Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit (Hearing Schedule)

[kllindley]

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

Thanks Calm.  They always send officers to question and investigate (at least in my state).  I have a brother who is a police officer and I will call him tomorrow just to confirm but that’s what he’s told me.  They may not open an official case or send it on to the DA, but they never ignore a report of abuse (especially of a minor). All involved are always questioned.

I am actually surprised anyone wouldn’t be in favor of this taking place to protect children and minors.

Working with traumatized children coming from these homes, I was surprised that the cops busting in didn't make things better. It often was more traumatizing than that they had reported, especially when it was a bitter ex-spouse or grandparent. 

Being able to have such trust in the police must be comforting. 

{Fell asleep posting}

Edited July 20, 2018 by kllindley

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Working with traumatized children coming from these homes, I was surprised that the cops busting in didn't make things better. It often was more traumatizing than that they had reported, especially when it was a bitter ex-spouse or grandparent. 

Being able to have such trust in the police for today must nomgkyk+

Kllindley, maybe we’re confusing what we’re each referring to?  I’m saying that they will never ignore a call about abuse of a minor and will always come out and question and investigate.  You may be saying they don’t always open an official investigation (that goes to the DA and leads to an actual trial).  I agree with you on that if it’s what you’re referring to.

(And cops don’t usually “bust in”, at least from what my brother has told me about these cases.  They try to be discrete and sensitive especially when a minor is involved.)

Edited July 20, 2018 by JulieM

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Correct.  I work with abuse cases and I know that officers are always sent out to investigate (and take a report) when they receive a call and  a minor is the alleged victim.  It would be completely negligent to do otherwise.  I'm shocked anyone is questioning this is standard procedure after suspected abuse has been reported.  Who on earth would think it would be ok for it not to be investigated?  Is there anyone here who really wants to step forward and state this shouldn't take place?

I know!  My brother has had some rough experiences, but he knows he has to investigate and ask questions.  He’s always very careful to protect the feelings of any minors involved and shield them as much as possible during this time.  It’s really a crumby part of his job (one of many actually).

[Calm]

I would not be surprised if interpretation of what investigation means is different and is leading to confusion.

I would hope every case is treated very seriously.  What that means I leave to the professionals.  As I have said probably too many times, I see much of human behaviour as counterintuitive and if victims are more willing to go to librarians than police, the typical types of investigations we see on TV or even reported in the news might not be the typically best approach.

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Danzo said:

Good thing you aren't a bishop. 

you could be putting all kinds of people at risk because you don't want to know. 

 

I don't want to know what illegal stuff people int he ward do?  I suppose so.  I'd rather the legal authorities deal with it.  

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, rongo said:

They are always able to do that. And always have been.

Yes.  My point.  

15 hours ago, rongo said:

 

 

I'll go you one better than that. If someone confessed something to me like molestation, etc., I would ask them if they are really sorry and really want to repent and begin to make things right. If the answer to that is yes, then I would ask them if they are willing to go with me to the police station and turn themselves in. If the answer is no, then I would tell them that I will turn them in if they won't --- but that it should be them. Especially if they want to actually repent of this. 

That puts me at odds with what the Church counsels leaders to do, and it breaches confidentiality. But it is what I would do if presented with a direct confession of something like that. I wouldn't just rely on others to "go tell the police." 

I'm thinking i'd do something like that too.  

[ALarson]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I would not be surprised if interpretation of what investigation means is different and is leading to confusion.

I would hope every case is treated very seriously.  What that means I leave to the professionals.  As I have said probably too many times, I see much of human behaviour as counterintuitive and if victims are more willing to go to librarians than police, the typical types of investigations we see on TV or even reported in the news might not be the typically best approach.

And when a child or youth goes to their school librarian and confides in them that their Father is raping or sexually abusing them or their teacher is raping them or their coach is raping them or their church leader is raping them, what do you recommend the librarian do with that information?

[kllindley]

48 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And when a child or youth goes to their school librarian and confides in them that their Father is raping or sexually abusing them or their teacher is raping them or their coach is raping them or their church leader is raping them, what do you recommend the librarian do with that information?

If she (totally sexist assumption) lives in a state that Julie described, I'd recommend that she flee the state.

