Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit

[Classicslover]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Sorry this doesn't address any of the points that you're making, but I am wondering why every sentence you write is in its own paragraph? 

Excellent question!

It is due to my own weaknesses. I am NOT a great typist, and especially when I am tired (I do most of my typing late at night) things tend to run together.

To check myself, I do this...separation.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

 

Means that you are doubting the Native American before you about experiencing racist abuse in the Church.

The reality of the internet is at this point we can't even know if you are truly a Native American or one who is posing to be. People claiming to be believers who are not have shown up here from time to time, for example.  Why not NA? Without offline interaction or FaceTime, how can we tell for sure?  Not saying you aren't, I have currently no reason not to believe you, but you have not provided anything but your word and as you are a new poster, that means we are accepting your word on faith.  Same goes for who I am, you are only assuming I am a woman, LDS, etc. and I may instead be a jerk who likes to con people.

As far as your claims...again we don't know you (unless you have been lurking and reading, the same goes for us with you).  Perhaps you like to dramatize, perhaps you are precise in your descriptions, perhaps you like to be the hero of your stories, perhaps you place yourself more naturally an observer.  At this point we can only guess what habits of interpretation and presentation you have.

Your story could be accurate in what your leaders did to you, but what if they did it not because they were racist, but because they didn't like you personally for some reason, you as an individual?  (Not a justification, just giving a possible alternative) That is one of the problems with hearing only one side of a story.  You certainly have the right to tell it, but it is your own perceptions you are sharing and anyone with the least bit of personal awareness knows they aren't always right in their own perceptions, so why would we assume a total stranger is?

I don't btw discount stories of leaders who were jerks or deny there is racism in the Church, I have seen it personally (I was shocked when I moved up there by the racism against the First Nations by some Canadian members even among some of those who appeared to be less racist against blacks and hispanics, the racism I ran into when living in California and Illinois and other states).   I have also seen loving, compassionate leaders who were portrayed as selfish, malicious beings, so I tend to wait to see if stories of new posters stay consistent, are realistic in how they describe procedures or other things that tend to be consistent in most places, how posters interpret others' post (if always negative, why would .I not assume they look at offline interactions as primarily negative as well even they are not?).  Generally .I give the benefit of the doubt, but more extreme claims of any type tend to create reservations and a waiting period to see what someone is like.  I think it likely some other posters respond in similar ways.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

The reality of the internet is at this point we can't even know if you are truly a Native American or one who is posing to be. People claiming to be believers who are not have shown up here from time to time, for example.  Why not NA? Without offline interaction or FaceTime, how can we tell for sure?  Not saying you aren't, I have currently no reason not to believe you, but you have not provided anything but your word and as you are a new poster, that means we are accepting your word on faith.  Same goes for who I am, you are only assuming I am a woman, LDS, etc. and I may instead be a jerk who likes to con people.

As far as your claims...again we don't know you (unless you have been lurking and reading, the same goes for us with you).  Perhaps you like to dramatize, perhaps you are precise in your descriptions, perhaps you like to be the hero of your stories, perhaps you place yourself more naturally an observer.  At this point we can only guess what habits of interpretation and presentation you have.

Your story could be accurate in what your leaders did to you, but what if they did it not because they were racist, but because they didn't like you personally for some reason, you as an individual?  (Not a justification, just giving a possible alternative) That is one of the problems with hearing only one side of a story.  You certainly have the right to tell it, but it is your own perceptions you are sharing and anyone with the least bit of personal awareness knows they aren't always right in their own perceptions, so why would we assume a total stranger is?

I don't btw discount stories of leaders who were jerks or deny there is racism in the Church, I have seen it personally (I was shocked when I moved up there by the racism against the First Nations by some Canadian members even among some of those who appeared to be less racist against blacks and hispanics, the racism I ran into when living in California and Illinois and other states).

Hello Calm,

I thought your gender was "Not Telling"?

