Interesting account of the martyrdom of Joseph Smith

[carbon dioxide]

I visited another board and came upon an account given by a non-Mormon by the name of William M. Daniels.  In his account he gives a different perspective of how Joseph Smith died.  His account has Joseph not being shot inside the jail and not be wounded as he left.    His account includes the following taken from https://www.deilataylor.com/correct-account-murders-generals-joseph-hyrum-smith/

"He sprung into the window but just as he was preparing to descend, he saw such an array of bayonets below, that he caught by the window casing, where he hung by his ands and feet, with his head to the north, feet to the south, and his body winging down wards. He hung in that position three or four minutes, during which time he exclaimed, two or three times, “O, Lord my God!!!” and feel to the ground.

While he was hanging in that situation, Col. Williams hallooed, “shoot him! God d___n him! shoot the d____d rascal!”

However, none fired at him. He seemed to fall easy. He struck partly on his right shoulder and back, his neck and head reaching the ground a little before his feet. He rolled instantly on his face. From this position he was taken by a young man, who sprung from the other side of the fence who held a pewter fife in his hand,–was bare-foot and bare-headed, having on no coat—with his pants rolled above his knees, and shirt sleeves above his elbows. He set President Smith agains(t) the South side of the well-curb, that was situated a few feet from the jail. While doing this, the savage muttered aloud, “This is Old Jo; I know him. I know you, Old Jo.”

Then Col Williams orders Joseph to executed by 4 men.  As they prepared it says:

"While they were making preparations, and the muskets were raised to their faces, President Smith’s eyes rested upon them with a calm and quiet resignation. He betrayed no agitated feelings and the expression upon countenance seemed to be token his inly prayer to be, “O, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

The fire was simultaneous. A slight cringe of the body was all the indication of pain that he betrayed when the balls struck him. He fell upon his face. One ball then entered the back part of his body. This is the ball that many people have supposed struck him about the time he was in the window. But this is a mistake. I was close by him, and I know he was not hit with a ball, until after he was seated by the well-curb."

Then somebody tries to behead Joseph Smith and the following happens:

"He raised the knife and was in the attitude of striking, when a light, so sudden and powerful, burst from the heavens upon the bloody scene, (passing its vivid chain between Joseph and his murderers,) that they were struck with terrified awe and filled with consternation. This light, in its appearance and potency, baffles all powers of description. The arm of the ruffian, that held the knife, fell powerless; the muskets of the four, who fired, fell to the ground, and they all stood like marble statues, not having the power to move a single limb or their bodies."

Anyone have any thoughts on this account.   The site says this account was in the LDS Church vaults and published digitally in 2003 and is at the Harold B Lee Library.

Edited July 8, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

He claims to be an eyewitness, but his version is different enough I think his presence needs to be confirmed by others.  Getting attention by claiming one is an eyewitness to unusual events has been a pasttime that has been going on for eons, imo (the last added so I don't get a CFR as way too lazy to document that tonight  ),

-----

Some info on Daniels' account is here, more in the article than just below (I don't know why BYU Studies screws up copying f's and th's at times,but not correcting them tonight).

Quote

Bullock recorded signi cant details by Bedell on what happened out- side the jail during the attack at Carthage. When asked about Mormon

Warsaw militia member William M. Daniels’s July 4, 1844, account, he con- rmed “in the main Daniels statements are correct.”5 He provided in his a davit information about the Warsaw militia’s intention to kill Joseph Smith, their movements on the prairie, and their role in the deed. Bedell also agreed with Daniels’s account that “Joseph a er he jumped out of the window lived some time.” is assertion was supported by an independent account given the evening a er the murder by a citizen of Warsaw and written August 13, 1844. Henry Matthias, who lived on Mr. Pinchback’s farm four miles east of Warsaw village, testi ed: “Charles Gullier said he then shot him [Joseph] at the window, from the door, or near the door, and Vorus shot him from the outside of the prison; and he fell out upon the ground; and that Vorus saw him stretch out his hand towards the well curb, when he laid hold on him and turned him on his back, and struck and said, you are the damned old Chie ain, we have him a er a long time. Now go and see your spiritual wives in hell.”6 Joseph was then shot until dead. 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/file/3770/download?token=qib4Wf94

