Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Classicslover said:

 

A woman claims to have been sexually abused. Raped by a Church leader in a position of authority and her own leader didn't help her and was dismissive. And leaders up the ladder ignored her.

Except as far as we can tell, they didn't in several cases.  She had three opportunities by her own report, including one with Elder Monson, where she states she didn't tell them about the rape.  Since she doesn't specify what she did tell them, it is possible that it did not include clear abuse (personal counseling sessions where inappropriate personal stories were shared could be blamed on inexperience in counseling).  Her claim is Leavitt wasn't dismissive and set her up with Asay.  So either her leaders weren't dismissive of her claims at least in being willing to talk with her or she is lying and one out of three was dismissive while the other two weren't given a chance as far as we can tell by the info she has shared (in the case of the therapist, she is very definite she told him nothing, she shares no details about meeting with Elder Monson, but she was sent back out so seems likely she followed the same pattern as she reported for the therapist and Elder Asay).

[Calm]

9 hours ago, USU78 said:

Aren't we already?

The instant case: wouldn't learning to forgive help this poor troubled woman?

Forgiveness can certainly help...will bring, imo the only true deep to the bone healing.

However, forgiveness does not mean one shouldn't seek justice.  Holding those who sin accountable is better than allowing them to continue in their sin, especially if there is potential for harm to others.  And if their repentance is held out as a reward for one's forgiveness or to bully a victim into passivity..."look, he's repented, he's promised never to do it again, if you try to get him charged you will destroy his life!"...well that may be true.  May not be true.  But the one sinned against may have had their life destroyed by the predator and it is their right to do what must be done to rebuild it.  Restitution is not just saying I am sorry and will live a good life from now on.

I knew a woman who had an affair with a former bishop, both excommunicated both reinstated at the end of the year, though he had begged her not to confess because of the impact on their families.  She eventually confessed and he was called to be disciplined.  And while everyone was acting like this was a new chapter for him, he had repented, he was still leaving her messages telling her he loved her.  She chose not to share them because she worried about the impact on herself...would leaders assume she was reciprocating them, would he lie that she was?  It gets very, very complicated, figuring out what is healing and what isn’t  

And pushing forgiveness on others as an obligation is more likely to harm than heal, imo.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

he was rebuking you.

as have i.

Oh yes. he WAS rebuking me, Then he stopped when he read the scripture I shared. Funny the Spirit didn't affect you the same way. He repented. Perhaps you are in a different time zone and it will happen later?

Do not call other posters to repentance or imply that they need to repent.  We do not allow that.  ~Mods

[Classicslover]

35 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

No one is covering up sexual assault by leaders. No one is being racist. 

Speaking out publicly against your leaders saying yOT ou are right and they are wrong is exactly what Joseph warned us about.

You can't pick and choose what you want to follow the prophet on.

Really? Because "changed" actually shared SEVERAL examples of cover ups of sexual assaults by leaders.

And I shared several; examples of cover ups of racism by leaders.

So what ARE you basing your statement on? Your vast imagination?

Now you claim me in error for publicly speaking out against against leaders when the PROPHET agreed with me. TWICE.

Are you setting yourself above the Prophet?

My stake president stated that people should NOT PRAY about accepting callings.

You don't have to read very far into the Book of Mormon to discover THAT is false doctrine!

(Psst! False doctrine is BAD because it comes from Satan!)

Behold:

2 Nephi 32

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

See?

The stake president was teaching people not to pray.

The EVIL spirit teaches not to pray.

THEREFORE that stake president was following Satan.

We are NEVER obligated to follow a leader who is following Satan.

Now, the article by Elder Oaks which was quoted was NOT from a General Conference talk. NOT scripture.

And Joseph was talking about following the prophet. In case you are new to the church, a bishop or stake president is NOT the prophet.

Doctrine and Covenants 42

90 And if thy brother or sister offend many, he or she shall be chastened before many.

91 And if any one offend openly, he or she shall be rebuked openly, that he or she may be ashamed. And if he or she confess not, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of God.

Now, take a moment and THINK about why the Lord would say this?