Well, I come from a mixed race family, which was SO impressive of Dad...considering the potential for backlash...but then again...Mom looks like Ava Gardner. Mom didn't want us kids to be targeted for racism. She already experienced residential school...and was beaten for speaking her language. So she never taught us.

The only phrase I vaguely remember is "Help! I'm being chased by a wolf!" Which is very difficult to work into polite conversation.    

I have been questioned by police for: Standing while Indian; walking while Indian; jogging while Indian (muscle shirt, headphones, shorts and runners...while running...and "What are you doing?" Reply: "Kayaking down the Potomac.") pulling weeds while Indian...

For real. I was pulling dandelions in my yard, police cruiser pulls up as asks me what I am doing...as I stand with weeds in one hand while reaching for another. I figure this guy is NO Sherlock Holmes.

One time I had just crossed a bridge walking back from the chapel and a police cruiser slams onto the sidewalk in front of me. He tells me that a man fitting my description just robbed a store in the downtown mall.

I reply: "You mean "tall, dark and native? THAT description? And do you mean that mall I'm walking toward and NOT running away from? My, how clever of me."

He asks to search my backpack. He finds my scripture case. "What's this?" He asks.

"My scriptures. Including the Book of Mormon. How much do you know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and would you like to know more?" 

He then left.

People tried to beat me up since Kindergarten  for being Indian.  I always waited for a teacher to come help me. Then there was the day in second grade that two teachers came around the corner when five other kids were beating on me. They watched for awhile, and then turned and walked away.

That was a VERY strong "YOU have no worth!" statement that I chose to reject.

So I beat up the five boys myself. They left me alone after that.

Others often thought they would try their hand in increasingly large numbers.

I always have to carry a receipt my whole life, even after I leave the store and even if it's just a chocolate bar.

Or my word is doubted.

Kinda like here.

[Calm]

There are some things about human nature that are quite disgusting, tendencies to see the other as less human or unworthy or as an object are some of them.  

The Gospel is what gives me hope this is not our eternal state since it teaches us we can become one with God, one with each other.  We should be feeling each blow on another as if we were being hit ourselves, but never do of course.  Not yet, not with our mortal understanding.  We should work hard though as if those attacks were on ourselves in terms of doing what we can to stop hate, ignorance, arrogance.  How to do that is unfortunately not always clear.

[Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

<snip />

I always have to carry a receipt my whole life, even after I leave the store and even if it's just a chocolate bar.

Or my word is doubted.

Kinda like here.

This is quite a litany.  Why do you get such special treatment?  Because everyone's racist?

If your word seems to be doubted here, it isn't because you're Indian.  Perhaps your experiences seem unusual, all dumped out like that, and a bit over the top.  Doesn't matter if it's all true, because if it is outside everyone's experience, there's bound to be some natural skepticism.  

I've been discriminated against and harrassed because I'm LDS, but I don't dump all my woes in that regard onto total strangers the first chance I get.  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Classicslover said:

As to one side of the conversation...does that mean that Alma should not have recounted his experience with Korihor...and Mormon should not have included that episode in the plates and Joseph Smith had no business translating Alma Chapter 30...all because Korihor is not around to tell his side?

As to your position that "Disagreeing with someone doesn't make them wrong and you right, for example, it just means that you believe they are wrong and you are right."

Well, for example..people who say the earth is flat does not make it any less round.

Truth is truth.

And mostly pretty clear.

The stake president lied. He was wrong to do so. And that's not a matter of opinion. 

You aren't Alma or JS, so that's kind of an odd analogy to use.  I have the spirit confirming that the scriptures and the plates are truth.  I don't have anything confirming what you've said, it's just your word.  I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know so I'm going to treat it as an unknown.

And I agree that truth is truth, but like you said with your example of flat earth'ers, lots of people believe something is true that actually isn't.  I believe that you believe the Stake president lied, but that's not convincing to me.  I'm neutral on the matter, and the other matters that you brought up.  

