katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 5 hours ago, pogi said: Some snippets: Do you agree with her that 100% of the responsibility is on men? Or is she being satirical about that too...because it sure doesn't sound like it. Judging by the replies to her posts, people took her seriously. Some agreed, some didn't. "The only way to do this is by focusing on men...? Really? Women have no say about condoms? Yeah right! It's really easy..."no condom...no sex!" The man will have a condom on quicker than you can slip on a shower cap! Not using condoms is a mutual agreement. Anything else is rape. I agree with her about shame though. Shaming is never helpful...ever! Shaming men is no better. Quote: "She said men are to blame because “unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly,” whereas women can orgasm as many times as they would like without ever getting pregnant." Can you really argue with this logic? I can't. I can't believe no one else here thinks thinks this is funny! (maybe its a guy thing...) 3
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 4 hours ago, ksfisher said: I completely missed any hint of satire. I don't even know how to respond to that.
ksfisher Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 54 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I don't even know how to respond to that. I don’t know that you need to respond. Just saying that when I read it I didn’t pick up on any satire. Perhaps it’s just my unfamiliarity with the writer.
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, katherine the great said: Quote: "She said men are to blame because “unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly,” whereas women can orgasm as many times as they would like without ever getting pregnant." Can you really argue with this logic? I can't. I can't believe no one else here thinks thinks this is funny! (maybe its a guy thing...) It's kind of funny until you realize that, wait...she is being serious. She really seems to thinks that men are 100% to blame and that women have no culpability whatsoever. At least that is how she sums it all up by saying "the point is..." The truth is orgasms don't really happen without, um, friction. So, I would rephrase her statement in rebuttal to say, "unwanted pregnancies can only happen when women offer irresponsible friction with irresponsible men." Truth is, unwanted pregnancies can only happen when irresponsible women sleep with irresponsible men. Edited September 20, 2018 by pogi
phaedrus ut Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 I think the lack of comprehension of her argument by many of the comments here somewhat proves her point. Phaedrus 1
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: I think the lack of comprehension of her argument by many of the comments here somewhat proves her point. Phaedrus If you are referring to me when you speak of poor comprehension, please expound... Just what is her argument? Because if it is something other than this: Quote My point is that it’s nonsense to focus on women if you’re trying to get rid of abortions. Abortion is the ‘cure’ for an unwanted pregnancy. If you want to stop abortions, you need to prevent the ‘disease’ – meaning, unwanted pregnancies. And the only way to do that, is by focusing on men ...” Then please share how you learned to read her mind rather than her words.
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 2 hours ago, pogi said: Truth is, unwanted pregnancies can only happen when irresponsible women sleep with irresponsible men. Do you want to rethink that statement? 2
smac97 Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 On 9/17/2018 at 9:50 PM, katherine the great said: I think she's just trying to get people to think about the men's responsibility for unwanted pregnancies rather than heaping all the blame on the women. I think its semi-satirical and I don't think she is encouraging abortion. I hope it's satirical. Blaming men 100% is no more reasonable than blaming women 100% Worse, her comments infantalize women (unless she's being satirical?). Thanks, -Smac
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, katherine the great said: Do you want to rethink that statement? With the exception of rape...no. Her argument, however, is not about rape, it is about consenting adults; and yet she somehow concludes that only the man is to blame? If we are talking about consensual sex (which she is), It seems to me that it takes two irresponsible people to consent to irresponsible sex. Is she arguing that women have no say? Because that is what it sounds like. In which case, her argument is not very empowering to women - they become some passive object that is acted upon instead of a subject who acts and has accountability for their decisions. Edited September 20, 2018 by pogi 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 I don't know. The more I think about her argument, the more it makes sense. This topic is hard to discuss in light of board rules, but... All unwanted pregnancy's come from a man's desire to orgasm inside a woman without protection. The woman gets nothing from this. Her pleasure isn't tied to this in anyway. Could a woman refuse? Yes, absolutely, but she isn't the one pushing for unprotected sex in virtually all cases. That would be the man. (*I'm sure there are exceptions, but the exceptions prove the rule in this case I think).
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 20 minutes ago, pogi said: Is she arguing that women have no say? Because that is what it sounds like. In which case, her argument is not very empowering to women - they become some passive object that is acted upon instead of a subject who acts and has accountability for their decisions. I read it as explaining the mechanism that causes pregnancy. It belongs to the male. So everyone needs to quit putting all (or even most of) the responsibility on the female. Yes she's a bit outrageous in her narrative, but perhaps outrageousness is what is needed to make people really think about it. In an ideal world, all children should be conceived in a stable, responsible and loving relationship. Obviously, that is not the world we live in so let's put some pressure on the men to behave responsibly. 3
SeekingUnderstanding Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I read it as explaining the mechanism that causes pregnancy. It belongs to the male. So everyone needs to quit putting all (or even most of) the responsibility on the female. Yes she's a bit outrageous in her narrative, but perhaps outrageousness is what is needed to make people really think about it. In an ideal world, all children should be conceived in a stable, responsible and loving relationship. Obviously, that is not the world we live in so let's put some pressure on the men to behave responsibly. Yes. It is designed to be provocative and extreme to get you to stop and think about the issue in a new way. 3
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I read it as explaining the mechanism that causes pregnancy. It belongs to the male. Do you want to rethink that statement? Last I checked, men can't get men pregnant, so there must be some other mechanism required that only the woman can provide. Edited September 20, 2018 by pogi 1
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, katherine the great said: So everyone needs to quit putting all (or even most of) the responsibility on the female. I agree with that. It needs to be 50/50. But I really don't think that is what she is saying.
