Mormon Leaks document on handling Child Abuse

[Abulafia]

Amulek, I can assure you that outside the Mormon Corridor,  the church does not have a good reputation  when it comes to the abuse of women and children. You may think that general perception is unfair... Catholic leaders may think the public perception of them is unfair, but it exists and it is gaining momentum. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/13/2018 at 11:59 AM, BlueDreams said:

To be fair, some of this is tied to the victims or families of addicts not wanting to attend said support groups. It's seen as the addict's problem that they need to fix, not theirs... Sometimes they could use the support and don't want it....some also just aren't as deeply effected and are fine without it or choose other means of support (therapy, friends, faith, books, etc). I also saw this same problem when I went to an AA meeting v. an al-anon meeting that was unrelated to the church...there's fewer meetings and less attendees. Likewise there are also attendants that are pressured or sometimes even mandated to attend. Due to the nature of being a victim, though it may be encouraged, most try not to insist or pressure a move they're not comfortable with. Likewise addiction groups are not necessarily all perpetrators of abuse (Though, obviously there's overlap).

With luv,

BD

We have had victims attend our family and friends support meetings. We welcome them with open arms. Our meetings are general, not specific, however. We cannot pressure anyone into attending.There are women-only groups available. If there are no groups in someone’s area, they can request the creation of one through stake leaders. Persist if they hesitate.

Meetings Church-wide can be found here:

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng

Edited September 15, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/13/2018 at 11:48 AM, changed said:

I have personally experienced this - abusers are going to support groups, and there is no support group for victims in my area.

See my response to BD above. If you want or need a group, be a mover to start one.

People are sadly but understandably reluctant to start attending support groups. We have invited many who just can’t muster the courage.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Abulafia]

Amulek, as for steps I would like to see taken.

1. Background checks on anyone working with children.

2. Setting up a helpline that is not run by church members or lawyers, but trained dispassionate folks who will put the interests of the victim first.

3. Ensure that where a crime has been committed,  police are informed.

4. Where the church, any church is found negligent, apologise to victims and ensure they get appropriate remuneration and counselling.

5. Change the culture that says that litigating against the church is akin to litigating against Jesus himself. So, recognise that the institutional church and it's leaders can make mistakes.

 

That's a start. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

This made me wonder if we have any news articles of sexual abuse from 2012 that dealt with missionaries.  I did a quick search and found two possible cases from 2012-2013 that could be the last entry:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865573471/Kaysville-man-accused-of-child-rape.html

https://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/utah-man-sentenced-for-crime-committed-on-lds-mission-in/article_a7ff4c2a-6713-11e3-87d6-001a4bcf887a.html

Most likely the second as that sounds similar to the level of behaviour reported in the summary as well as timing.  The other refers to something that hadn't happened yet with no reference to previous behaviour.

[Calm]

 

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Ironically, if the document published by MormonLeaks were truly leaked, in all it's unredacted glory, we would be able to hunt down the various individuals and see whether or not any ever were prosecuted. Why don't you ask Mr. McKnight to release the original document and stop giving shelter to predators? I suspect he knows full well that doing so would open him up to liability, and that's not his style. Putting out just enough information to try and make the church look bad on the other hand...

 

 

I believe that when asked by McKnight about the document, KN only requested they redact the identifying info...as they should.

[Calm]

 

Quote

So I guess everyone has a story behind the news stories. I hope he won't ever repeat this and hopefully is getting a lot of counseling.

Just going by stats, it is unlikely he will repeat.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/misunderstood-crimes/

Edited September 15, 2018 by Calm

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Amulek, I can assure you that outside the Mormon Corridor,  the church does not have a good reputation  when it comes to the abuse of women and children. You may think that general perception is unfair...

But for the time I spent in Utah attending BYU, my entire life has been spent outside the so-called Mormon Corridor, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what people generally think about the church.

Maybe this is an issue that concerns you greatly and you pay attention to it more than average, but honestly I don't think the church has any sort of meaningful reputation at all in this regard. 

 

[Abulafia]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

But for the time I spent in Utah attending BYU, my entire life has been spent outside the so-called Mormon Corridor, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what people generally think about the church.

