And they came to pass...the sacrament?

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Jesus said. “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

I believe that applies to any that one might be inclined to judge — including Church leaders. 

I agree..and in any facet of my life...I need to work on this.  A lot has to do with loving ourselves..our esteem...so that we don't react differently towards others.

I read a quote the other day written by a Mr. Casey Gerald.  He is black and gay.

He said:  "A world subdues us...makes strangers to ourselves so that we can be recognizable to others". 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Is it necessary though in your view?

Can a calling be inspired because a person has professional training in the area of policy and once called, then uses their expertise to formulate the policy...possibly praying the Lord helps him to get it right, but the Lord knows his training is sufficient and so provides no specific direction?

I think it may well be necessary in many instances for the reason I have suggested: that even though a decision might seem obvious or self-evident, it is possible there are factors beneath the surface that escape one’s consideration. Seeking divine ratification is a way to put a spiritual element to a decision one has arrived at through fallible, albeit careful and expert, mortal reasoning. 

Look at it this way: If a policy decision by the Brethren, however sensible on its face, is potentially subject to faultfinding by critics, all the more reason to seek assurance early on that it is consistent with the mind and will of the Lord. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I agree..and in any facet of my life...I need to work on this.  A lot has to do with loving ourselves..our esteem...so that we don't react differently towards others.

I read a quote the other day written by a Mr. Casey Gerald.  He is black and gay.

He said:  "A world subdues us...makes strangers to ourselves so that we can be recognizable to others". 

If we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, it seems prudent to learn to love ourselves. God loves each of us, with a love that is difficult to understand. It is the love of a parent towards a child struggling to find her way, but knowing that the best way to do that is to teach, and allow her to make mistakes. The best way I have found to love myself is to pursue with integrity that which is true. Then I have satisfaction with my life, and no regrets. Sometimes that doesn't fit the mold of the world so well, and I an not recognizable to others, but I do believe I am recognizable to God, and in the end that is what matters to me. In learning to see Him, He sees me. 

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This reminds me of Elder Holland's Wrong Road message. In that story he share about how he and his son wondered which road they should take. They thought about it and then prayed to know which direction they should go. He received revelation and so he took the road. It was the wrong road. Ultimately, what he considered to be revelation from God, was actually wrong information. In truth, I suspect there wasn't any revelation. He prayed and listened to his thoughts and feelings trying to glean inspiration. It didn't work in this case.

I wanted to refresh my memory regarding the message of Elder Holland’s talk, so I did a Google search to look it up. 

Where I ended up first was Elder Holland’s son’s recollection of the same incident as recounted earlier by him in a New Era magazine article in 2005. An excerpt:

“He continued, ‘The Lord has taught us an important lesson today. Because we were prompted to take the road to the left, we quickly discovered which one was the right one. When we turned around and got on the right road, I was able to travel along its many unfamiliar twists and turnoffs perfectly confident I was headed in the right direction.

“‘If we had started on the right road, we might have driven for 30 minutes or so, become uneasy with the unfamiliar surroundings, and been tempted to turn back. If we had done that, we would have discovered the dead-end so late that it would have been too dark to find our way back in totally unfamiliar territory.’

“I understood and have never forgotten the lesson my Heavenly Father and earthly father taught me that afternoon. Sometimes in response to prayers, the Lord may guide us down what seems to be the wrong road—or at least a road we don’t understand—so, in due time, He can get us firmly and without question on the right road. Of course, He would never lead us down a path of sin, but He might lead us down a road of valuable experience. Sometimes in our journey through life we can get from point A to point C only by taking a short side road to point B. We had prayed that we could make it safely home that day, and we did.”

Link: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/07/wrong-roads-and-revelation?lang=eng

It is clear that your conclusion from the incident is altogether at odds with that of Elder Holland and his son, Matt (who, incidentally, is immediate past president of Utah Valley University). Both are absolutely certain they each received personal revelation that day. And both clearly understand the purpose of that spiritual prompting. It was to help them gain valuable information through experience that would ultimately help bring them safely home. 

You choose to believe, contrary to their own account, that there was no personal revelation given in that instance.  I’m going with the conclusion of Jeffrey and Matt Holland, who are proximate witnesses to their own experience. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wanted to refresh my memory regarding the message of Elder Holland’s talk, so I did a Google search to look it up. 

