Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Michael Sudworth said: Seems pretty reasonable to me. The rule in our family has long-been no male babysitters. Of any age. While young men -- generally speaking -- are not very likely to be innapropriate, a young man babysitter is many many times more likely to do so than a young woman. Boys/men are innapropriate at much higher rates than are girls/young women. My sons will never babysit. And I will never babysit anyone other than my own children unless my wife is with me. If the #MeToo movement showed us anything, it is that men should avoid being alone with any female other than a daughter or wife. Men have far too much to lose from false accusations to take the chance. Also, if men are never alone with women, they are less likely to treat women inappropriately. You should see all the female teachers nowadays being arrested for sex with Male students. 2
bluebell Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 13 hours ago, smac97 said: And the response to my inquiry was: "That's probably a good conclusion to draw." "No one is saying that it's fair." "Hopefully our society can change so that ... good men can stop being feared." Those words had a real effect on me. Sobering. I think I am a good person. But for now, I and my sons are "feared" by some to be potential rapists (and/or child molesters). Not because we have said or done anything untoward, but simply because we exist. That entire thread was one of the most troubling things I have ever read on this board. For various reasons. But anyway, lesson learned. Some women think of me - and all men (including my sons) - as as potential rapists. That realization is "a good conclusion to draw." I had previously been a bit more easygoing in my interactions with children and women, as well as guidelines for my sons. But if it is "a good conclusion to draw" that some women are terrified or me and my sons are, simply by virtue of our being male, "potential/inchoate rapists," well, I took that to heart. And the risks arising therefrom. So what had previously been generalized common-sense guidelines for myself and my sons became the hardened and specific and strongly enforced rules I listed previously. I think some clarification needs to be made on the statements above. It's not about women being terrified of men because they are male. Women are afraid of men (or apprehensive around them) because 1 in 3 women will experience physical or sexual violence from a man during her lifetime. Women are physically vulnerable to men, but that wouldn't be a problem if men didn't take advantage of that. But I completely agree, that it really does suck that good men have to pay for the actions of horrible men. I really do wish there was some way to tell the difference between a good man and a bad one. Life would be instantly better for everyone. 2
USU78 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Calm said: You mean like women have had to suppress themselves for eons in case of offending men? Don't show you are smarter, more capable, more creative, more assertive, etc. etc. than men because if you do, they will push you out. And there you go. The divide can never be breached. No one can ever be one with anybody else. And children must necessarily suffer because adults are incapable of seeing good in the other.
Tacenda Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I think some clarification needs to be made on the statements above. It's not about women being terrified of men because they are male. Women are afraid of men (or apprehensive around them) because 1 in 3 women will experience physical or sexual violence from a man during her lifetime. Women are physically vulnerable to men, but that wouldn't be a problem if men didn't take advantage of that. But I completely agree, that it really does suck that good men have to pay for the actions of horrible men. I really do wish there was some way to tell the difference between a good man and a bad one. Life would be instantly better for everyone. To the bold I added, you're right, according to this study. https://universe.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Sexual-Assault-in-Utah_Statistics-and-Research_May2017.pdf
smac97 Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 11 hours ago, USU78 said: Doesn't this anger you? That public policy is such that we must suppress the best part of ourselves because of others' irrationality, malice, and histrionics? Not really "anger," no. I recognize that I miss out on a lot of interacting with a lot of outstanding people (women), but it can't be helped. I have some professional acquaintances with women at work, and these are every inch "professional." Very little in the way of chitchat. Going to lunch is out of the question, unless there is a group. Friendliness, yes. But no friendship. Not in the way I have male friends. Things are similar in my personal life, in which any friendships with women necessarily and appropriately involve my wife. I have no friendships with any women except and unless they are friends with my wife. I am very much of the Mike Pence / Billy Graham school of thought when it comes to these sorts of things: Quote The Billy Graham rule is a practice among male evangelical Protestant leaders, in which they avoid spending time alone with women to whom they are not married. It is named after Billy Graham, a proponent of the practice, although recently has also been called the Mike Pence rule. It is adopted as a display of integrity, a means of avoiding sexual temptation, and to avoid any appearance of doing something considered morally objectionable, but has been criticized as being sexist. ... The rule has been criticized for viewing women merely as potential objects of lust as well as restricting opportunities for women to network with male colleagues.Tracey Bianchi argues that it means "Women are marginalized and cut out of opportunities to network, share their ideas, and advance in the organization." Bianchi also argues that the rule conflicts with the practice of Jesus himself, who spent time alone with the Samaritan woman at the well. Ty Grigg suggests that the rule has not been "effective at curbing infidelity". He argues that the rule "has framed relating with the opposite sex with fear", and that this leads to a diminished mutual respect, which in turn creates "the kind of environment where inappropriate relating is more likely to occur". Others, though, suggest that unfaithful pastors must have failed to implement the rule. Michael Brown observes that criticism against the rule has misunderstood the purposes of the rule. He argues that the rule prevents third parties from suspecting that an illicit romantic relationship exists (avoiding the appearance of evil). It also protects against any future accusations should the other party become embittered and seek to attack the innocent boss. Finally, it does protect both parties from developing natural attractions and potentially falling into adultery. There may well be some merit to the criticism above (that this rule "restrict{s} opportunities for women to network with male colleagues," and "Women are marginalized and cut out of opportunities to network, share their ideas, and advance in the organization"). I'm not sure what to do about that. It's not really an issue in my job at present (I spend most of my time working remotely). In an era when men are viewed in some quarters, based solely on their gender, as being potential rapists and child molesters, the Graham/Pence approach is a matter of self-preservation. Thanks, -Smac 3