Maybe this is an issue that concerns you greatly and you pay attention to it more than average, but honestly I don't think the church has any sort of meaningful reputation at all in this regard. 

 

I sincerely believe you to be wrong. The Church has, what 4,000, 000 self-identified members compared to the Catholic billions, so it's influence and power isn't as far reaching on the world stage, but... the media spotlight in recent years, when it comes to the abuse of women and children has been much more prevalent.  Not only with Mormonism, but other small, minority religions like the JWs, the Adventists,  and the scientologists.

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I sincerely believe you to be wrong. The Church has, what 4,000, 000 self-identified members compared to the Catholic billions, so it's influence and power isn't as far reaching on the world stage, but... the media spotlight in recent years, when it comes to the abuse of women and children has been much more prevalent.  Not only with Mormonism, but other small, minority religions like the JWs, the Adventists,  and the scientologists.

Up here in Washington, I don’t get those vibes at all.

[california boy]

27 minutes ago, Amulek said:

But for the time I spent in Utah attending BYU, my entire life has been spent outside the so-called Mormon Corridor, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what people generally think about the church.

Maybe this is an issue that concerns you greatly and you pay attention to it more than average, but honestly I don't think the church has any sort of meaningful reputation at all in this regard. 

 

You do realize that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ranks as the lest liked Christian religion in America in every single age group in America according to PEW Research Center.

The younger the group, the less liked the church is.  It is at the absolutely very bottom of any religion and below atheists in the age group of 18-29 year olds.  

[Amulek]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

You do realize that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ranks as the lest liked Christian religion in America in every single age group in America according to PEW Research Center.

The younger the group, the less liked the church is.  It is at the absolutely very bottom of any religion and below atheists in the age group of 18-29 year olds.  

And the reason for that dislike is because of our reputation with abused women and children as was posited earlier? 

Sorry, not buying it.

If you ask the average person on the street to name the groups / organizations with the worst track records for handling situations of abuse with respect to women and children, I would be shocked if the Church was anywhere on their radar. 

 

[Abulafia]

25 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And the reason for that dislike is because of our reputation with abused women and children as was posited earlier? 

Sorry, not buying it.

If you ask the average person on the street to name the groups / organizations with the worst track records for handling situations of abuse with respect to women and children, I would be shocked if the Church was anywhere on their radar. 

 

30 years ago, my very non-mormon lecturer at college (UK) pointed out that I should be wary of *patriarchal* religions such as Mormonism. 30 years ago. Things haven't got better. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

You do realize that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ranks as the lest liked Christian religion in America in every single age group in America according to PEW Research Center.

It has always been that way though since they started doing these things iirc; we are consistently not liked unless someone personally knows a Mormon, then the positive opinions increase dramatically (I assume this is probably pretty typical of most groups (personal contact increases comfort level, etc) 

[california boy]

29 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And the reason for that dislike is because of our reputation with abused women and children as was posited earlier? 

Sorry, not buying it.

If you ask the average person on the street to name the groups / organizations with the worst track records for handling situations of abuse with respect to women and children, I would be shocked if the Church was anywhere on their radar. 

 

The PEW Research Center does not list the reasons for the dislike.  Nor did I claim any.  I was only disputing your claim that you don't think the church is disliked.  

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

It has always been that way though since they started doing these things iirc; we are consistently not liked unless someone personally knows a Mormon, then the positive opinions increase dramatically (I assume this is probably pretty typical of most groups (personal contact increases comfort level, etc) 

That is probably true.  It still doesn't mean that, as Amulek tried to claim the church is liked outside the Mormon corridor.  It is not.  There are probably multiple reasons for that hostility towards the church.

[Abulafia]

31 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And the reason for that dislike is because of our reputation with abused women and children as was posited earlier? 

Sorry, not buying it.

If you ask the average person on the street to name the groups / organizations with the worst track records for handling situations of abuse with respect to women and children, I would be shocked if the Church was anywhere on their radar. 