Where I ended up first was Elder Holland’s son’s recollection of the same incident as recounted earlier by him in a New Era magazine article in 2005. An excerpt:

“He continued, ‘The Lord has taught us an important lesson today. Because we were prompted to take the road to the left, we quickly discovered which one was the right one. When we turned around and got on the right road, I was able to travel along its many unfamiliar twists and turnoffs perfectly confident I was headed in the right direction.

“‘If we had started on the right road, we might have driven for 30 minutes or so, become uneasy with the unfamiliar surroundings, and been tempted to turn back. If we had done that, we would have discovered the dead-end so late that it would have been too dark to find our way back in totally unfamiliar territory.’

“I understood and have never forgotten the lesson my Heavenly Father and earthly father taught me that afternoon. Sometimes in response to prayers, the Lord may guide us down what seems to be the wrong road—or at least a road we don’t understand—so, in due time, He can get us firmly and without question on the right road. Of course, He would never lead us down a path of sin, but He might lead us down a road of valuable experience. Sometimes in our journey through life we can get from point A to point C only by taking a short side road to point B. We had prayed that we could make it safely home that day, and we did.”

Link: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/07/wrong-roads-and-revelation?lang=eng

It is clear that your conclusion from the incident is altogether at odds with that of Elder Holland and his son, Matt (who, incidentally, is immediate past president of Utah Valley University). Both are absolutely certain they each received personal revelation that day. And both clearly understand the purpose of that spiritual prompting. It was to help them gain valuable information through experience that would ultimately help bring them safely home. 

You choose to believe, contrary to their own account, that there was no personal revelation given in that instance.  I’m going with the conclusion of Jeffrey and Matt Holland, who are proximate witnesses to their own experience. 

IIRC there were some minor inconsistencies between the Matt Holland version and the Elder Holland version, but I agree that they state they received revelation.

But think about this... an apostle and his young son pray to know which way to go. They both receive independent revelation that proves to take them down the wrong road. This would be one of those teaching moments where dad has to explain to young son why he received revelation that was wrong. So to overcome the cognitive dissonance about why God would give them a faulty revelation, they seek to find meaning in the wrong revelation. This is a great example of confirmation bias.  God told me the wrong road so I could know it was wrong. This is so backwards and illustrates the lengths people go to in an attempt to hold on to their preconceived notion, even in the face of evidence they were wrong.

Have you ever asked your father (or some other trusted loved one) an important question only to discover that he told you wrong? Does it really seem like a reasonable conclusion that your father would lie to you and give you an answer he knows is false, simply so you can discover your father was wrong? That is the opposite of building trust. Imagine if Nephi had received revelation about how to build a ship. He builds. He puts it in the water. It immediately sinks. The lesson he learns is...that is NOT how I should build a ship. I'm so lucky I discovered that now before we were out on the ocean. Or God could just tell him a proper way to build a ship that works and therefore builds faith in revelation.

The wrong road story is not faith promoting in the slightest. It calls into question every single instance of "revelation" in ones life. If you think that the revelation you receive could very well be wrong because God is teaching you a lesson, how likely are you to trust in that revelation when it prompts you to do something? What it does is allow a person to avoid responsibility for their own decisions. If the revelation reveals the right road...great. See, revelation is real and it works. If the revelation reveals the wrong road...great. See, revelation is real and it works. Revelation becomes totally unreliable and therefore meaningless.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That is the opposite of building trust.

Is it?  This is Elder Hollands personal account.  It is his story and his experience, and for him it helped build trust in the Lord, so much so that he shared the experience in conference.  How can you say that this did not help build trust.  I don't think Elder Holland would frame this as the Lord telling him the wrong answer, rather he would frame it as the Lord helping him to gain a more sure confidence in the right answer more quickly.  He led him down the road of "valuable experience" - there is nothing wrong about valuable experience.  If it was a long, never ending road, he would not have sent him down it - it would not have been a valuable experience.  In this case, however, it was.  He looked at it as a tender mercy, because as he said, he might have started second guessing himself if the Lord prompted him to go the right way as he drove through unfamiliar territory.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Imagine if Nephi had received revelation about how to build a ship. He builds. He puts it in the water. It immediately sinks. The lesson he learns is...that is NOT how I should build a ship. I'm so lucky I discovered that now before we were out on the ocean. Or God could just tell him a proper way to build a ship that works and therefore builds faith in revelation.