Found this in the footnote that suggests caution is needed to figure out what was originally to Daniels and what was added by his publisher:

Quote

 e Daniels account was later elaborated and expanded with information not provided by Daniels but included by the publisher, Lyman O. Little eld, who distributed the pamphlet A Correct Account of the Murder of Generals Joseph and Hyrum Smith, at Carthage, on the 27th Day of June, 1844; by Wm. M. Daniels, an Eye Witness (Nauvoo: Little eld, 1845). Dean Jessee addresses issues of accuracy in this account in “Return to Carthage,” 14–18. 

Quote

Martyrdom of Joseph and Hiram Smith in Carthage Jail, June 27, 1844. Tinted litho- graph by C. G. Crehen based on an image by G. W. Fasel. for Nagel & Weingartner, and dedicated to Orson Hyde, New York, 1851. Courtesy Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division. is lithograph was made in September 1851 based on an image printed by William Daniels in 1845. Even though Daniels acknowledged during the subsequent trial of the murderers that his initial image and the scene it depicted was largely inaccurate, some details are consistent with John Taylor’s account. Daniels’s image was likely based on a now lost 1844 painting by an uniden- ti ed artist used in Daniels’s presentations sharing what he observed outside the jail during the martyrdom. 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I visited another board and came upon an account given by a non-Mormon by the name of William M. Daniels.  In his account he gives a different perspective of how Joseph Smith died.  His account has Joseph not being shot inside the jail and not be wounded as he left.    His account includes the following taken from https://www.deilataylor.com/correct-account-murders-generals-joseph-hyrum-smith/

.......................................

That Joseph was shot while sitting against the well has been well-known to historians for many decades.  These additional details are fascinating.

[Calm]

If you register for a free account with J.sTOR, you can read up to six articles for free a month, including the one cited above dealing with the accuracy of Daniels' account (which he apparently shared for fame and/or fortune):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23285869?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Quote

Return to Carthage: Writing the History of Joseph Smith's Martyrdom

Dean C. Jessee

Journal of Mormon History

Vol. 8 (1981), pp. 3-19

Published by: University of Illinois Press; Mormon History Association

Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23285869

 

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That Joseph was shot while sitting against the well has been well-known to historians for many decades.  These additional details are fascinating.

Here’s info that this account has been discredited:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/17697-joseph-smiths-death/?do=findComment&comment=1208023155

From BYU Studies:

  Quote 

William M. Daniels became the chief prosecution witness in the trial of those accused of murdering Joseph and Hyrum in May 1845. Just two weeks before the trial he published a twenty-four page booklet on "the names and proceedings of the principal murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith," which contains the account of the alleged attempt to behead the Prophet related by Laub. The booklet, because of its exaggerations and untruths, was used effectively by the defense to discredit Daniels as a witness; though some of Daniels' account has persisted in Mormon folklore--and has even been repeated in some nonofficial books--it has not been accepted in any official way and in fact was attacked by B. H. Roberts as "incredible." 

From BH Roberts Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 2 CHAPTER LX:

  Quote 

ALLEGED MIRACLES AT THE MARTYRDOM OF JOSEPH AND HYRUM SMITH

It was inevitable, perhaps, that something miraculous should be alleged as connected with the death of Joseph Smith; that both myth and legend, those parasites of truth, should attach themselves to the Prophet's career. His character was too extraordinary, his mission too great, and his achievements too splendid to escape such a fate; and therefore both myth and legend are supplied in the stories detailing the scenes attendant upon the Prophet's death. Hence we have the legend of the body dragged to a sitting posture by the old well curb by the Missouri ruffian.

