Navidad Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 One of my neighbors recently told me he would never become a Latter-day Saint because "they want him to give up his faith in the Virgin of Guadalupe." He wasn't/isn't about to do that. Recently I was talking about that with an elderly elder who assured me that they have that covered because the Saints blend together the concepts of heavenly mother with that of the Virgin of Guadalupe or Mary. He told me that often helped when converting traditional Catholics here. Is that true? Isn't that a form of syncretism, or is that something the missionaries will do; try and find a connection between folk/indigenous beliefs and LDS doctrine to effect a conversion? Not something I had ever thought of before.
MiserereNobis Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 I've thought about this from time to time while posting here because I have an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary (hence my avatar and quote). She is the one who led me to Christ and Catholicism and I love her dearly for her intercessions in my life, some small, some quite large. As an outsider, the problem I see with transferring devotion from Mary to the LDS heavenly mother is that it appears that one shouldn't have a devotion to heavenly mother. No prayers, etc, so I don't see how one could use it as a conversion talking point to someone who is devoted to Mary. But I'm an outsider, so the LDS folk here can clarify. 3
Jane_Doe Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 The Virgin Mary was indeed highly favored of the Lord and a good woman, but she was not Perfect. She was a sinner in need of Savior just as much as the rest of us. It is inappropriate to address prayers to anyone besides the Father (cause that's what Christ told us to do), and no sinner has intercessory powers. Heavenly Mother, on the other hand, is Perfect. We don't know much about her, but that doesn't downplay her Perfection. It strikes me as extremely odd to draw that comparison, other than a very generic 'there is a heavenly female presence' way. 2
mrmarklin Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 AFAIK this sort of mixup is not even alluded to by missionaries. I have a son who served in Mexico City.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: I've thought about this from time to time while posting here because I have an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary (hence my avatar and quote). She is the one who led me to Christ and Catholicism and I love her dearly for her intercessions in my life, some small, some quite large. As an outsider, the problem I see with transferring devotion from Mary to the LDS heavenly mother is that it appears that one shouldn't have a devotion to heavenly mother. No prayers, etc, so I don't see how one could use it as a conversion talking point to someone who is devoted to Mary. But I'm an outsider, so the LDS folk here can clarify. Even though our Heavenly Mother is barely mentioned, she is powerfully venerated just the same. One of our most beloved hymns, by the LDS poet par excellence (Eliza Snow), mentions her with great beauty and restraint. I had learned to call thee Father, Thru thy Spirit from on high, But, until the key of knowledge Was restored, I knew not why. In the heav’ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason; truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high? Then, at length, when I’ve completed All you sent me forth to do, With your mutual approbation Let me come and dwell with you. 3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: ..................................... no sinner has intercessory powers. We LDS have our own version of "intercession of the Saints," namely our proxy sacraments in our temples. We consider ourselves "saviors on Mt Zion," and both LDS men and women exercise priesthood power in order to bring all the ordinances to everyone who has ever lived. Quote Heavenly Mother, on the other hand, is Perfect. We don't know much about her, but that doesn't downplay her Perfection. ..................... We find the imagery of both Heavenly Mother and of Mother Mary inextricably mixed in the Visions of Lehi & Nephi in the Book of Mormon, as discussed in detail by Dan Peterson, "Nephi and His Asherah: A Note on 1 Nephi 11: 8-23," in Davis Bitton, ed., Mormons, Scripture, and the Ancient World: Studies in Honor of John L. Sorenson (FARMS, 1998), online at https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1085&index=9 . We also know that this was a strong belief among common Israelites, based on extensive archeological evidence. William G. Dever, Did God Have a Wife? Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel (Eerdmans, 2005), online at http://download.loire.ru/?q=did+god+have+a+wife . Edited October 7, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
Navidad Posted October 7, 2018 Author Posted October 7, 2018 Ok Another new concept for me. Heavenly mother is perfect? A Goddess - capital G? Part of the LD S godhead with the Father? The mother of Christ from a spirit child perspective? In a year I have never heard her mentioned in chapel. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok Another new concept for me. Heavenly mother is perfect? A Goddess - capital G? Part of the LD S godhead with the Father? The mother of Christ from a spirit child perspective? In a year I have never heard her mentioned in chapel. She is never mentioned as a member of the Gottheit, and is rarely mentioned at all -- except when singing "O My Father" in the LDS Hymnbook. It is essential to recognize that no man raised to godhood in the Celestial Kingdom can do so as a single male. He must be sealed to a woman forever. He and his wife become one flesh forever, and his priesthood cannot be exercised without such unity. What all that means is a mystery.
