Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: Find peace. Nice trolling attempt but you came on a little strong. That's not a troll. You said you heard of an example in the midwest and I asked for a CFR for that midwest event and you posted about the UK. You avoided answering the CFR and then called me a troll. 1
bluebell Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: CFR where I said anything about “increasing the burden on women.” Thanks. But related question: My sons were responsible for mowing our lawn and taking care of the trash. By making this their responsibility did I somehow “increase the burden” on my wife and dauthers? Not you personally. But children need to be cared for, diapers need to be changed, etc. If men refuse to help with children not their own, and the need for help exists, then the burden to fill those needs falls completely on women. 3
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 11 hours ago, USU78 said: And there you go. The divide can never be breached. No one can ever be one with anybody else. And children must necessarily suffer because adults are incapable of seeing good in the other. And interpreting comments like mine as dividing is the only reason why the divide exists for some people. I see no division between men and women even if there are divisions between individuals.
USU78 Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Calm said: And interpreting comments like mine as dividing is the only reason why the divide exists for some people. I see no division between men and women even if there are divisions between individuals. I pray you're right
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Every human being must adjust who they are to the limits of the people around them, but because one aspect of one's being cannot be expressed does not mean other aspects must remain silent or even that one must always be suppressed in that way all the time. Speaking generally, there are hopefully few in so limited circumstances (horrible prisons, extremely dysfunctional families, countries with very repressive regimes) that the only free expression exists in their minds and might not even be there if they have never understood that as possible or fear that even thinking will bring pain or death. Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm 2
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Unaffiliated said: That's not a troll. You said you heard of an example in the midwest and I asked for a CFR for that midwest event and you posted about the UK. You avoided answering the CFR and then called me a troll. You can always sue someone for defamation of character, I believe police may go after people for filing false reports, obstruction of justice. Parents risk losing custody of their children if it is found they have made false accusations against their former partners. http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/personal-injury/legal-recourse-falsely-accused-crime.html Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Quote Depending upon the jurisdiction, a false police report may be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. Misdemeanor charges may result in jail terms of one year or less. Typically, the defendant must also pay fines. If a person is charged with a felony, they may be looking at more than a year in jail and substantial fines. The person who made the false report may also be liable in a civil suit, such as if their report caused damage to another’s reputation. At the federal level, the consequences become even more serious. A false report that involves terrorism is treated the most severely, with prison terms of between seven and 20 years being common. The courts may also consider a false report of terrorism as a violent crime even if no violence occurred. https://thelawdictionary.org/article/what-happens-when-you-file-a-false-police-report/ Apparently charging someone for making false reports is common enough in Utah It rates its own "we will help you if you were stupid enough to step in it" lawyer ad: https://intermountainlegal.net/criminal-defense/filing-a-false-police-report/ report of mother losing custody for false report: http://www.saveservices.org/2013/05/false-accusing-mom-loses-child-custody/ Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, bluebell said: But children need to be cared for, diapers need to be changed, etc. If men refuse to help with children not their own, and the need for help exists, then the burden to fill those needs falls completely on women. I’m a rather simple bloke. If women tell me that I shouldn’t be trusted to help with their children, then I’m not going to help with their children, need or no need. You stated above that we shouldn’t be happy with this solution, but I genuinely don’t see any other. 2
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I’m a rather simple bloke. If women tell me that I shouldn’t be trusted to help with their children, then I’m not going to help with their children, need or no need. You stated above that we shouldn’t be happy with this solution, but I genuinely don’t see any other. While one may be wise to not help in ways that bring you into direct contact with children, there are often many other ways to help, such as offering to help carry things so the parent can carry the child. Or helping with other responsibilities to free up more time for parenting. Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm 1
bluebell Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I’m a rather simple bloke. If women tell me that I shouldn’t be trusted to help with their children, then I’m not going to help with their children, need or no need. You stated above that we shouldn’t be happy with this solution, but I genuinely don’t see any other. If a woman specifically tells you that you can’t be trusted with her kids, then yes, definitely don’t help with her kids.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: While one may be wise to not help in ways that bring you into direct contact with children, there are often many other ways to help, such as offering to help carry things so the parent can carry the child. Or helping with other responsibilities to free up more time for parenting. Nope. Sorry, but you don't get to treat me like a suspected paedophile and then expect me to carry your handbag. 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 46 minutes ago, bluebell said: If a woman specifically tells you that you can’t be trusted with her kids, then yes, definitely don’t help with her kids. Exactly. I was sitting in front of a family in sacrament meeting yesterday. The father was holding their baby daughter on his his lap. She dropped her toy over the back of my pew. I picked it up and returned it to her. So she dropped it again. I picked it up to return it to her again, but this time I held it between my cupped hands to hide it and then opened them for the surprise. Both dad and daughter smiled. I smiled. Daughter dropped her toy again. I returned it in my cupped hands again. Mum did not smile. In fact, she scowled. At dad. Then she snatched both toy and daughter away from danger. Message received, loud and clear. I've learnt to avoid such mothers (and their children). They scare me. 2
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Exactly. I was sitting in front of a family in sacrament meeting yesterday. The father was holding their baby daughter on his his lap. She dropped her toy over the back of my pew. I picked it up and returned it to her. So she dropped it again. I picked it up to return it to her again, but this time I held it between my cupped hands to hide it and then opened them for the surprise. Both dad and daughter smiled. I smiled. Daughter dropped her toy again. I returned it in my cupped hands again. Mum did not smile. In fact, she scowled. At dad. Then she snatched both toy and daughter away from danger. Message received, loud and clear. I've learnt to avoid such mothers (and their children). They scare me. Do you look threatening to mothers of children?
kllindley Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: Do you look threatening to mothers of children? LOL. Such victim blaming! Can you imagine what the response would be if genders were reversed?