 

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, kllindley said:

If she (totally sexist assumption) lives in a state that Julie described, I'd recommend that she flee the state.

The librarian?

[kllindley]

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

Kllindley, maybe we’re confusing what we’re each referring to?  I’m saying that they will never ignore a call about abuse of a minor and will always come out and question and investigate.  You may be saying they don’t always open an official investigation (that goes to the DA and leads to an actual trial).  I agree with you on that if it’s what you’re referring to.

I'm really surprised that your state uses police to do that legwork, rather than trained pediatric forensic interviewers. I'm not a cop hater, but I am glad my State keeps those roles separate. 

 

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

(And cops don’t usually “bust in”, at least from what my brother has told me about these cases.  They try to be discrete and sensitive especially when a minor is involved.)

I was actually referring to just getting involved. You said in an earlier post that during the investigation (no exceptions) that the accused were not allowed contact with the alleged victims. You even clarified that meant removal from the home it the accused was a parent-even if there was no evidence. The accusation or claim was enough. Until the investigation is over. How long to these types of investigations usually take? Who pays for trauma therapy and family counseling if it turns out to be a false accusation?

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I'm really surprised that your state uses police to do that legwork, rather than trained pediatric forensic interviewers. I'm not a cop hater, but I am glad my State keeps those roles separate. 

The police always are the initial ones to go out and take a report.  They then will call in the specially trained pediatric interviewers (for minors) if it proceeds.  The pediatric interviewers aren't sent out to the home (or school, etc.) first.

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

The librarian?

Yes. Preferably before interacting with any minors. 

Further, I would encourage all parents to move immediately. I'm appalled that children are removed from homes on the basis on an accusation alone, that police officers are the ones doing these interviews, and that families are at the mercy of when the agency closes the investigation. That generally takes months.

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

The police always are the initial ones to go out and take a report.  They then will call in the specially trained pediatric interviewers (for minors) if it proceeds.  The pediatric interviewers aren't sent out to the home (or school, etc.) first.

Bizarre. We use trained social workers first. 

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I was actually referring to just getting involved. You said in an earlier post that during the investigation (no exceptions) that the accused were not allowed contact with the alleged victims. You even clarified that meant removal from the home it the accused was a parent-even if there was no evidence. The accusation or claim was enough. Until the investigation is over. How long to these types of investigations usually take? Who pays for trauma therapy and family counseling if it turns out to be a false accusation?

She stated that this "can" happen (the removal of the abuser from the home).  That's definitely true.  When a man (or woman) is under investigation for sexually abusing a minor, he is not allowed to be near minors until the case is settled (case closed or a trial).  That may include removal from the environment where the abuse is taking place or just supervision (not being allowed to be alone with them). Everything is done to protect the child (and other potential victims). 

Do you think a teacher is allowed to continue teaching if an abuse report has been filed?   Do you think a coach is allowed to continuing coaching minors if he's been accused of sexually abusing one of them?  I'm not sure why you'd oppose getting the child away from the person accused of abusing them (while it's being looked into and a determination is made regarding the abuse).

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Bizarre. We use trained social workers first. 

In my experience, when a call is made to the police, they go right out and assess the situation.  I've never seen the pediatric forensic interviewer make the initial visit.

Edited July 20, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yes. Preferably before interacting with any minors. 

Further, I would encourage all parents to move immediately. I'm appalled that children are removed from homes on the basis on an accusation alone, that police officers are the ones doing these interviews, and that families are at the mercy of when the agency closes the investigation. That generally takes months.

I don't see anyone making the claims you're listing.  All of this discussion has been about what "may" or "could" happen during an investigation (if one is opened).  No one has stated that the child is "always" removed from the home (that I've seen) "on the basis on an accusation alone"..  

[ALarson]

13 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I think you missed the part where she said,  “If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse ...” Are you saying that it’s draconian for the police to investigate abuse when it is reported to them? What a strange thing to object to!

It appears kllindley is talking about something different than Julie (and I) are.  I'm only responding to what happens when the police receive the cal regarding abuse of a minor.  Julie is correct about what takes place (and what "can" or what "may" follow from there).  

There are just too many variables with each specific case, to state that something "always" happens.  But a report made to the police of abuse involving a child or minor is taken very seriously.   The police would never ignore a call and not look into it.  