Edited July 8, 2018 by JulieM

[Nevo]

B. H. Roberts was right.

Oaks and Hill, in The Carthage Conspiracy, wrote: "Though apparently comforting to the rank and file of Mormons still mourning their fallen leader, Daniels's account of the wondrous light was never accepted in official Church accounts and has been rejected by responsible Mormon historians" (pp. 89-90).

It made for a pretty good painting though:

Edited July 8, 2018 by Nevo

[ALarson]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

"He raised the knife and was in the attitude of striking, when a light, so sudden and powerful, burst from the heavens upon the bloody scene, (passing its vivid chain between Joseph and his murderers,) that they were struck with terrified awe and filled with consternation. This light, in its appearance and potency, baffles all powers of description. The arm of the ruffian, that held the knife, fell powerless; the muskets of the four, who fired, fell to the ground, and they all stood like marble statues, not having the power to move a single limb or their bodies."

I'm surprised anyone here is taking this account seriously.  That paragraph above reads like poorly written fiction.  I'm glad that Daniels was discredited at the trial, but he probably hurt the case against the "ruffians".   He certainly didn't help.

Edited July 8, 2018 by ALarson

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I visited another board and came upon an account given by a non-Mormon by the name of William M. Daniels.  In his account he gives a different perspective of how Joseph Smith died.  His account has Joseph not being shot inside the jail and not be wounded as he left.    His account includes the following taken from https://www.deilataylor.com/correct-account-murders-generals-joseph-hyrum-smith/

"He sprung into the window but just as he was preparing to descend, he saw such an array of bayonets below, that he caught by the window casing, where he hung by his ands and feet, with his head to the north, feet to the south, and his body winging down wards. He hung in that position three or four minutes, during which time he exclaimed, two or three times, “O, Lord my God!!!” and feel to the ground.

While he was hanging in that situation, Col. Williams hallooed, “shoot him! God d___n him! shoot the d____d rascal!”

However, none fired at him. He seemed to fall easy. He struck partly on his right shoulder and back, his neck and head reaching the ground a little before his feet. He rolled instantly on his face. From this position he was taken by a young man, who sprung from the other side of the fence who held a pewter fife in his hand,–was bare-foot and bare-headed, having on no coat—with his pants rolled above his knees, and shirt sleeves above his elbows. He set President Smith agains(t) the South side of the well-curb, that was situated a few feet from the jail. While doing this, the savage muttered aloud, “This is Old Jo; I know him. I know you, Old Jo.”

Then Col Williams orders Joseph to executed by 4 men.  As they prepared it says:

"While they were making preparations, and the muskets were raised to their faces, President Smith’s eyes rested upon them with a calm and quiet resignation. He betrayed no agitated feelings and the expression upon countenance seemed to be token his inly prayer to be, “O, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

The fire was simultaneous. A slight cringe of the body was all the indication of pain that he betrayed when the balls struck him. He fell upon his face. One ball then entered the back part of his body. This is the ball that many people have supposed struck him about the time he was in the window. But this is a mistake. I was close by him, and I know he was not hit with a ball, until after he was seated by the well-curb."

Then somebody tries to behead Joseph Smith and the following happens:

"He raised the knife and was in the attitude of striking, when a light, so sudden and powerful, burst from the heavens upon the bloody scene, (passing its vivid chain between Joseph and his murderers,) that they were struck with terrified awe and filled with consternation. This light, in its appearance and potency, baffles all powers of description. The arm of the ruffian, that held the knife, fell powerless; the muskets of the four, who fired, fell to the ground, and they all stood like marble statues, not having the power to move a single limb or their bodies."

Anyone have any thoughts on this account.   The site says this account was in the LDS Church vaults and published digitally in 2003 and is at the Harold B Lee Library.