MiserereNobis Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: The Virgin Mary was indeed highly favored of the Lord and a good woman, but she was not Perfect. She was a sinner in need of Savior just as much as the rest of us Here is where we differ. It is Catholic doctrine that Mary was born free of original sin (the immaculate conception) and, through the grace of God, committed no sin. She did need a Savior to give her the grace to not sin. She wasn't saved in sin, she was saved from sin. 12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: and no sinner has intercessory powers. Praying to the Blessed Virgin and to other Saints is asking them to plead our case before God. It is similar to asking your friends and family to pray for you, except Mary is even more efficacious because she is the mother of God and we tend to listen to our mothers 3
MiserereNobis Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: she is powerfully venerated just the same How is she venerated? There is the one song, but is there any other veneration? Or do you mean she is held in high regard even though there is no practical veneration?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: How is she venerated? There is the one song, but is there any other veneration? Or do you mean she is held in high regard even though there is no practical veneration? Yes. That she cannot even be named despite her strong presence in our minds is a singular factor, and presents a vexing mystery. It isn't only that she is the Theotokos, the Mother of God (1 Nephi 11:18-20 "Mother of God, . . . bearing a child in her arms"), but that the Great Mother Goddess everywhere in the ancient world had those same characteristics. For example, the perpetually virginal Isis/Hathor was known as ancient Egyptian mwt-ntr “Mother of God” (= Greek Θεοτόκος Theotokos “Bearer of God”), and the icon of Isis and baby Horus is identical with the icon of Mary suckling baby Jesus. Another epithet for Isis/Hathor is ancient Egyptian nbt pt “Lady of Heaven” (Sinuhe B,270) = Hebrew Malkat haššamayim (Jer 7:18, 44:17-19,25) = LXX Basilissi tou ouranou “Queen of Heaven.” Some works by Mormons which address this issue: A Mother There: A Survey Of Historical Teachings About Mother In Heaven by David L. Paulsen and Martin Pulido Does God Have A Wife? by Alyson Skabelund Von FeldtHow To Worship Our Mother In Heaven (Without Getting Excommunicated) by Kevin L. Barney Edited October 7, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
Jane_Doe Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok Another new concept for me. Heavenly mother is perfect? A Goddess - capital G? Part of the LD S godhead with the Father? The mother of Christ from a spirit child perspective? In a year I have never heard her mentioned in chapel. Of course, she is ONE with the Father, after all. She and the Father are the Heavenly Parents of all. The reason you don't fear much discussion about this subject is because not much is known, so there's not much to discuss. Here's an essay talking about everything that is known, in it's full extent: https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng You'll notice how it is a very short essay.
Jane_Doe Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: Here is where we differ. It is Catholic doctrine that Mary was born free of original sin (the immaculate conception) and, through the grace of God, committed no sin. She did need a Savior to give her the grace to not sin. She wasn't saved in sin, she was saved from sin. Praying to the Blessed Virgin and to other Saints is asking them to plead our case before God. It is similar to asking your friends and family to pray for you, except Mary is even more efficacious because she is the mother of God and we tend to listen to our mothers The Catholic concepts all ones that don't carry over to LDS theology, hence the extreme apples-to-cats nature of this comparison.
jpv Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Here's an essay talking about everything that is known, in it's full extent: https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng You'll notice how it is a very short essay. Ridiculously inaccurate. That link doesn't even claim that. Start with the article by Dan Peterson posted above and then check out: https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven
strappinglad Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) As far as I know The RCC does not posit a Female God equivalent to the Father. Mary is venerated as Holy. The RCC has been able to fend off any tendency toward the errors made by other cults who have taken liberties. The Israelites were always being seduced by neighbors who carried the worship of a Female God into fertility rites which often devolved into lurid practices. We LDS see ourselves as not just metaphorical Israelites but literal ones too. Perhaps for this reason, we stay well away from any hint of such doctrine , at least publicly. It's kind of like the famous couplet about God and man . Sure it is there but we don't know much about it and don't teach it directly, at least about half of it. Edited October 7, 2018 by strappinglad
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: It's kind of like the famous couplet about God and man . Sure it is there but we don't know much about it and don't teach it directly, at least about half of it. That is a good comparison.