Very different scenario.  5 minute drive vs. months-years hard labor.  One helped build confidence quickly, the other would hurt confidence.  One is merciful, the other is a cruel joke.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The wrong road story is not faith promoting in the slightest. 

 Maybe for you, but you weren't there. The Lord works us individually.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It calls into question every single instance of "revelation" in ones life. If you think that the revelation you receive could very well be wrong because God is teaching you a lesson, how likely are you to trust in that revelation when it prompts you to do something? 

For me, it helps me to trust that the Lord is mindful of us, and that he will direct us ALWAYS in merciful roads of valuable lessons.  We are talking a short 5 minute lesson vs hours of driving of uneasiness. I would personally take it as a tender mercy.   If the wrong road kept going and going and going, then that is a different story.

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is it?  This is Elder Hollands personal account.  It is his story and his experience, and for him it helped build trust in the Lord, so much so that he shared the experience in conference.  How can you say that this did not help build trust.  I don't think Elder Holland would frame this as the Lord telling him the wrong answer, rather he would frame it as the Lord helping him to gain a more sure confidence in the right answer more quickly.  He led him down the road of "valuable experience" - there is nothing wrong about valuable experience.  If it was a long, never ending road, he would not have sent him down it - it would not have been a valuable experience.  In this case, however, it was.  He looked at it as a tender mercy, because as he said, he might have started second guessing himself if the Lord prompted him to go the right way as he drove through unfamiliar territory.

Very different scenario.  5 minute drive vs. months-years hard labor.  One helped build confidence quickly, the other would hurt confidence.  One is merciful, the other is a cruel joke.

 Maybe for you, but you weren't there. The Lord works us individually.

For me, it helps me to trust that the Lord is mindful of us, and that he will direct us ALWAYS in merciful roads of valuable lessons.  We are talking a short 5 minute lesson vs hours of driving of uneasiness. I would personally take it as a tender mercy.   If the wrong road kept going and going and going, then that is a different story.

Personally, I love Elder Holland's wrong roads story.  It helps me explain so many of the things that I believe were wrong roads in our history:  polygamy, polyandry, racist teachings, temple ban, LGBTQ doctrine, and the PoX.  We have yet to reach the end of some of those wrong roads but I'm confident we'll get there and be able to turn around and find the right road.

[HappyJackWagon]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is it?  This is Elder Hollands personal account.  It is his story and his experience, and for him it helped build trust in the Lord, so much so that he shared the experience in conference.  How can you say that this did not help build trust.  I don't think Elder Holland would frame this as the Lord telling him the wrong answer, rather he would frame it as the Lord helping him to gain a more sure confidence in the right answer more quickly.  He led him down the road of "valuable experience" - there is nothing wrong about valuable experience.  If it was a long, never ending road, he would not have sent him down it - it would not have been a valuable experience.  In this case, however, it was.  He looked at it as a tender mercy, because as he said, he might have started second guessing himself if the Lord prompted him to go the right way as he drove through unfamiliar territory.

Very different scenario.  5 minute drive vs. months-years hard labor.  One helped build confidence quickly, the other would hurt confidence.  One is merciful, the other is a cruel joke.

 Maybe for you, but you weren't there. The Lord works us individually.

For me, it helps me to trust that the Lord is mindful of us, and that he will direct us ALWAYS in merciful roads of valuable lessons.  We are talking a short 5 minute lesson vs hours of driving of uneasiness. I would personally take it as a tender mercy.   If the wrong road kept going and going and going, then that is a different story.

He shared a personal account to the general membership of the church to help build faith. So I can quite easily it doesn't help build trust for me. If he never shared it, it would be a meaningful event for him and his son. As it is, he's trying to teach valuable lessons which I think are ridiculous. Again, if one cannot trust God to give an honest answer to a question via revelation, revelation loses its value.

The idea that God could only provide peace and confidence to Holland by sending him down the wrong road is ludicrous. Instead of telling him the wrong road to take by misleading him into thinking it was the right road, why not simply say, "this is the wrong road. Travel it for 5 minutes and you will know."