Elder Russell M. Nelson stated that “real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontation—not acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.” So in those instances, one cannot just "let go", because love has a responsibility to act. "...Peer pressure tries to change a person’s attitudes, if not behavior, by making one feel guilty for giving offense. We seek respectful coexistence with those who point fingers, but when this fear of men tempts us to condone sin, it becomes a “snare” according to the book of Proverbs 29:25 The snare may be cleverly baited to appeal to our compassionate side to tolerate or even approve of something that has been condemned by God." [ Which Way Do You Face? by Elder Lynn G. Robbins of the Presidency of the Seventy, Oct. 2014 General Conference]  

 

 

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Depending on where he lives and if he has lived there always, I am not that skeptical.  There were a number of whites with over the top racism towards the First Nations in/from the small towns bordering the Blood Reserve in Canada.  One time we stopped to help a Blood family with five kids in a broken down pickup iirc at the side of the road, they had been stranded there for over an hour with no one stopping...and it was the road to the temple, so likely at least a dozen members to and from visiting the temple had passed them by among the other cars.  It was par for the course for them.  The dad was very sweet in thanking us for taking him into town to get help (no cell phone back then).

It seems easiest for people to 'grow out' of racist beliefs if they have little actual exposure, probably because the casual, everyday racist comments that establish attitudes are mostly missing.  I have wondered if moving into a community where racism is more accepted can switch the racism on because of greater opportunity to hear of negative experiences (real or imagined).  After all, seeing run down homes and unkept yards mile after mile proves NAs are lazy, right?  And chances are if you have a large group, there will be criminals among them that could used to support stereotypes (just as living in Utah makes it easier to find jerk Mormons to 'prove' any stereotype one cares to).

Thanks for the back up! Give me a moment to bask and luxuriate in the feeling! *Happy sigh!*

And yes, southern Alberta was the SECOND place in the Church I experienced racism. My friend and I and his girlfriend traveled to Cardston when I was a new member. One of the reasons was so I could see the temple! My friend needed new garments, so we stopped of for him to do that. All of us were inside the store. The guy at the desk leaned close to my friend and whispered: Are they Indians?"

He was REALLY lousy at whispering because I could hear him across the room.

My friend, said: "My girlfriend? No. She's Japanese."

"What about HIM?" the man asked.

My friend looked at me. And smiled. "I never really thought about it. Why would it matter?"

Hope you got to eat in Cobblestone Manor!

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Except as far as we can tell, they didn't in several cases.  She had three opportunities by her own report, including one with Elder Monson, where she states she didn't tell them about the rape.  Since she doesn't specify what she did tell them, it is possible that it did not include clear abuse (personal counseling sessions where inappropriate personal stories were shared could be blamed on inexperience in counseling).  Her claim is Leavitt wasn't dismissive and set her up with Asay.  So either her leaders weren't dismissive of her claims at least in being willing to talk with her or she is lying and one out of three was dismissive while the other two weren't given a chance as far as we can tell by the info she has shared (in the case of the therapist, she is very definite she told him nothing, she shares no details about meeting with Elder Monson, but she was sent back out so seems likely she followed the same pattern as she reported for the therapist and Elder Asay).

Okay if I am following you correctly, when was it that she became surprised that nothing had been done?  I may be remembering wrong...but the news stories I read said some thing about  her not saying anything until 1987. and she was promised that the church would investigate the matter. But then figured out that nothing happened.

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Forgiveness can certainly help...will bring, imo the only true deep to the bone healing.

However, forgiveness does not mean one shouldn't seek justice.  Holding those who sin accountable is better than allowing them to continue in their sin, especially if there is potential for harm to others.

And pushing forgiveness on others as an obligation is more likely to harm than heal, imo.

Internet HIGH FIVE!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Classicslover said:

Thanks for the back up! Give me a moment to bask and luxuriate in the feeling! *Happy sigh!*

And yes, southern Alberta was the SECOND place in the Church I experienced racism. My friend and I and his girlfriend traveled to Cardston when I was a new member. One of the reasons was so I could see the temple! My friend needed new garments, so we stopped of for him to do that. All of us were inside the store. The guy at the desk leaned close to my friend and whispered: Are they Indians?"

He was REALLY lousy at whispering because I could hear him across the room.

My friend, said: "My girlfriend? No. She's Japanese."

"What about HIM?" the man asked.

My friend looked at me. And smiled. "I never really thought about it. Why would it matter?"

