not seem that inspired to me (the entire usage of the handcarts), but I'm also very touched and moved by many of the stories told by the obedient and trusting saints who suffered greatly in these parties.  I'm not sure though that the deaths of hundreds could be termed "successful"....but I know many did arrive alive (although others lost fingers, toes, and suffered severe illnesses, etc.)

The links below cover some of what I read (and much of it is well documented).  As with all historical issues, each person needs to read and study what we have available to us and then determine how they feel or believe.  I just know that there are some members who really have issues with the reenactment of what they believe was an uninspired part of our history (so that may be what changed was speaking of in their post that you asked about).

I'll try to find more of what I read if you're interested (it's been a few years ago), but here's a couple of links if you want to read some of the troubling issues surrounding using them (just from doing a quick google search):

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

https://www.denverpost.com/2008/12/11/handcart-hypocrisy/

 

 

I looked at both of your links. 

What struck me with both pieces is that they focus exclusively on the Willey and Martin handcart treks — which I have acknowledged were failures — and ignore the other eight handcart treks that transpired during this four-year chapter in Church history. 

How much do you know about those other eight treks, those that came before and after the Martin and Willey companies? How much reading have you done on them? I see no indication that you know anything at all about them, much less enough to pronounce the entire four-year venture uninspired.

I think a lot of casual observers —certainly the writers you link to here — look at this subject very myopically and regard the 1856 disasters as reflecting the sum total of the entire handcart experience. That was the point I endeavored to make in my last post, a point you appear to have missed. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, changed said:

Less church history, and more centered on just the Savior?

Why would the church want to distance itself from... polygamy, polyandry, racism, sexism, financial problems of the past?   

http://www.mormonoutreach.org/topics/The_Mormon_Handcart_Disaster.htm

How could a divine plan, put forth by a "Prophet of God" end up as the worst pioneer emigration disaster in American history? - 222 people died?  good questions.

 

 

There are many things I would hope the church would distance itself from...

Two handcart treks had disastrous outcomes arguably due to a string of poor decisions in their execution. But the success of the eight other handcart companies proved that the concept was workable. 

As I said to ALarson, I regard it as myopic to evaluate the entire four-year venture solely on the Willey and Martin company episodes as though the successful treks had never occurred. So no, I don’t agree that the Church is backing away from the handcart history nor that it should. 

In the history of aviation, There have been many disasters, yet we don’t discontinue flight travel because of them. 

As for the other things you listed, it is obvious you have a generally negative disposition about the Church of Jesus Christ and its past, but that does not justify a conclusion that the Church has any intention to “distance itself from its history.”

Edited October 22, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

Levi Savage and Francis Webster are two of my personal handcart heroes:

 

Quote

 

“Brothers and Sisters, what I have said I know to be true; but seeing you are to go forward, I will go with you, will help you all I can, will work with you, will rest with you, will suffer with you, and, if necessary, I will die with you. May God in His mercy bless and preserve us.”

     – Levi Savage, after urging the ill-fated companies                  to not depart so late in the season

 

 

 

Quote

 

President [David O.] McKay relates an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus: “A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit them [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.

“[According to a class member,] some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.

“An old man in the corner … sat silent and listened as long as he could stand it, then he arose and said things that no person who heard him will ever forget. His face was white with emotion, yet he spoke calmly, deliberately, but with great earnestness and sincerity.

“In substance [he] said, ‘I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here, for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Handcart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that company and my wife was in it and Sister Nellie Unthank whom you have cited was there, too. We suffered beyond anything you can imagine and many died of exposure and starvation, but did you ever hear a survivor of that company utter a word of criticism? Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church, because everyone of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.

“‘I have pulled my handcart when I was so weak and weary from illness and lack of food that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead and seen a patch of sand or a hill slope and I have said, I can go only that far and there I must give up, for I cannot pull the load through it.’” He continues: “‘I have gone on to that sand and when I reached it, the cart began pushing me. I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart, but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the angels of God were there.

“‘Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.’”

– Elder James E. Faust, “The Refiner's Fire,” quoting             the account of Francis Webster in an address delivered at     the 149^th Annual General Conference of the Church of       Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at Salt Lake City UT         in April  1979.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, changed said:

... How could a divine plan, put forth by a "Prophet of God" end up as the worst pioneer emigration disaster in American history? - 222 people died?  good questions. ...

At least two people who were in either the Martin or Willey Handcart Companies acknowledged that it was a mistake to send the companies out so late in the season (see my previous post).  Is death the worst possible fate that could befall a person?  It seems, based on some of the experiences you, yourself, have had, that you would disagree.  So would the Savior:

Quote

 

Matthew 10

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

 

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Levi Savage and Francis Webster are two of my personal handcart heroes:

 

 

 

 

Francis Webster’s story is even more amazing. Please listen to the end of the podcast I linked to. It clears up some historical myths but also adds “the rest of the story.”