Edited July 20, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

She stated that this "can" happen (the removal of the abuser from the home).  That's definitely true.  When a man (or woman) is under investigation for sexually abusing a minor, he is not allowed to be near minors until the case is settled (case closed or a trial).  That may include removal from the environment where the abuse is taking place or just supervision (not being allowed to be alone with them). Everything is done to protect the child (and other potential victims). 

Do you think a teacher is allowed to continue teaching if an abuse report has been filed?   Do you think a coach is allowed to continuing coaching minors if he's been accused of sexually abusing one of them?  I'm not sure why you'd oppose getting the child away from the person accused of abusing them (while it's being looked into and a determination is made regarding the abuse).

 

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

In my experience, when a call is made to the police, they go right out and access the situation.  I've never seen the pediatric forensic interviewer make the initial visit.

Maybe this is the real reason why Utah has such a higher rate of child sexual assault. Or maybe the people of Utah are so upright that false allegations truly are nonexistent.

Either way, that makes me really grateful to live and practice in a state that actually believes in due process of law, protection of constitutional rights, and prioritizing the actual well-being of children over the comfort of adults getting to assure themselves they take abuse seriously.

[ALarson]

Here's what is stated regarding reporting child abuse (which would include a school librarian):

Quote

All states require teachers and school personnel to report suspected child abuse. There are even some states that require any person to report. Usually a reasonable suspicion, or a reasonable cause to believe is enough to require a teacher to report according to the law. As a rule, when in doubt, report. Reporting is anonymous and an investigation will take place. Failure to report can result in a criminal or civil liability.

There are hotlines set up to report any suspected abuse (that's probably what kllindley is referring to).

Some do still  contact the police (that's what I was referring to with my information and it appears what Julie was also responding to from reading her posts).

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Either way, that makes me really grateful to live and practice in a state that actually believes in due process of law, protection of constitutional rights, and prioritizing the actual well-being of children over the comfort of adults getting to assure themselves they take abuse seriously.

You're misrepresenting what is being stated here.  I don't know of a state that does not believe in "due process of law, protection of constitutional rights".  Who has described a state where this doesn't take place?  A question was asked what takes place when the police are called.  What has been described is "due process".   The importance of "prioritizing the actual well-being of children over the comfort of adults" has also been stressed.  That's why the accused abuser may not be allowed to be near minors during the investigation and during a trial (if it goes that far).

[smac97]

18 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think i'll continue to advise me and mine to go to the police when they know of illegal activity that needs be reported. 

Nothing wrong with that.  This is what bishops do on a regular basis.

The thing, though, is that bishops shouldn't compel such things.  

Quote

They can surely talk to the Bishop, I suppose, but there's no need to let him handle it through the attorneys who are trying to protect the Church. 

I think you have a myopic perspective on why the Church has its bishops work with the helpline.

In virtually no other circumstance would it be reasonable to say, in essence, "Hmm.  This representative of an organization has received information about a difficult and potentially complex legal issue.  HE BETTER NOT SEEK ANY LEGAL ADVICE!  LAWYERS ARE EVIL!"  😁

</irony>

Bishops are functioning as an agent/representative of the Church.  There are many laws throughout the country that create specific legal obligations and conditions for bishops (and other religious ministers).  These laws change all the time.  It does not make sense to suggest that bishops who receive sensitive information about abuse issues while acting in their capacity as religious ministers and representatives of the LDS Church should not get correct legal advice on how to proceed.

The helpline's primary purpose is to help bishops as they help abuse victims.  I think you err in characterizing the helpline as principally "trying to protect the Church."

Quote

If I were the bishop and some member was intent on telling me about something illegal rather than the police, I'd say, "go tell the police" and leave the Church's attorneys out of it.  

Then you would potentially be putting yourself and the Church at substantial risk (and perhaps some victims as well).  If a bishop hears about allegations of abuse, it is his legal responsibility to report it to the police.  Simply telling the person to "go tell the police" is not sufficient.  What happens if they don't go to the police?  Then we're left with a McKenna Denson / Kristy Johnson type of situation.  Surely you don't want that.

This sort of knee-jerk, the-church-said-do-x-so-I'm-not-gonna-do-it rejection of the Church's efforts to help bishops as they help abuse victims is, I think, quite misguided.