Hope you got to eat in Cobblestone Manor!

No, just at Dairy Queen.  Favorite temple, I love the wood and colors.  Gold and crystal can be stunning, but feel at home in the first type of beauty.  Back then we didn't have much money and kids to get back to, though friends they could have stayed with.  If my neurological/movement disorder gets treated well enough for traveling, back to Canada and Cardston is probably the first place we will go and I will have to keep that place in mind.  Then Hawaii and Australia and New Zealand.  I would like to see Scotland and Kenya...my husband had fun in Kenya.

More likely in the next life though.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

We white people will never, ever comprehend what people of color go through. I'm embarrassed for my race, sick to my stomach. Now I sound like a racist against my race which is pretty lame since when have whites ever been the target? Btw, I was always so proud that my great grandmother was part Cherokee from Kentucky. So I don't know how much of a native American I am maybe just a drop who knows, but was so proud of that fact. 

Oh, please Tacenda, let's not fall into the trap of assuming collective guilt. What "white" people have done is nothing that any other race hasn't done, and is doing.  It's the disease of all humans, as called out in DC 121:39:

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

It is fashionable in the US and other places at the moment to act like white people are the sole villains of racist behavior, but it is conveniently forgotten that this kind of behavior is potentially in every member of the human race. To call out some particularly egregious examples, consider the following:

• When the Japanese occupied Korea, from 1910 - 1945, they treated the Korean people as "untermenschen", and attempted to stamp out the Korean language and culture, to supplant it with Japanese.  Why? Because Japanese culture was superior, a classically racist characteristic.  When the Japanese invaded China, they treated the Chinese just as badly, as for example the treatment meted out to the people of Nanking when that city fell to their army.  Note please that the people of Japan might be Asian, but the various peoples of Asia, although they "look the same" to most white people in the US, definitely recognize the differences.  
• The Armenian Genocide, 1915 - 1923, committed by the Turkic Muslim Ottoman Empire against the Caucasian Christian Armenians, wherein 1.5 million Armenians were rounded up and exterminated by various means.
• The Rwandan Genocide, committed in 1994 by the Hutus against the Tutsi in Rwanda, wherein up to 1 million Tutsis were systematically slaughtered.  You're thinking that the Hutus and the Tutsis belong to the same race, but sadly, they do not hold this to be the case.

You should not be ashamed of your race, nor should you be proud of your race.  The only race you should consider yourself is human.  And all of us are subject to the same frailties and failures -- and the same strengths and triumphs.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Have to remind you this is about being discriminated and harassed BY LDS. Especially leaders. Sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racist abuse BY leaders and covered up by leaders. You just need empathy. 

Yes, but I was responding to your  reply to Calm, wherein you put out a long list of "generic" racist or apparent racist behaviors that had seemed to have nothing to do with LDS as perps.  Or do you habitually get demands to show your receipts by LDS members?

I was interested by the incident with the police officer accosting you about a robbery. Regardless of which direction you were going, was the reported robbery committed by a white man, and the police officer just decided to pull over an Indian because he was a racist?  Or was the robbery committed by someone "of color", which you happened to resemble?  A number of years ago, I was driving in my neighborhood at night, on my way to somewhere, when I was pulled over by a police officer.  Since I had been driving rather placidly, I couldn't imagine what the problem was, but oh well, I started to get my documents in order for his delectation.  But when he came up to my driver's window, he took one look and hastily said "Nevermind! You can go!" and dashed back to his squad car and hurried off.  I was quite perplexed, but it later occurred to me that I had been pulled over because of the particular make, model and color of my car, but was sent on my way because of my race, which didn't match whoever it was he was looking for.  As it turned out, I was driving a rather old and distinctive model of car, and had noticed previously that there was one other car in town that was the same make, model and color. I don't know the race of its owner, having not noticed who the driver was on the couple of occasions I encountered the car in traffic.  Was he Black or Asian or Indian?  No clue.  Should the officer have arrested me, even though I didn't match the description of whoever, just to avoid looking racist?  Well, that's a lot of specualtion. Maybe he just got a call about a bank robbery and had to hurry off due to their being bigger fish to fry, and it had nothing to do with my car, my race, or anything else.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Stargazer

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

No, just at Dairy Queen.  Favorite temple, I love the wood and colors.  Gold and crystal can be stunning, but feel at home in the first type of beauty.  Back then we didn't have much money and kids to get back to, though friends they could have stayed with.  If my neurological/movement disorder gets treated well enough for traveling, back to Canada and Cardston is probably the first place we will go and I will have to keep that place in mind.  Then Hawaii and Australia and New Zealand.  I would like to see Scotland and Kenya...my husband had fun in Kenya.