Why is it a different scenario? Simply because of the amount of time that was wasted? Where is the line for what is too much time wasted? The purpose of the wrong road was to teach a lesson that it was the wrong road. Why does there need to be a time limit on that? Does Holland imply there is a time limit on the spirit leading you down the wrong road?

These justifications crack me up.

13 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Personally, I love Elder Holland's wrong roads story.  It helps me explain so many of the things that I believe were wrong roads in our history:  polygamy, polyandry, racist teachings, temple ban, LGBTQ doctrine, and the PoX.  We have yet to reach the end of some of those wrong roads but I'm confident we'll get there and be able to turn around and find the right road.

That's very generous of you. But it assumes that God gave revelation for racist teachings, temple bans, PoX etc to teach the church that they were wrong. I don't believe that God will "reveal" things that harm people so that others come to realize that those things are harmful.

As a parent I told my young child not to touch the stove because it will burn. I taught a correct principle and shared the real consequence so that my child could learn.

Wrong roads would be more like me telling my child to touch the hot stove while telling him it doesn't hurt. Then when it hurts I say, "see, the stove is hot. Now you know not to touch it." Pretty stupid parenting the destroys trust. Personally, I don't think God plays those kinds of games with his children.

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's very generous of you. But it assumes that God gave revelation for racist teachings, temple bans, PoX etc to teach the church that they were wrong. I don't believe that God will "reveal" things that harm people so that others come to realize that those things are harmful.

As a parent I told my young child not to touch the stove because it will burn. I taught a correct principle and shared the real consequence so that my child could learn.

Wrong roads would be more like me telling my child to touch the hot stove while telling him it doesn't hurt. Then when it hurts I say, "see, the stove is hot. Now you know not to touch it." Pretty stupid parenting the destroys trust. Personally, I don't think God plays those kinds of games with his children.

Good point... I don't assume that revelation was given for those things so Holland's "wrong roads" isn't an apt comparison since God did tell him to take the wrong road.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

IIRC there were some minor inconsistencies between the Matt Holland version and the Elder Holland version, but I agree that they state they received revelation.

But think about this... an apostle and his young son pray to know which way to go. They both receive independent revelation that proves to take them down the wrong road. This would be one of those teaching moments where dad has to explain to young son why he received revelation that was wrong. So to overcome the cognitive dissonance about why God would give them a faulty revelation, they seek to find meaning in the wrong revelation. This is a great example of confirmation bias.  God told me the wrong road so I could know it was wrong. This is so backwards and illustrates the lengths people go to in an attempt to hold on to their preconceived notion, even in the face of evidence they were wrong.

Have you ever asked your father (or some other trusted loved one) an important question only to discover that he told you wrong? Does it really seem like a reasonable conclusion that your father would lie to you and give you an answer he knows is false, simply so you can discover your father was wrong? That is the opposite of building trust. Imagine if Nephi had received revelation about how to build a ship. He builds. He puts it in the water. It immediately sinks. The lesson he learns is...that is NOT how I should build a ship. I'm so lucky I discovered that now before we were out on the ocean. Or God could just tell him a proper way to build a ship that works and therefore builds faith in revelation.

The wrong road story is not faith promoting in the slightest. It calls into question every single instance of "revelation" in ones life. If you think that the revelation you receive could very well be wrong because God is teaching you a lesson, how likely are you to trust in that revelation when it prompts you to do something? What it does is allow a person to avoid responsibility for their own decisions. If the revelation reveals the right road...great. See, revelation is real and it works. If the revelation reveals the wrong road...great. See, revelation is real and it works. Revelation becomes totally unreliable and therefore meaningless.

But the revelation was not wrong. It was precisely what they both needed at the moment to save them from needless worry and costly backtracking. 

What were the “minor inconsistencies”? They must not have amounted to much if you don’t recall them in detail. 

As I said, I accept the Hollands’ accounts of the occasion over your baseless speculation.  It was they, after all, who experienced it. 

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If he never shared it, it would be a meaningful event for him and his son. 

I think it can be meaningful for anyone.  Maybe this specific scenario might not have worked for you (and therefore probably would not have happened to you), but it worked for them.  THAT is the point. 