 

Whoa.  I didn't argue that the *dislike* was based solely on abuse. I argued that the church doesn't  have a good reputation when it comes to it's treatment of sexual abuse. It doesn't. 

The only people arguing the church has the *gold standard* for its treatment of abuse are church leaders... and even fellow mormons such as Jana Reiss were quick to offer an opposing opinion.

 

https://religionnews.com/2016/02/02/mormon-statement-on-child-abuse-move-along-folks-we-dont-have-a-problem/

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, california boy said:

That is probably true.  It still doesn't mean that, as Amulek tried to claim the church is liked outside the Mormon corridor.  It is not.  There are probably multiple reasons for that hostility towards the church.

For goodness' sake let's be real: she both is liked and not and everything in-between. Anyone can see this if they get out enough.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Whoa.  I didn't argue that the *dislike* was based solely on abuse. I argued that the church doesn't  have a good reputation when it comes to it's treatment of sexual abuse. It doesn't. 

The only people arguing the church has the *gold standard* for its treatment of abuse are church leaders... and even fellow mormons such as Jana Reiss were quick to offer an opposing opinion.

 

https://religionnews.com/2016/02/02/mormon-statement-on-child-abuse-move-along-folks-we-dont-have-a-problem/

I think you need to stay better abreast of what is actually going on with the timing and technical difficulties associated with publishing these articles, which is ungraciously acknowledged in the blog. The latest: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

For goodness' sake let's be real: she both is liked and not and everything in-between. Anyone can see this if they get out enough.

I am just linking the research.  You can interpret it any way you need to.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

That is probably true.  It still doesn't mean that, as Amulek tried to claim the church is liked outside the Mormon corridor.  It is not.  There are probably multiple reasons for that hostility towards the church.

From what .I have heard over the decades, we are known first and foremost for polygamy...and that has a big ew factor these days for many****.  Missionaries are up there as well and while .I doubt if there is anything held personally against them, it is awkward having them come to the door and having to say no thank you, not interested, etc.

****https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-moment-67951

Quote

And then there’s the independent anti-Mormon ad mentioning polygamy that helped sink Matt Salmon’s bid for the Arizona governorship in 2002.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think you need to stay better abreast of what is actually going on with the timing and technical difficulties associated with publishing these articles, which is ungraciously acknowledged in the blog. The latest: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse

 

 

Jana Reiss recognised that at the end of the article but it doesn't detract from any of the issues she mentioned.

I have read the Newsroom Article before, this part pertinent: -

*We are unaware of any organization that does more than the Church to stop and prevent abuse.*. 

Sadly, without concrete policy change, all those words are just that...words. As Jana points out, other churches have done much more in concrete terms to improve safety  and minimise risk to children.

Question... in the 2001 deposition in the Frank Curtis case, the guy from risk assessment (Dwayne Liddell) admitted that

"The Risk Management department has never conducted a survey to determine the extent to which child sexual abuse happens within the church membership"

also..

"The church does not use screening forms with respect to church members who are called to work with children.  They do not screen “because the church is founded on religious tenets and is governed by ecclesiastical leaders. It is not part of the program.”

and..

“Sexual abuse is a moral transgression and is dealt with in an ecclesiastical manner.  It is a risk that is managed by the ecclesiastical leaders according to the scripture and tenets of the church. The actions the church leadership has taken with respect to the loss ultimates are adequate.”    

 

 

 

Has anything changed? 

 

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

*We are unaware of any organization that does more than the Church to stop and prevent abuse.*. 

If the LDS church does not run background checks, then every single school system does more than the church to stop and prevent abuse.

[Abulafia]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If the LDS church does not run background checks, then every single school system does more than the church to stop and prevent abuse.

Exactly. Exactly. Thankyou. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If the LDS church does not run background checks, then every single school system does more than the church to stop and prevent abuse.

Not necessarily so, there could be another aspect the Church promotes that is more effective than background checks.  I don't think at this point one can do anything with that claim the Church makes besides accept it on faith though...or not.

(not saying background checks are bad, they should be made more effective and accessible for small organizations  and those that use volunteers heavily)

Edited September 15, 2018 by Calm