More likely in the next life though.

It's my favorite temple too. LOVE the wood! My usual plan is to get to Cardston on a Monday and hit the temple Tuesday morning. And since it has a cafeteria, I don't have to leave until evening. (Food is cheaper too!) Then I do that everyday including Saturday. I'll happily add my prayers to yours that you get treated well enough for traveling! (Heavenly Father will know who I'm talking about!)

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Depending on where he lives and if he has lived there always, I am not that skeptical.  There were a number of whites with over the top racism towards the First Nations in/from the small towns bordering the Blood Reserve in Canada.  One time we stopped to help a Blood family with five kids in a broken down pickup iirc at the side of the road, they had been stranded there for over an hour with no one stopping...and it was the road to the temple, so likely at least a dozen members to and from visiting the temple had passed them by among the other cars.  It was par for the course for them.  The dad was very sweet in thanking us for taking him into town to get help (no cell phone back then).

It seems easiest for people to 'grow out' of racist beliefs if they have little actual exposure, probably because the casual, everyday racist comments that establish attitudes are mostly missing.  I have wondered if moving into a community where racism is more accepted can switch the racism on because of greater opportunity to hear of negative experiences (real or imagined).  After all, seeing run down homes and unkept yards mile after mile proves NAs are lazy, right?  And chances are if you have a large group, there will be criminals among them that could used to support stereotypes (just as living in Utah makes it easier to find jerk Mormons to 'prove' any stereotype one cares to).

I recognize this.  I've seen people who are First Nations / Native American getting treated poorly because they stood out as different -- even when trying to not stand out.  

And one of the few places I have ever noticed openly racist speech was, you called it, Utah.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Thanks for the back up! Give me a moment to bask and luxuriate in the feeling! *Happy sigh!*

And yes, southern Alberta was the SECOND place in the Church I experienced racism. My friend and I and his girlfriend traveled to Cardston when I was a new member. One of the reasons was so I could see the temple! My friend needed new garments, so we stopped of for him to do that. All of us were inside the store. The guy at the desk leaned close to my friend and whispered: Are they Indians?"

He was REALLY lousy at whispering because I could hear him across the room.

My friend, said: "My girlfriend? No. She's Japanese."

"What about HIM?" the man asked.

My friend looked at me. And smiled. "I never really thought about it. Why would it matter?"

Hope you got to eat in Cobblestone Manor!

Was that racism? To be curious about someone's race?  Or was this a situation with the receipts again?  <--- serious question, wondering if the guy was asking about your race because he was going to give you special (negative) treatment because of your race?

Note that I, too, have Native American ancestry.  Probably to about the same degree as Tacenda -- my great great grandmother was 100% Maidu Konkow (a Northern California tribe).  And despite what I told Tacenda, to only be proud of being of the human race, I feel a degree of pride in my Indian ancestry.  All men are my cousins, but my Native cousins are particularly precious to me for some weird reason or other.  I'm more German than anything else, but as my cousin Wallace (who definitely looks Indigenous) says, my Konkow blood calls out more loudly.  

[Classicslover]

35 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What "white" people have done is nothing that any other race hasn't done, and is doing

Curious. How many of the Japanese at that time were LDS? Or how many of the Turkic Muslims were...oh wait! Just answered my own question! Or how about the Hutus? How many Hutus were Mormon?

Mormons were solely responsible for the Circleville Massacre. Against...you guessed it! Native Americans. They probably would have preferred being denied the priesthood over being massacred, but perhaps I am being presumptuous?

Racism is ALWAYS something to be ashamed of.

Most especially when it's in the Church.

[Classicslover]

26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, but I was responding to your  reply to Calm, wherein you put out a long list of "generic" racist or apparent racist behaviors that had seemed to have nothing to do with LDS as perps.  Or do you habitually get demands to show your receipts by LDS members?