Poppycock. I may be tempted to believe such rubbish if Hyrum had not been killed by the mob, but this account is incredible to me. I have no sources to cite, but my own gut. Either way the mob plainly ran Joseph out of the cell, so it is perfectly believable that they went up the stairs, and were firing through the door. Otherwise, the other injuries are not explained. Do I think that those at the door then waited? Absolutely not. Nor does the evidence corroborate the tale of Joseph hanging at the window, and how he got a bullet in his back. It seems from the death mask made of Joseph that his face was disfigured by hitting the ground. This is not likely to happen when being shot simultaneously from the front by four muskets - that force would throw anyone back - nor again to be hit in the back this way. I believe it to plainly be a fabrication to make the mob out to look better in Gentile eyes. However, it is possible that he was propped up against a well to be finished off - but this doesn't explain the facial disfigurement. They had essentially no reason to kill Hyrum at all. It was plainly murder for which they didn't want to get charged. It was simply "vigilante justice" and was not defensible - having more than one perpetrator doesn't make it any more defensible.. I believe the accounts of the other party shot, John Taylor, and the uninjured Richards, are plainly more believable and consistent with the facts.

[ALarson]

36 minutes ago, Nevo said:

B. H. Roberts was right.

Oaks and Hill, in The Carthage Conspiracy, wrote: "Though apparently comforting to the rank and file of Mormons still mourning their fallen leader, Daniels's account of the wondrous light was never accepted in official Church accounts and has been rejected by responsible Mormon historians" (pp. 89-90).

Do you believe that Joseph was shot while sitting at the well?  I'd love to hear what you believe regarding whether that part is true.

[Thinking]

18 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'm surprised anyone here is taking this account seriously.  That paragraph above reads like poorly written fiction.

When did being a good writer become a requisite to being a witness?

If you're going to discredit something, discredit it for the right reason.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Thinking said:

When did being a good writer become a requisite to being a witness?

If you're going to discredit something, discredit it for the right reason.

That had already been done by the posts right above mine (by Julie and Nevo).  Want me to repeat it and duplicate what they stated  (I agreed with what they wrote since I had read that information previously regarding Daniel's account....I upvoted their comments)?  I was just adding that it obviously reads as fiction to me.  This is a discussion board and I have every right to add my thoughts and opinions on what was posted in the OP for discussion.

It does read like a poorly written novel or fiction, IMO.  

Do you disagree?

Quote

"From this position he was taken by a young man, who sprung from the other side of the fence who held a pewter fife in his hand,–was bare-foot and bare-headed, having on no coat—with his pants rolled above his knees, and shirt sleeves above his elbows. He set President Smith agains(t) the South side of the well-curb, that was situated a few feet from the jail. While doing this, the savage muttered aloud, “This is Old Jo; I know him. I know you, Old Jo.”

Quote

"He raised the knife and was in the attitude of striking, when a light, so sudden and powerful, burst from the heavens upon the bloody scene, (passing its vivid chain between Joseph and his murderers,) that they were struck with terrified awe and filled with consternation."

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Here’s info that this account has been discredited:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/17697-joseph-smiths-death/?do=findComment&comment=1208023155

From BYU Studies:

  Quote 

William M. Daniels became the chief prosecution witness in the trial of those accused of murdering Joseph and Hyrum in May 1845. Just two weeks before the trial he published a twenty-four page booklet on "the names and proceedings of the principal murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith," which contains the account of the alleged attempt to behead the Prophet related by Laub. The booklet, because of its exaggerations and untruths, was used effectively by the defense to discredit Daniels as a witness; though some of Daniels' account has persisted in Mormon folklore--and has even been repeated in some nonofficial books--it has not been accepted in any official way and in fact was attacked by B. H. Roberts as "incredible." 

From BH Roberts Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 2 CHAPTER LX:

  Quote 

ALLEGED MIRACLES AT THE MARTYRDOM OF JOSEPH AND HYRUM SMITH

It was inevitable, perhaps, that something miraculous should be alleged as connected with the death of Joseph Smith; that both myth and legend, those parasites of truth, should attach themselves to the Prophet's career. His character was too extraordinary, his mission too great, and his achievements too splendid to escape such a fate; and therefore both myth and legend are supplied in the stories detailing the scenes attendant upon the Prophet's death. Hence we have the legend of the body dragged to a sitting posture by the old well curb by the Missouri ruffian.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was just reading https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq , and now realize that there is no evidence for Joseph being shot while sitting against the well.  That doesn't mean that the body was not dragged to that  position.  Only that he was not likely shot at there.