[Classicslover]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are some things about human nature that are quite disgusting, tendencies to see the other as less human or unworthy or as an object are some of them.  

The Gospel is what gives me hope this is not our eternal state since it teaches us we can become one with God, one with each other.  We should be feeling each blow on another as if we were being hit ourselves, but never do of course.  Not yet, not with our mortal understanding.  We should work hard though as if those attacks were on ourselves in terms of doing what we can to stop hate, ignorance, arrogance.  How to do that is unfortunately not always clear.

Standing up for truth is always a good way to go...speaking up.

Including not letting bishops/stake presidents/etc get away with garbage. It is always best though, to have someone on your side, standing with you!

I mean, that's why we're on this thread...right? 

A woman claims to have been sexually abused. Raped by a Church leader in a position of authority and her own leader didn't help her and was dismissive. And leaders up the ladder ignored her.

People doubted that. So I gave examples of that actually happening.

People often argue:"NO! It can't really be like that because leaders are supposed to be called of God and leaders are supposed to have the Spirit.

If THAT were  ALWAYS true then these things would never happen.

Sexual assault. Spousal abuse. Racism. Covered up, and ignored by higher authorities.

THAT is not God's will.

And hiding it all does not make the problem go away.

Calm...Thank-you for your empathy, by the way. Exactly what we need more of. 

[Classicslover]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I've been discriminated against and harrassed because I'm LDS, but I don't dump all my woes in that regard onto total strangers the first chance I get.  

Have to remind you this is about being discriminated and harassed BY LDS. Especially leaders. Sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racist abuse BY leaders and covered up by leaders. You just need empathy. 

[Avatar4321]

11 hours ago, USU78 said:

I don't know how you go about solving the delayed reporting problem. Inevitably it is fatal to successful prosecution in cases that are difficult at the best of times absent confessions.

How is that the Church's fault? What could the Church do, consistent with its mission goals, to sort through the mess that is this case?

If the professionals couldn't sort it out as presented, how are untrained volunteers supposed to?

 

I don't know how we sort through that, but shouldn't we teach forgiveness and healing through Jesus Christ?

[Classicslover]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You aren't Alma or JS, so that's kind of an odd analogy to use.  I have the spirit confirming that the scriptures and the plates are truth.  I don't have anything confirming what you've said, it's just your word.  I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know so I'm going to treat it as an unknown.

And I agree that truth is truth, but like you said with your example of flat earth'ers, lots of people believe something is true that actually isn't.  I believe that you believe the Stake president lied, but that's not convincing to me.  I'm neutral on the matter, and the other matters that you brought up.

Does one have to be  Alma or Joseph Smith to stand up for truth against false doctrine?

(Psst! It's actually something the Lord requires of all of us!) 

You say that you have the spirit confirming that the scriptures and the plates are truth...

Do you REALLY believe that is all the Spirit can testify about?

By the power of the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of ALL things.

What;'s more, you somehow believe that being neutral is somehow "noble".

You're wrong.

Revelation 3:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Classicslover said:

With respect, you are not following the scriptures:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 42:

90 And if thy brother or sister offend many, he or she shall be chastened before many.

91 And if any one offend openly, he or she shall be rebuked openly, that he or she may be ashamed. And if he or she confess not, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of God.

But that's exactly what he is doing...

[USU78]

17 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I don't know how we sort through that, but shouldn't we teach forgiveness and healing through Jesus Christ?

Aren't we already?

The instant case: wouldn't learning to forgive help this poor troubled woman?

[Avatar4321]

9 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

Does one have to be  Alma or Joseph Smith to stand up for truth against false doctrine?

(Psst! It's actually something the Lord requires of all of us!) 

You say that you have the spirit confirming that the scriptures and the plates are truth...

Do you REALLY believe that is all the Spirit can testify about?

By the power of the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of ALL things.

What;'s more, you somehow believe that being neutral is somehow "noble".