You don't seem to be following the conversation very well. 

"Calm" listed OTHER reasons that I was not taken at my word, here...so I provided examples from racist incidents in my life, ultimately drawing a parallel  to...here. And where is here? A site peopled by LDS  people!

The example of a receipt was part of a simile. 

They do teach "simile" where you're from, right?

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

Curious. How many of the Japanese at that time were LDS? Or how many of the Turkic Muslims were...oh wait! Just answered my own question! Or how about the Hutus? How many Hutus were Mormon?

Mormons were solely responsible for the Circleville Massacre. Against...you guessed it! Native Americans. They probably would have preferred being denied the priesthood over being massacred, but perhaps I am being presumptuous?

Racism is ALWAYS something to be ashamed of.

Most especially when it's in the Church.

No question about it.  And being human, we are ALL potentially subject to it.  My great great Aunt Katie Katrina was half-blood Konkow, and rejected her own youngest son, Frank, because he didn't look "Indian enough". Frank was raised by my great grandfather John (her brother) after about age 10 because she didn't want him.  Maybe it was her own fault because she married a Norwegian immigrant, but still...

But you seemed to have missed something, and that was my earlier note to you that when you were reciting that one list of apparent racist actions directed at you, none of them seemed to be committed by racist LDS.  Just racists in general.  Which is what prompted my response.  And my response to Tacenda, which you're bringing up here, had to do with her own shame at her own race, and not particularly the LDS members of that race.  

 

 

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

You don't seem to be following the conversation very well. 

Neither do you, actually.  

7 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

"Calm" listed OTHER reasons that I was not taken at my word, here...so I provided examples from racist incidents in my life, ultimately drawing a parallel  to...here. And where is here? A site peopled by LDS  people!

The example of a receipt was part of a simile. 

They do teach "simile" where you're from, right?

Sorry, it sounded like a literal.

 

 

[Classicslover]

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Was that racism? To be curious about someone's race?  Or was this a situation with the receipts again?  <--- serious question, wondering if the guy was asking about your race because he was going to give you special (negative) treatment because of your race?

Note that I, too, have Native American ancestry.  Probably to about the same degree as Tacenda -- my great great grandmother was 100% Maidu Konkow (a Northern California tribe).  And despite what I told Tacenda, to only be proud of being of the human race, I feel a degree of pride in my Indian ancestry.  All men are my cousins, but my Native cousins are particularly precious to me for some weird reason or other.  I'm more German than anything else, but as my cousin Wallace (who definitely looks Indigenous) says, my Konkow blood calls out more loudly.  

Fair question! You mentioned that you've been persecuted for being LDS. Now, there are times when someone asks if you are LDS and they don't mean "Oh Yay!" There are times it reads as hostile. Or disgusted. The man in question was NOT of the "Oh Yay!" variety. I was not endowed then, so I had no purchases to make there. If I had, more negative treatment would have been there than just the obvious disgust.  

Funny, you have Native American blood, and my Dad's Dad was born in Wittle-le-woods, England. Am I spelling that right?

Your "Konkow blood calls out more loudly." That happens.

Tacenda seems to be hearing it a bit!

Personally, I hear both sides strongly...and at times they take turns being more dominant.

With the cop looking to catch the mall thief, it turned out that it was a grab and run with no real description. So he went out and searched the first Indian in the vicinity he saw.

Because, of course, the Indian is always wrong. That was a legal precedent established in the late 1400's.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Oh, please Tacenda, let's not fall into the trap of assuming collective guilt. What "white" people have done is nothing that any other race hasn't done, and is doing.  It's the disease of all humans, as called out in DC 121:39:

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

It is fashionable in the US and other places at the moment to act like white people are the sole villains of racist behavior, but it is conveniently forgotten that this kind of behavior is potentially in every member of the human race. To call out some particularly egregious examples, consider the following:

• When the Japanese occupied Korea, from 1910 - 1945, they treated the Korean people as "untermenschen", and attempted to stamp out the Korean language and culture, to supplant it with Japanese.  Why? Because Japanese culture was superior, a classically racist characteristic.  When the Japanese invaded China, they treated the Chinese just as badly, as for example the treatment meted out to the people of Nanking when that city fell to their army.  Note please that the people of Japan might be Asian, but the various peoples of Asia, although they "look the same" to most white people in the US, definitely recognize the differences.  
• The Armenian Genocide, 1915 - 1923, committed by the Turkic Muslim Ottoman Empire against the Caucasian Christian Armenians, wherein 1.5 million Armenians were rounded up and exterminated by various means.
• The Rwandan Genocide, committed in 1994 by the Hutus against the Tutsi in Rwanda, wherein up to 1 million Tutsis were systematically slaughtered.  You're thinking that the Hutus and the Tutsis belong to the same race, but sadly, they do not hold this to be the case.

You should not be ashamed of your race, nor should you be proud of your race.  The only race you should consider yourself is human.  And all of us are subject to the same frailties and failures -- and the same strengths and triumphs.

We are more familiar with our own history  and live with the consequences of our own race’s Behavior, so it is understandable if that seems massive to us.  But it is just another form of arrogance to think we are the worst in history just as it would be if we awarded ourselves best.  

If one really cares about recognizing racism, then taking the time to learn what it looks like beyond the borders of one’s own nation is a good start.

Turning our own country’s racism into some mythic horror is more likely to result in doing nothing than looking at it realistically.  

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

47 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And one of the few places I have ever noticed openly racist speech was, you called it, Utah.

You will be heartened to know that for five years on BYU campus, I never experienced any overt racism...except when I went home on breaks.

The only hostility I encountered in Provo was when I was grouped into a "wimpy college boy" category with a friend of mine as an unfriendly local cursed at us as while we crossed the street on a walk light. He abandoned his car at the intersection and proceeded to run down the street after us with a tire iron.

I noted this, and turned and walked rapidly back toward him. After all of the racists trying to beat me up with increasing numbers, one guy with a tire iron was not scary to me at all. I would have fed it to him if he had not run away.  

[Classicslover]

Calm?

You're still up? AND thinking clearly I see!

Well, you're tougher than me!

I'm going to call it a night!

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

Curious. How many of the Japanese at that time were LDS? Or how many of the Turkic Muslims were...oh wait! Just answered my own question! Or how about the Hutus? How many Hutus were Mormon?

Mormons were solely responsible for the Circleville Massacre. Against...you guessed it! Native Americans. They probably would have preferred being denied the priesthood over being massacred, but perhaps I am being presumptuous?

Racism is ALWAYS something to be ashamed of.

Most especially when it's in the Church.

OK, now that we've probably gotten off on the wrong foot, let me ask you what tribe or group do you belong to?

My own Native ancestry is Konkow, a northern California tribe of the Maidu people.  We're still not entirely organized on the web level (the council is still "considering" the matter), but the Cultural Association has a website, and as the tribal website administrator, I have a placeholder website up, awaiting final specifications.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

No question about it.  And being human, we are ALL potentially subject to it....

If we don’t have racism to appeal to, we can easily find something else to turn us into some version of haves and have nots. In upper Cache Valley, my great great mother lived in a town that had a number of polygamous families along with monogamous. She told of how the monogamous wives made a big show of pitying the poor polygamous women in their pathetic lives of endless drudgery and loneliness, but her mom (polygamous wife,one of those who told her husband it was time to take another wife and pointed out an acceptable candidate) would smugly talk about how a monogamous home never had its doorstep polished, monogamous women were well known to be poor housekeepers, very lazy and the way they treated their husbands!  I doubt either view was very realistic. And what a waste of emotional energy when they lived in a time where the unity of community was so Important to move past subsistence living. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

Calm?

You're still up? AND thinking clearly I see!

Well, you're tougher than me!

I'm going to call it a night!

My neurological disorder is sleep related, most people see it as sleep disorder, but it is 24/7 these days for me.  You will often see me here at odd hours, rarely in the morning. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Classicslover said:

Okay if I am following you correctly, when was it that she became surprised that nothing had been done?  I may be remembering wrong...but the news stories I read said some thing about  her not saying anything until 1987. and she was promised that the church would investigate the matter. But then figured out that nothing happened.

Missed this, will work on a timeline tomorrow when I can. Might have to wait a bit. I will need to review the various documents out there to make sure I don’t confuse things. Remind me if I forget.