[Thinking]

17 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is a discussion board and I have every right to add my thoughts and opinions on what was posted in the OP for discussion.

And I have every right to point out what I believe to be the weakness of those thoughts and opinions.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

And I have every right to point out what I believe to be the weakness of those thoughts and opinions.

I'm fine if you think his account (pamphlet) was well written.  I certainly respect your right to feel that way.

Do you have an opinion regarding his account?  Anything to add to this discussion?

[JulieM]

42 minutes ago, Thinking said:

When did being a good writer become a requisite to being a witness?

If you're going to discredit something, discredit it for the right reason.

It had already been discredited.  Others are free to add their thoughts here.  Do you think it’s an accurate account?

Edited July 8, 2018 by JulieM

[Thinking]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'm fine if you think his account (pamphlet) was well written.  I certainly respect your right to feel that way.

Do you have an opinion regarding his account?  Anything to add to this discussion?

I don't have an opinion regarding this account. I am interested in reading what others think about it. I simply think it should discredited (or credited) for the right reasons.

[JulieM]

18 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I don't have an opinion regarding this account. I am interested in reading what others think about it. I simply think it should discredited (or credited) for the right reasons.

And it does read more like a novel (I doubted it was factual even before I looked into it more and found what I posted).  That’s a legitimate criticism and part of what discredited him.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Poppycock. I may be tempted to believe such rubbish if Hyrum had not been killed by the mob, but this account is incredible to me. I have no sources to cite, but my own gut. Either way the mob plainly ran Joseph out of the cell, so it is perfectly believable that they went up the stairs, and were firing through the door. Otherwise, the other injuries are not explained. Do I think that those at the door then waited? Absolutely not. Nor does the evidence corroborate the tale of Joseph hanging at the window, and how he got a bullet in his back. It seems from the death mask made of Joseph that his face was disfigured by hitting the ground. This is not likely to happen when being shot simultaneously from the front by four muskets - that force would throw anyone back - nor again to be hit in the back this way. I believe it to plainly be a fabrication to make the mob out to look better in Gentile eyes. However, it is possible that he was propped up against a well to be finished off - but this doesn't explain the facial disfigurement. They had essentially no reason to kill Hyrum at all. It was plainly murder for which they didn't want to get charged. It was simply "vigilante justice" and was not defensible - having more than one perpetrator doesn't make it any more defensible.. I believe the accounts of the other party shot, John Taylor, and the uninjured Richards, are plainly more believable and consistent with the facts.

Thanks for all the comments.  It was the first time I had come across this account so I did not know what to make of it.  However I would respond to a few points.

1. An account that may appear "incredible" does not mean that it is wrong.  Many would assert that the Joseph Smith "First Vision" to be "incredible" and I think most of US would assert that one should not dismiss it simply based on that. 

2.  The mob was not one based on moral values.  It was plan murder to kill Joseph Smith.  Joseph Smith was not sentenced to death by any court.  This was mob justice and mob justice constitutes murder in this case. Hyrum was his brother and as far as they would be concerned, if he got killed it would not have bothered them in the least. 

3. The account in question does not make the mob look better at all.  It simply has them executing an unarmed man for no reason and it has a miraculous light preventing them from beheading Joseph.  That would signal divine disapproval for what they had done. 

4.  Not everything in John Taylor account is accurate.  I do know that John Taylor says that 2 people died by Joseph Smith gun but that did not happen.  In fairness to John, this fact was told to him by someone so it is just hearsay but there is no evidence of that 3 men shot by Joseph Smith that anyone died of their injuries.

I would say that we should not change the official story regarding the this event though there may be stuff that occurred that we don't know about.  That is always the case when something is seen from different eyes from a different viewpoint.