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: LOL. Such victim blaming! Can you imagine what the response would be if genders were reversed? Unfortunately it's a serious question. Women are more trusting around men who look like Zac Efron and Hugh Jackman, then men who look like Gary Busey. So it's a legit question in 2018.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: Do you look threatening to mothers of children? Not generally. After church yesterday, another mother handed me one of her twins so that she could deal with the other one. And I recently spent most of our ward BBQ with another mother's child on my shoulders. He was so placid that I actually forgot he was up there until it was time to go home, and then I had to stop someone to ask who exactly was on my shoulders. 7 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: Women are more trusting around men who look like Zac Efron and Hugh Jackman, then men who look like Gary Busey. I had to Google two of those three. I don't look like any of them.
juliann Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Exactly. I was sitting in front of a family in sacrament meeting yesterday. The father was holding their baby daughter on his his lap. She dropped her toy over the back of my pew. I picked it up and returned it to her. So she dropped it again. I picked it up to return it to her again, but this time I held it between my cupped hands to hide it and then opened them for the surprise. Both dad and daughter smiled. I smiled. Daughter dropped her toy again. I returned it in my cupped hands again. Mum did not smile. In fact, she scowled. At dad. Then she snatched both toy and daughter away from danger. Message received, loud and clear. I've learnt to avoid such mothers (and their children). They scare me. I'm pretty sure you completely misread that. It was sacrament meeting. It is really annoying when kids start dropping stuff just to make people pick it up and there is a 99% chance that is exactly what is going to happen. A mother who knows what is happening would stop it before it gets out of control. It wasn't anything personal, like you said, she was scowling at dad who should have known better than to get the kid wound up. Next time I suggest giving the toy to the mom. You will get a big smile.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, juliann said: I'm pretty sure you completely misread that. I appreciate this attempt! This is not a family who worry about their kids getting 'out of control' or 'wound up'. Edited July 23, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan
kllindley Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, juliann said: I'm pretty sure you completely misread that Is that an appropriate response for me to use when a woman shares that a man made a comment or looked at her in a way that felt threatening to her? Edited July 23, 2018 by kllindley 1
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, kllindley said: Is that an appropriate response for me to use when a woman shared that a man made a comment or looked at her in a way that felt threatening to her? Very valid point.
kllindley Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: Unfortunately it's a serious question. Women are more trusting around men who look like Zac Efron and Hugh Jackman, then men who look like Gary Busey. So it's a legit question in 2018. Just like I'm serious when I hear some women complaining about a men looking at their breasts and I want to ask them what effect they were going for when they are prominently displaying most of them. "Well, I want guys to notice them, but not guys like that!" And, no. I'm not suggesting that any woman's choice of clothing or substance use gives a man any excuse to sexually assault or harrass a woman. Nothing a woman can do makes it okay for a man to act that way.
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, kllindley said: Just like I'm serious when I hear some women complaining about a men looking at their breasts and I want to ask them what effect they were going for when they are prominently displaying most of them. "Well, I want guys to notice them, but not guys like that!" And, no. I'm not suggesting that any woman's choice of clothing or substance use gives a man any excuse to sexually assault or harrass a woman. Nothing a woman can do makes it okay for a man to act that way. So we are getting to an important point. A lot of women are ok with men they find attractive acting a certain way, but scream harassment if someone they view as not that attractive does the same thing they were okay with the attractive man doing.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Unaffiliated said: A lot of women are ok with men they find attractive acting a certain way, but scream harassment if someone they view as not that attractive does the same thing they were okay with the attractive man doing. Do you have objective data to back up this claim?
kllindley Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Just now, Unaffiliated said: So we are getting to an important point. A lot of women are ok with men they find attractive acting a certain way, but scream harassment if someone they view as not that attractive does the same thing they were okay with the attractive man doing. Yeah. I think we both recognize that is an important, but rarely explicitly acknowledged fact. Further, I'll argue that at least some women would be okay with it (or even admot to wanting) some degree of "light coercion" or "moderate pressure" or "reasonable force" from certain men. Again, this does not mean that it is morally justifiable for any man (even said certain men) to act inappropriately.
kllindley Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Do you have objective data to back up this claim? I'll admit I don't have anything off the top of my head from the peer reviewed literature. Makes me want to take a look. My observations are purely the result of anecdotal evidence from counseling with hundreds of women.
Recommended Posts