mnn727 Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: The Virgin Mary was indeed highly favored of the Lord and a good woman, but she was not Perfect. She was a sinner in need of Savior just as much as the rest of us. Not according to the RCC. The Immaculate Conception was about Mary.
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 6:55 PM, Navidad said: One of my neighbors recently told me he would never become a Latter-day Saint because "they want him to give up his faith in the Virgin of Guadalupe." He wasn't/isn't about to do that. Recently I was talking about that with an elderly elder who assured me that they have that covered because the Saints blend together the concepts of heavenly mother with that of the Virgin of Guadalupe or Mary. He told me that often helped when converting traditional Catholics here. Is that true? Isn't that a form of syncretism, or is that something the missionaries will do; try and find a connection between folk/indigenous beliefs and LDS doctrine to effect a conversion? Not something I had ever thought of before. Uh no. Never heard of such a thing. We do not believe in the VoG
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 6:55 PM, Navidad said: One of my neighbors recently told me he would never become a Latter-day Saint because "they want him to give up his faith in the Virgin of Guadalupe." He wasn't/isn't about to do that. Recently I was talking about that with an elderly elder who assured me that they have that covered because the Saints blend together the concepts of heavenly mother with that of the Virgin of Guadalupe or Mary. He told me that often helped when converting traditional Catholics here. Is that true? Isn't that a form of syncretism, or is that something the missionaries will do; try and find a connection between folk/indigenous beliefs and LDS doctrine to effect a conversion? Not something I had ever thought of before. Wait a minute. Things are starting to make sense You go to an LDS ward in the Colonias? That could explain the lack of connection with traditional Mormanity.
MiserereNobis Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Mormanity Is this your new term for Mormonism? 😁
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Is this your new term for Mormonism? 😁 No just a contraction of "Mormon Insanity". Cultural stuff that gets made into stone. Hey if you are going to violate a rule- take it to the limit! Actually Jeff Lindsay has a blog named "Mormanity" but that is not what I was referring to - I was just being my usual ornery self. (For easterners- look it up. Actually the spelling should be "on-ree" anyway) https://mormanity.blogspot.com/ Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski
Royce Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 8:55 PM, Navidad said: One of my neighbors recently told me he would never become a Latter-day Saint because "they want him to give up his faith in the Virgin of Guadalupe." He wasn't/isn't about to do that. Recently I was talking about that with an elderly elder who assured me that they have that covered because the Saints blend together the concepts of heavenly mother with that of the Virgin of Guadalupe or Mary. He told me that often helped when converting traditional Catholics here. Is that true? Isn't that a form of syncretism, or is that something the missionaries will do; try and find a connection between folk/indigenous beliefs and LDS doctrine to effect a conversion? Not something I had ever thought of before. Short answer: no.
SettingDogStar Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 I think this happens a lot in missions, especially ones with some history. Whether or not this is actually a story the missionaries taught or not the concept is the same. In my mission we had a couple of reservations and the stories about "secret" prayer circles, temple like initiations, and past missionaries experiences were spread like wild fire throughout the mission all while I was there. Also I think sometimes, in an attempt to connect with other churches doctrines, missionaries sometimes make uninformed statements like this and then it gets twisted and repeated to every greenie. I was just as guilty!!
Yirgacheffe Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 On 10/7/2018 at 2:29 PM, jpv said: Ridiculously inaccurate. That link doesn't even claim that. Start with the article by Dan Peterson posted above and then check out: https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven Isn't that ridiculously inaccurate site the official church website?
Calm Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said: Isn't that ridiculously inaccurate site the official church website? I think jpv was saying the comment, not the link, was inaccurate, that there was more known about Heavenly Mother than in the essay. Hopefully .I will be corrected if I misinterpreted that comment. Edited October 10, 2018 by Calm
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