One more point, in fairness to the account, it does not say that the 4 men shot Joseph Smith from the front.  It just says his body was set against the curb but he could have been in a number of different positions at that point.  He could have been sitting down with his shoulder turned towards them.  It does not say that he was standing face forward towards the men so we should not assume the account demands we read that into it.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

And it does read more like a novel (I doubted it was factual even before I looked into it more and found what I posted).  That’s a legitimate criticism and part of what discredited him.

I agree.  It reads as a fictional account that was based on a horrible event and didn't need embellishment to make it a tragedy.  I agree with what B. H. Roberts wrote:

Quote

It was inevitable, perhaps, that something miraculous should be alleged as connected with the death of Joseph Smith; that both myth and legend, those parasites of truth, should attach themselves to the Prophet's career. His character was too extraordinary, his mission too great, and his achievements too splendid to escape such a fate; and therefore both myth and legend are supplied in the stories detailing the scenes attendant upon the Prophet's death. 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by ALarson

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Thanks for all the comments.  It was the first time I had come across this account so I did not know what to make of it.  However I would respond to a few points.

3. The account in question does not make the mob look better at all.  It simply has them executing an unarmed man for no reason and it has a miraculous light preventing them from beheading Joseph.  That would signal divine disapproval for what they had done. 

I think the account serves to hide the true perpetrators - those going up the stairs - and apparently one or two who got in a shot from the ground. I think it also serves to make the mob look collected rather than its true angry and uncontrolled nature - disregarding the rule of law. That the miraculous light waited to appear could be looked upon with approval of the acts up to that point, and a miracle to stop the introduced evil character of the boy - notice the gunmen are not so characterized.

Quote

4.  Not everything in John Taylor account is accurate.  I do know that John Taylor says that 2 people died by Joseph Smith gun but that did not happen.  In fairness to John, this fact was told to him by someone so it is just hearsay but there is no evidence of that 3 men shot by Joseph Smith that anyone died of their injuries.

I would say that we should not change the official story regarding the this event though there may be stuff that occurred that we don't know about.  That is always the case when something is seen from different eyes from a different viewpoint.

One more point, in fairness to the account, it does not say that the 4 men shot Joseph Smith from the front.  It just says his body was set against the curb but he could have been in a number of different positions at that point.  He could have been sitting down with his shoulder turned towards them.  It does not say that he was standing face forward towards the men so we should not assume the account demands we read that into it.

I did not mean to imply that the accounts of John Taylor and Richards were perfectly accurate, but that on the issues of Joseph Smith, that they are definitely consistent with the other facts, and I deem them believable. We have to remember that John Taylor was severely wounded and would not be perfectly privy to what happened after Joseph Smith went out the window nor if Joseph actually hit anyone with his pistol. I do not think he was making up facts or was purposefully misleading.

Using the firing squad motif implies a purpose of hiding whose bullet actually did the killing, and lessening the "guilt" of each gunman. For this reason, they typically fired from the same angle so that no one knew exactly whose bullet went where. From this standpoint a bullet in the back is just not credible. It is most obviously an attempt to hide the fact that Joseph had already been shot in the back when he left the room, and the stigma of shooting someone in the back in that day and age.

[Jeanne]

Can anyone understand my disbelief now?   Stories. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Jeanne

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Can anyone understand my disbelief now?   Stories. 

No, sorry.

[jbarm]

I don't understand why you hang out on this forum just to point out your disbelief. 

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, jbarm said:

I don't understand why you hang out on this forum just to point out your disbelief. 

I don't understand it either.  I apologize for being here..I know that there is no else on the board like me.

[ALarson]

22 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don't have an opinion regarding this account. I am interested in reading what others think about it. I simply think it should discredited (or credited) for the right reasons.

I completely agree.  And the poor manner in which it was written (exaggerations and embellishments) is one of the things that discredits this account.  Because he did that with his writing, it reads like fiction.  

Edited July 9, 2018 by ALarson