Those who have been called as bishops by and large are very grateful for the helpline.  And they aren't typically in the business of defying the Church's plainly sensible guidelines that are designed to help bishops properly address allegations of abuse (and do a good job at it).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 20, 2018 by smac97

[kllindley]

Per Julie:

"They will always open an investigation (especially if a minor is involved).  No direct evidence is needed (only an accusation or claim).  Also theperson under suspicion will not be allowed to be alone with them or near them (and can have to leave their home if they’re a father or mother).  At least that’s what happens in my state while it’s being investigated."

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You're misrepresenting what is being stated here.  I don't know of a state that does not believe in "due process of law, protection of constitutional rights".  Who has described a state where this doesn't take place?  A question was asked what takes place when the police are called.  What has been described is "due process".   The importance of "prioritizing the actual well-being of children over the comfort of adults" has also been stressed.  That's why the accused abuser may not be allowed to be near minors during the investigation and during a trial (if it goes that far).

I asked for clarification and was told there were no exceptions. (Not that it depends  on the situation.) 

You've chosen not to answer my questions. That's your right. But let me reiterate them:

 How long to these types of investigations usually take?

Who pays for trauma therapy and family counseling if it turns out to be a false accusation?

How many families have you had to work with after a divorcing spouse or grandparent falsely accuses the other parent of sexual abuse? 

Do you have any idea how much more destructive it is if the accused parent is automatically treated as guilty?

 

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Per Julie:

"They will always open an investigation (especially if a minor is involved).  No direct evidence is needed (only an accusation or claim).  Also theperson under suspicion will not be allowed to be alone with them or near them (and can have to leave their home if they’re a father or mother).  At least that’s what happens in my state while it’s being investigated."

 

Come on kllindley, she clarified what she was referring to (and realized the two of you were speaking of different levels of investigation).  And she is correct that if an actual investigation is opened and a case is pending trial, the accused is not allowed to be alone with the alleged victim(s).  There also does not need to be any "direct evidence" for the police to respond to a call and investigate or question those involved when a report is made regarding the abuse of a minor.  She's correct.  

Do a search for:

.during sex abuse investigation suspect "not allowed to be around minors" (copy that into google)

You'll see it's pretty standard procedure for this to take place.  I can give you some specific statues of law in different states where this is mandated too.

You should probably just drop this (or open a new thread as to not derail this one further)

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, ALarson said:

In my experience, when a call is made to the police, they go right out and assess the situation.  I've never seen the pediatric forensic interviewer make the initial visit.

One site I read says in that state CPS get sent out unless after hours, then police.  Another didn't have all Police forces in the State having trained abuse investigators in smaller forces.  So it sounds like there may be variations by state.

 

32 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Here's what is stated regarding reporting child abuse (which would include a school librarian):

There are hotlines set up to report any suspected abuse (that's probably what kllindley is referring to).

Some do still  contact the police (that's what I was referring to with my information and it appears what Julie was also responding to from reading her posts).

From your quote:

Quote

Usually a reasonable suspicion, or a reasonable cause to believe is enough to require a teacher to report according to the law. As a rule, when in doubt, report.

That sounds like not all  reports of sexual abuse are seen as mandatory even in a mandatory state.

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

One site I read says in that state CPS get sent out unless after hours, then police.  

That's different than what kllindley stated (and what I was responding to), he stated the forensic interviewers go out first:

"I'm really surprised that your state uses police to do that legwork, rather than trained pediatric forensic interviewers" 

In my experience (and my area), the police respond to a call by sending officers out first.  Then they involve child protection services if they feel a case needs to be filed and an official investigation done.  They are also the ones who set up any interviews with a "trained pediatric forensic interviewer" for a minor. The detective remains actively involved in the investigation too and is almost always a witness at a trial if it goes that far.

Either way, no one is claiming that "due process" is not followed in any of the states.  Whether the police make the initial call or CPS, it's "due process".  Both are involved if it's determined a child is at risk and an active investigation takes place.  It's then turned over to the D.A. and possibly a trial from there.

I'm off of here now for awhile (don't want to appear rude if I can't respond right away).

Edited July 20, 2018 by ALarson