bluebell Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 11 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: If the #MeToo movement showed us anything, it is that men should avoid being alone with any female other than a daughter or wife. Men have far too much to lose from false accusations to take the chance. Also, if men are never alone with women, they are less likely to treat women inappropriately. If the #MeToo movement shows us anything it's that men need to stop sexually harassing and abusing women. I don't know that increasing the burden on women is a solution anyone should be happy with. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, bluebell said: If the #MeToo movement shows us anything it's that men need to stop sexually harassing and abusing women. I don't know that increasing the burden on women is a solution anyone should be happy with. In a perfect world, no man would sexually harass or abuse women. Until we can reach that ideal, we do what we have to do both to curb the harassment/abuse and to avoid the hazard of false accusation or cloud of suspicion. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Not really "anger," no. I recognize that I miss out on a lot of interacting with a lot of outstanding people (women), but it can't be helped. I have some professional acquaintances with women at work, and these are every inch "professional." Very little in the way of chitchat. Going to lunch is out of the question, unless there is a group. Friendliness, yes. But no friendship. Not in the way I have male friends. Things are similar in my personal life, in which any friendships with women necessarily and appropriately involve my wife. I have no friendships with any women except and unless they are friends with my wife. I am very much of the Mike Pence / Billy Graham school of thought when it comes to these sorts of things: There may well be some merit to the criticism above (that this rule "restrict{s} opportunities for women to network with male colleagues," and "Women are marginalized and cut out of opportunities to network, share their ideas, and advance in the organization"). I'm not sure what to do about that. It's not really an issue in my job at present (I spend most of my time working remotely). In an era when men are viewed in some quarters, based solely on their gender, as being potential rapists and child molesters, the Graham/Pence approach is a matter of self-preservation. Thanks, -Smac It has long been my perception that the so-called “Billy Graham/Mike Pence school of thought” in this matter is part of the milieu in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well. Maybe it took the form of informal counsel, but it was undoubtedly present. Thus, I was surprised to see the push-back from some of our own people against Pence’s policy when it made the headlines a while ago. Edited July 22, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
USU78 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: It has long been my perception that the so-called “Billy Graham/Mike Pence school of thought” in this matter is part of the milieu in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well. Maybe it took the form of informal counsel, but it was undoubtedly present. Thus, I was surprised to see the push-back from some of our own people against Pence’s policy when it made the headlines a while ago. Kneejerk ad hominem.
bluebell Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: In a perfect world, no man would sexually harass or abuse women. Until we can reach that ideal, we do what we have to do both to curb the harassment/abuse and to avoid the hazard of false accusation or cloud of suspicion. I agree. Women don’t have the option to shun all risk to themselves or their daughters. We do what we can to mitigate it, while understanding we still have responsibilities and work that we must take part in, even if it sometimes puts us at different levels of risk. It would not be reasonable or fair to leave it all to the men. Hopefully men will understand they also can’t shun all risk, for they also have responsibilities and work to do that cannot just be left to the women. 2
Michael Sudworth Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 3 hours ago, bluebell said: If the #MeToo movement shows us anything it's that men need to stop sexually harassing and abusing women. I don't know that increasing the burden on women is a solution anyone should be happy with. CFR where I said anything about “increasing the burden on women.” Thanks. But related question: My sons were responsible for mowing our lawn and taking care of the trash. By making this their responsibility did I somehow “increase the burden” on my wife and dauthers?
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 A problem a lot of men have is there is no legal consequences to women who make false sexual assault and rape claims. They can easily destroy a man's l life with a false claim and face no repercussions.
Michael Sudworth Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Unaffiliated said: A problem a lot of men have is there is no legal consequences to women who make false sexual assault and rape claims. They can easily destroy a man's l life with a false claim and face no repercussions. I don't believe this is true. I heard of a case in the midwest just a month or so ago where a young woman was charged for making false accusations of rape.
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: I don't believe this is true. I heard of a case in the midwest just a month or so ago where a young woman was charged for making false accusations of rape. CFR
USU78 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: CFR https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
Unaffiliated Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 23 minutes ago, USU78 said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape That link doesn't show any jail time for women in the U.S. who falsely accuse and ruin an innocent man's reputation and life.
USU78 Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: That link doesn't show any jail time for women in the U.S. who falsely accuse and ruin an innocent man's reputation and life. 27 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: That link doesn't show any jail time for women in the U.S. who falsely accuse and ruin an innocent man's reputation and life. UK: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-11266276 Pretty easily found. You might try your own Google search.
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, USU78 said: UK: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-11266276 Pretty easily found. You might try your own Google search. The UK is not the US judicial system.
USU78 Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Just now, Unaffiliated said: The UK is not the US judicial system. You might try your own Google search.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 4 hours ago, USU78 said: Kneejerk ad hominem. Against Pence? I agree. 3
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, USU78 said: You might try your own Google search. Do I gotta do all the work around here when I CFR someone? Just kidding. I'll take a look.
Michael Sudworth Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Unaffiliated said: CFR Well here's one from the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale
Michael Sudworth Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: The UK is not the US judicial system. Your claim was not specific to the US justice system.
Unaffiliated Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: Your claim was not specific to the US justice system. You said you heard of an example of midwest which is US so I asked for a CFR and instead you posted a whole different country with a different judicial system.
Michael Sudworth Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Unaffiliated said: You said you heard of an example of midwest which is US so I asked for a CFR and instead you posted a whole different country with a different judicial system. Find peace. Nice trolling attempt but you came on a little strong. 1
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