Do you really disagree with the overall moral of the story?  Do you really believe that the Lord NEVER takes us on detours to teach us valuable lessons?  You don't really don't see any potential value in that general concept?  Here is how he put it:

Quote

Sometimes in response to prayers, the Lord may guide us down what seems to be the wrong road—or at least a road we don’t understand—so, in due time, He can get us firmly and without question on the right road. Of course, He would never lead us down a path of sin, but He might lead us down a road of valuable experience...We had prayed that we could make it safely home that day, and we did.

The message is that the Lord works in ways that work for us. 

31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The purpose of the wrong road was to teach a lesson that it was the wrong road. Why does there need to be a time limit on that?

The lesson, was that the Lord not only helps us get on the right road, but he helps us do it in a way that we can be confident in.  Sometimes that requires detours.  The point was not to show them which road was wrong as much as it was to quickly build confidence that the right road is right so they didn't have to second guess themselves the whole way home.   It worked wonderfully. 

31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why is it a different scenario? Simply because of the amount of time that was wasted? Where is the line for what is too much time wasted?

I'm sure it is different for each scenario and each individual.  In this particular scenario they prayed that they would make it home safe that night.  So, if the wrong road was too long, the prayer would not have been answered.  He would have lost confidence.  

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by pogi

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Good point... I don't assume that revelation was given for those things so Holland's "wrong roads" isn't an apt comparison since God did tell him to take the wrong road.

Or he incorrectly labeled his own thoughts and preference, or feelings of comfort, as revelation.

It is clear that Elder Holland misinterpreted the revelation in some way. He believed he was told to take a road that would be correct. So either he misinterpreted his own feelings and attributed them to the spirit, or he didn't clearly understand what the spirit was telling him.

Edited November 2, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He believed he was told to take a road that would be correct. 

He was "prompted to take the road to the left".  If he assumed that it was the right road, it was not because of the Lord.  n many ways, it ended up being the right road for him in the end anyway, so it was not really the "wrong" way from a pragmatic confidence building point of view. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by pogi

[ksfisher]

56 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Or he incorrectly labeled his own thoughts and preference, or feelings of comfort, as revelation.

It is clear that Elder Holland misinterpreted the revelation in some way. He believed he was told to take a road that would be correct. So either he misinterpreted his own feelings and attributed them to the spirit, or he didn't clearly understand what the spirit was telling him.

You're not saying that you know better than Elder Holland when Elder Holland receives revelation, are you?

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're not saying that you know better than Elder Holland when Elder Holland receives revelation, are you?

Do you honestly believe it was a revelation that Elder Holland received regarding which way to go?  I think it was an impression or prompting (which can be wrong as it turned out to be in this story).  But a revelation?  No.

[ksfisher]

33 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you honestly believe it was a revelation that Elder Holland received regarding which way to go?  I think it was an impression or prompting (which can be wrong as it turned out to be in this story).  But a revelation?  No.

I used the same term Happy Jack used, as I was quoting him.

Personally, I would call it as you said, an impression or prompting. 

Whether it was wrong or not seems to be up to the person who received it.  Monday morning quarterbacking someone else's spiritual experiences does not seem appropriate. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by ksfisher

[HappyJackWagon]

50 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're not saying that you know better than Elder Holland when Elder Holland receives revelation, are you?

I am saying that he was either wrong by calling something revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) that wasn't, OR he was wrong by misinterpreting what the revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) was telling him. This is obvious because he asked which road to take and then he chose the road and attributed it to revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) yet was wrong.

Once he realized he was wrong he had to try to understand why he was wrong so he came up with the explanation he did to turn an error into a faith promoting experience.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

IWhether it was wrong or not seems to be up to the person who received it.  Monday morning quarterbacking someone else's spiritual experiences does not seem appropriate. 

Do you apply this same logic or opinion regarding all spiritual experiences or revelations that others have? 

[Bernard Gui]

I won't gainsay the prophet because I had an experience similar to what he reported, not in physical directions, but spiritual directions. It was painful, instructive, intense, and set me on a spiritual path that led to meeting and marrying Sister Gui. I didn't understand it at the time, but now I do and am grateful for it. 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I am saying that he was either wrong by calling something revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) that wasn't, OR he was wrong by misinterpreting what the revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) was telling him. This is obvious because he asked which road to take and then he chose the road and attributed it to revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) yet was wrong.