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 On 9/18/2018 at 12:31 AM, Robert F. Smith said: How about the paradox of Roman Catholic doctrine being both anti-abortion and anti-contraceptive? My personal favorite is the one that includes no sex education or birth control in the schools, no abortion and then whining and complaining about using tax dollars to help support the single moms... 2
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, pogi said: I agree with that. It needs to be 50/50. But I really don't think that is what she is saying. No because she's fed up with women taking all the blame.
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 Just now, katherine the great said: No because she's fed up with women taking all the blame. I don't follow... How does two wrongs make a right?
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, pogi said: Do you want to rethink that statement? Last I checked, men can't get men pregnant, so there must be some other mechanism required that only the woman can provide. I'll quote her again: “unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly,” whereas women can orgasm as many times as they would like without ever getting pregnant."
Calm Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, pogi said: With the exception of rape...no. Condoms and diaphragms can be inadvertently damaged, I have known a woman where even the proper use of the pill didn't prevent pregnancy. There are many responsible women (including me) who can't take the pill and must rely on less effective means. On rare occasions tubals and vasectomies fail. So you can have two responsible adults and still have an unwanted pregnancy. A man may tell a woman he has a vasectomy and lie, is she being irresponsible if she believes him without checking his medical history? A woman can lie as well about using BC methods that are not obvious. A man or woman can intentionally damage barrier methods but to the naked eye no damage has been done. This can happen in a marriage as well as outside it. Edited September 20, 2018 by Calm
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Yes. It is designed to be provocative and extreme to get you to stop and think about the issue in a new way. Thank you.
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I'll quote her again: “unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly,” whereas women can orgasm as many times as they would like without ever getting pregnant." And I'll repeat what I said earlier. A man can't "orgasm irresponsibly" unless a woman lets him (with the exception of rape. Irresponsible use or his mechanism combined with irresponsible use of her mechanism is how unwanted babies are made - in the context of consensual sex. She dismissing the woman's role and mechanism here. Just to clarify where you personally stand - do you agree it should be 50/50? Edited September 20, 2018 by pogi
katherine the great Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 43 minutes ago, pogi said: Just to clarify where you personally stand - do you agree it should be 50/50? I'm old fashioned. I stand on the soap box that says people should get married first and then have sex and produce only wanted and well cared for babies. That paradigm, being all but absent in our culture now, I feel like most women--we're sick of men being able to just walk away from their reproductive responsibilities. Women pay the price for irresponsible sex so I'm not unhappy to see men being called out to step up their game in preventing unwanted pregnancies. If it takes some hyperbole to raise awareness, I'm fine with that. 1
pogi Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I'm old fashioned. I stand on the soap box that says people should get married first and then have sex and produce only wanted and well cared for babies. That paradigm, being all but absent in our culture now, I feel like most women--we're sick of men being able to just walk away from their reproductive responsibilities. Women pay the price for irresponsible sex so I'm not unhappy to see men being called out to step up their game in preventing unwanted pregnancies. If it takes some hyperbole to raise awareness, I'm fine with that. I'm cool with hyperbole if it is used to make a good point. Awareness is good. Men bearing more blame and responsibility is good. Saying that men are 100% to blame is not good. It is not helpful. Is she using hyperbole about that 100% figure? I hope so, but it sure doesn't look like it to me.
Amulek Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 3 hours ago, katherine the great said: I'll quote her again: “unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly,” whereas women can orgasm as many times as they would like without ever getting pregnant." I was going to stay clear of this thread because I thought it was so silly, but I'm with pogi on this one. If a women consents to having sex with a man who isn't wearing a condom (and subsequently becomes pregnant), she bears some measure of responsibility because she consented to the same risky behavior that the guy agreed to participate in. They both are responsible. The only time it makes sense to talk about the guy bearing 100% of the responsibility is when the woman does not / cannot give consent (i.e., rape).
SeekingUnderstanding Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 16 hours ago, pogi said: And I'll repeat what I said earlier. A man can't "orgasm irresponsibly" unless a woman lets him (with the exception of rape. Irresponsible use or his mechanism combined with irresponsible use of her mechanism is how unwanted babies are made - in the context of consensual sex. She dismissing the woman's role and mechanism here. Just to clarify where you personally stand - do you agree it should be 50/50? I think you are missing her point a bit. Yes women consent, but it is the man who gets all the incremental benefit from the unprotected act, and it is the man who is pushing for it. Let’s flip this around. If it was more enjoyable for a man to ejaculate outside the woman, the number of unwanted pregnancies would drop to close to zero. I’m not sure on the exact percentage of responsibility, but 50/50 is too high for the woman.
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