You're wrong.

Revelation 3:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” - Joseph Smith Jr

[Avatar4321]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Aren't we already?

The instant case: wouldn't learning to forgive help this poor troubled woman?

I would hope we are but I'm not sure people are learning to

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said:

I would hope we are but I'm not sure people are learning to

There's never an end to learning to be a Mensch

[Classicslover]

34 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I don't know how we sort through that, but shouldn't we teach forgiveness and healing through Jesus Christ?

That's part of it, but not all of it.

Doctrine And Covenants Section 123

1 And again, we would suggest for your consideration the propriety of all the saints gathering up a knowledge of all the facts, and sufferings and abuses put upon them by the people of this State;

2 And also of all the property and amount of damages which they have sustained, both of character and personal injuries, as well as real property;

3 And also the names of all persons that have had a hand in their oppressions, as far as they can get hold of them and find them out.

4 And perhaps a committee can be appointed to find out these things, and to take statements and affidavits; and also to gather up the libelous publications that are afloat;

5 And all that are in the magazines, and in the encyclopedias, and all the libelous histories that are published, and are writing, and by whom, and present the whole concatenation of diabolical rascality and nefarious and murderous impositions that have been practiced upon this people—

6 That we may not only publish to all the world, but present them to the heads of government in all their dark and hellish hue, as the last effort which is enjoined on us by our Heavenly Father, before we can fully and completely claim that promise which shall call him forth from his hiding place; and also that the whole nation may be left without excuse before he can send forth the power of his mighty arm.

7 It is an imperative duty that we owe to God, to angels, with whom we shall be brought to stand...

 13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

Then we also have this...

Doctrine and Covenants Section 134:

11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.

[Classicslover]

13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” - Joseph Smith Jr

Nice try...but sexual assault by leaders IS wrong. COVERING UP sexual assault by leaders is wrong. RACISM is wrong. IGNORING racism in the Church is wrong.

If you contest that, then it is you on the road to apostasy. Because that is what the Prophet has said. 

[Classicslover]

27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

But that's exactly what he is doing...

Nope. That is what he WAS stopping ME from doing, then he repented. Keep up. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Hello Calm,

I thought your gender was "Not Telling"?

Well, I come from a mixed race family, which was SO impressive of Dad...considering the potential for backlash...but then again...Mom looks like Ava Gardner. Mom didn't want us kids to be targeted for racism. She already experienced residential school...and was beaten for speaking her language. So she never taught us.

The only phrase I vaguely remember is "Help! I'm being chased by a wolf!" Which is very difficult to work into polite conversation.    

I have been questioned by police for: Standing while Indian; walking while Indian; jogging while Indian (muscle shirt, headphones, shorts and runners...while running...and "What are you doing?" Reply: "Kayaking down the Potomac.") pulling weeds while Indian...

For real. I was pulling dandelions in my yard, police cruiser pulls up as asks me what I am doing...as I stand with weeds in one hand while reaching for another. I figure this guy is NO Sherlock Holmes.

One time I had just crossed a bridge walking back from the chapel and a police cruiser slams onto the sidewalk in front of me. He tells me that a man fitting my description just robbed a store in the downtown mall.

I reply: "You mean "tall, dark and native? THAT description? And do you mean that mall I'm walking toward and NOT running away from? My, how clever of me."

He asks to search my backpack. He finds my scripture case. "What's this?" He asks.

"My scriptures. Including the Book of Mormon. How much do you know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and would you like to know more?" 

He then left.

People tried to beat me up since Kindergarten  for being Indian.  I always waited for a teacher to come help me. Then there was the day in second grade that two teachers came around the corner when five other kids were beating on me. They watched for awhile, and then turned and walked away.

That was a VERY strong "YOU have no worth!" statement that I chose to reject.

So I beat up the five boys myself. They left me alone after that.

Others often thought they would try their hand in increasingly large numbers.