Once he realized he was wrong he had to try to understand why he was wrong so he came up with the explanation he did to turn an error into a faith promoting experience.

Or...

He was right for calling it inspiration, and he was right for interpreting it the way he did.  To alter your phrasing a tad - this is obvious because he asked which road to take and the Lord showed him the best road to avoid questioning his impressions later on and potentially turning around and getting into trouble.   You keep saying it was the "wrong" road.  You are being too literal about this.  It was the right road in many, many ways.  It worked perfectly.  It gave them what they really needed - time saving confidence that they could not have received in any other way.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Or...

He was right for calling it inspiration, and he was right for interpreting it the way he did.  To alter your phrasing a tad - this is obvious because he asked which road to take and the Lord showed him the best road to avoid questioning his impressions later on and potentially turning around and getting into trouble.   You keep saying it was the "wrong" road.  You are being too literal about this.  It was the right road in many, many ways.  It worked perfectly.  It gave them what they really needed - time saving confidence that they could not have received in any other way.

 

Then he asked the wrong question, thus leading him to misunderstand the prompting. I don't recall that he asked which road he should take to avoid questioning his impressions. In fact, afterwards, he would be more likely to question his impressions since he misunderstood the road question/answer/purpose.

I find it hilarious that you think I'm too literal about the "wrong" road, when he literally took the "wrong" road, and the video was even titled "wrong" roads.  

The only way it was the right road, is by being so wrong, it became obvious it was wrong so that the Hollands could then choose the right road. This is so backwards. I find it funny, but also sad.

[ksfisher]

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I am saying that he was either wrong by calling something revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) that wasn't, OR he was wrong by misinterpreting what the revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) was telling him. This is obvious because he asked which road to take and then he chose the road and attributed it to revelation, inspiration, prompting (whatever) yet was wrong.

Once he realized he was wrong he had to try to understand why he was wrong so he came up with the explanation he did to turn an error into a faith promoting experience.

I'm not sure how you could know what he experienced enough to make a judgement about whether he interpreted it right or wrong.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure how you could know what he experienced enough to make a judgement about whether he interpreted it right or wrong.

Did he not state, or at least imply, that he asked which road he should take to get home, and then took the road he felt impressed to take. The fact is that the road was the wrong road. I've given 3 reasons how Holland could have been in error here.

And I don't blame Elder Holland. There's nothing wrong with making a mistake. The real problem comes in trying to justify and turn that mistake into the will of God because he can't accept that he made a mistake.

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you apply this same logic or opinion regarding all spiritual experiences or revelations that others have? 

I think it is obvious that we need to take into account what we know about the person.  Elder Holland was later chosen to be and apostle of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  That would seem like a pretty good endorsement of his character and an indication of his ability to discern the Lord's will.

 

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Then he asked the wrong question, thus leading him to misunderstand the prompting. I don't recall that he asked which road he should take to avoid questioning his impressions. In fact, afterwards, he would be more likely to question his impressions since he misunderstood the road question/answer/purpose.

Do you know what he asked specifically?  The only thing we know for sure that they asked for is this: "We had prayed that we could make it safely home that day, and we did."

38 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The only way it was the right road, is by being so wrong, it became obvious it was wrong so that the Hollands could then choose the right road. This is so backwards. I find it funny, but also sad.

Yes he did literally take the wrong road, literally, but that is not the point.  The point was that it was the right road for them.  

40 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The only way it was the right road, is by being so wrong, it became obvious it was wrong so that the Hollands could then choose the right road. This is so backwards. I find it funny, but also sad.

Happy, you are looking past the mark.  I am kind of scratching my head at this because of all the people on here, I would have guessed that it would be you who would be defending the moral of this story. 

I remember having a discussion on these boards a while back about if the Lord would ever inspire a person to leave the church in order to learn valuable lessons that could eventually make them stronger members later.  It seemed to be the more conservative members who disagreed with that position and the more liberal (religiously speaking) members who agreed with it.  So, I am surprised to see it reversed in this scenario.  So, where do you stand?  You never answered my question so I am curious - Do you really disagree with the overall moral of the story?  Do you really believe that the Lord NEVER takes us on detours to teach us valuable lessons?  You don't see any potential value in that general concept?