I always have to carry a receipt my whole life, even after I leave the store and even if it's just a chocolate bar.

Or my word is doubted.

Kinda like here.

We white people will never, ever comprehend what people of color go through. I'm embarrassed for my race, sick to my stomach. Now I sound like a racist against my race which is pretty lame since when have whites ever been the target? Btw, I was always so proud that my great grandmother was part Cherokee from Kentucky. So I don't know how much of a native American I am maybe just a drop who knows, but was so proud of that fact. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Tacenda

[Classicslover]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

We white people will never, ever comprehend what people of color go through. I'm almost embarrassed for my race, sick to my stomach. But how much a better people you are and btw I was always so proud that my great grandmother was part Cherokee from Kentucky. So I don't know how much of a native American I am maybe just a drop who knows, but was so proud of that fact. 

You should be proud of your great grandfather too! Mixed marriage would have been difficult back then! He must have really loved her!

THAT is a grand legacy to have! SO much love!

I love your "Earth laughs in flowers!" quote!

JUST what I needed to read right now! SO true!

It definitely picked up my spirits! Thank-you!

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

You should be proud of your great grandfather too! Mixed marriage would have been difficult back then! He must have really loved her!

THAT is a grand legacy to have! SO much love!

I love your "Earth laughs in flowers!" quote!

JUST what I needed to read right now! SO true!

It definitely picked up my spirits! Thank-you!

I don't know how much NA blood was in my grandmother. Before she was gray, I know she had long black hair and high cheek bones. But she wasn't full NA. Thanks for liking my flowers quote, haha. And welcome to the board, I hope you stick around. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Tacenda

[Classicslover]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know how much NA blood was in my grandmother. Before she was gray, I know she had long black hair and high cheek bones. But she wasn't full NA. Thanks for your nice compliment, welcome to the board, I hope you stick around. 

Well you DO make the neighborhood a pleasant place! Thank-you so much for your gracious hospitality!

Edited June 16, 2018 by Classicslover
mis spelled a word

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Nope. That is what he WAS stopping ME from doing, then he repented. Keep up. 

he was rebuking you.

as have i.

 

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Nice try...but sexual assault by leaders IS wrong. COVERING UP sexual assault by leaders is wrong. RACISM is wrong. IGNORING racism in the Church is wrong.

If you contest that, then it is you on the road to apostasy. Because that is what the Prophet has said. 

No one is covering up sexual assault by leaders. No one is being racist. 

Speaking out publicly against your leaders saying you are right and they are wrong is exactly what Joseph warned us about.

You can't pick and choose what you want to follow the prophet on.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If your word seems to be doubted here, it isn't because you're Indian.  Perhaps your experiences seem unusual, all dumped out like that, and a bit over the top.  Doesn't matter if it's all true, because if it is outside everyone's experience, there's bound to be some natural skepticism.  

Depending on where he lives and if he has lived there always, I am not that skeptical.  There were a number of whites with over the top racism towards the First Nations in/from the small towns bordering the Blood Reserve in Canada.  One time we stopped to help a Blood family with five kids in a broken down pickup iirc at the side of the road, they had been stranded there for over an hour with no one stopping...and it was the road to the temple, so likely at least a dozen members to and from visiting the temple had passed them by among the other cars.  It was par for the course for them.  The dad was very sweet in thanking us for taking him into town to get help (no cell phone back then).

It seems easiest for people to 'grow out' of racist beliefs if they have little actual exposure, probably because the casual, everyday racist comments that establish attitudes are mostly missing.  I have wondered if moving into a community where racism is more accepted can switch the racism on because of greater opportunity to hear of negative experiences (real or imagined).  After all, seeing run down homes and unkept yards mile after mile proves NAs are lazy, right?  And chances are if you have a large group, there will be criminals among them that could used to support stereotypes (just as living in Utah makes it easier to find jerk Mormons to 'prove' any stereotype one cares to).

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm