Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit

[Classicslover]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Heh. Whereas I am up way before ya'll.  It's 11:20 am here, and we are getting ready to take a train into London for the weekend.  If I can drag myself away from the laptop long enough.

Well.. you're already there...so have a safe and very fun experience!

[Classicslover]

8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Do you think mocking the Spirit is really going to help your case?

I wasn't mocking the Spirit.

[Classicslover]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

You're kind of hard to have a discussion with because you keep moving the goal posts.  We weren't talking about standing up for truth or false doctrine when we were talking about Alma.  You used the 'what about Alma and JS?' analogy when you were trying to argue that we don't need to hear both sides of your story and that we should just believe you.

And like I said before, stories of Alma and JS in the scriptures do not support that we should just believe whatever you say is true.

Yes we were talking about Alma standing up for truth against Korihor who was teaching false doctrine. Now, one of the purposes of that story is teach us to stand up for truth against false doctrine. Apply the scriptures to ourselves. Which I did. Soooo...the EXAMPLE would be that when teaching a principle you CAN talk about people being in error even when they are not there. Heavenly Father was not going to keep Korihor alive forever JUST so you could hear his side.

Did you want to hear the side of the people the Lord chased out of the temple with a whip too?

In fact. one of the racist bishops I mentioned is now dead as well.  And I truly hope that you have to wait a great many decades before you hear his side.

When teaching a gospel principle one can use a parable. And according to http://www.dictionary.com/browse/parable a parable is  a

noun

a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Curious. Are you somehow of the opinion that Native Americans cannot use parables?

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Nope, I don't believe that.  We weren't even talking about that.  You're trying to move the goal posts again so you don't have to deal with what posters are actually saying.

You WERE actually saying that you could have the Spirit confirm confirm the truth of the scriptures and the plates, suggesting that you somehow could not use the Spirit to confirm the truth of what I said about racist leaders. keep up.

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

You are really good with taking scriptures out of context and applying them in ways that they were never meant to be implied, believing that they somehow prove your point when they don't

Whoa! And there you would be VERY wrong in an epic sense! Take a look at this!

President Hinckley pleaded with us to stand for what we believe:

"We cannot be indifferent to the great cause of truth and right. We cannot afford to stand on the sidelines and watch the play between the forces of good and evil. Wrote John the Revelator: “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth” (Revelation 3:15–16).

[Gordon B. Hinckley, Standing for Something (New York: Times Books, 2000), 171–72]

So when I said:

What;'s more, you somehow believe that being neutral is somehow "noble".

You're wrong.

 Revelation 3:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I was applying the scriptures EXACTLY the way they are supposed to be applied according to President Hinckley. (Means I'm right.)

 

[Classicslover]

6 hours ago, changed said:

 

So sorry to hear of your experiences.  Yes, I rather got into it with our own bishop - first because he was handing a temple recommend to someone who was not worthy, and second for asking someone to work with YM who should not be working around WM.  I won both arguments, but felt bad having to stand up to the person who was supposed to be "called of G-d".  

Reading in the New Testament, Jesus' own disciples seemed to be a real mess though - they were often clueless on what was happening or what they were supposed to be doing.  Jesus was always having to correct them etc.  That is who the original 12 were, and the current leaders are not much better - not sure what to do with that - I think unstable leaders force us to walk on our own two feet you know?  Force us to have our own personal relationship with the Savior and G-d - at least that is what I am taking from it.  When Peter "the rock" denies Christ, and Judas betrays them - I mean that is who some of the current leaders are too.  

I attend church, but I do not have a temple recommend because I do not sustain church leaders or think the prophet is the only one on Earth to be led by God etc. etc.  Call someone an apostle or a pophet - even the apostles and prophets in the scriptures - they are not always reliable or worthy - so I guess it is just up to each of us individually to pray, and find our own beliefs, and find our own connection with our Heavenly Family.  

No middle-men.  That is perhaps the lesson in all of this.  No middle-men.  

I received this letter from Elder L. Tom Perry, "Dear Brother ...: You brought up so many situations it is impossible to render a rapid decision to you on your concerns. However, you must know that salvation is an individual thing. It doesn't come to wards or stakes or any organizational unit. It is individual. So while we are sorting through and finding answers...you must hang on, support and sustain your sweet family so this does not become a barrier to you in your eternal progress. I will send your letter to the area presidency... Once again, don't let temporal problems retard your spiritual progress towards eternal life." Signed L. Tom Perry

So as Elder Perry clearly pointed out...salvation is an individual thing. But the Lord does have "middlemen" in His church...and those middlemen from sad experience do often drop the ball. 

No one from the area presidency contacted me in regards to gathering the evidence I had. OR asking which witnesses they could talk to. I can only guess that they simply contacted the stake president who was part of the problem and he claimed there was no problem.

I had hard evidence, I had witnesses...MORE THAN TWO...because out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established...but they had zero interest in establishing the truth.

Like I said before, it actually only works when they use the Spirit and are interested in the truth. And they did NOT sort through to find answers like Elder Perry wanted them to.

But it was just some Indian complaining, right?

So I think the lesson, really is to have the RIGHT middle men.

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I know he has been banned but it really annoys me when people try to put words in my mouth and completely ignore the question I asked.

but I guess it’s something we have to deal with in life. God bless

The problem is that the question you asked was insultingly dismissive.  It is the question people always ask when they they have no intention of listening because their mind is already made up that everything that CAN be done IS being done and completely IGNORE the fact that it is not enough.  It is the question "distant" people ask without empathy and nothing personally at stake.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I know he has been banned but it really annoys me when people try to put words in my mouth and completely ignore the question I asked.

but I guess it’s something we have to deal with in life. God bless

Changed is "she".

[juliann]

36 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

 

Curious. Are you somehow of the opinion that Native Americans cannot use parables?

You WERE actually saying that you could have the Spirit confirm confirm the truth of the scriptures and the plates, suggesting that you somehow could not use the Spirit to confirm the truth of what I said about racist leaders. keep up.

Whoa! And there you would be VERY wrong in an epic sense! Take a look at this!

 

 

You're wrong.

 

I was applying the scriptures EXACTLY the way they are supposed to be applied according to President Hinckley. (Means I'm right.)

 

Bluebell is one of the most beloved and respected posters because she is thoughtful and fair. You are being rude. Very rude. And every bit as dismissive as you accuse others of being. It's not a good look for a newbie, just sayin'. 

[Classicslover]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

Bluebell is one of the most beloved and respected posters because she is thoughtful and fair. You are being rude. Very rude. And every bit as dismissive as you accuse others of being. It's not a good look for a newbie, just sayin'. 

Beloved or not, she actually was not being fair. And was first insultingly dismissive. Which is a very bad look when dealing with issues of racist abuse.

[Calm]

This board is rather unusual since we have an academic slant to it.  Including God and spiritual experiences and beliefs into this mix can be tricky when not everyone understands God in the same way or even believes there is anything divine in existence, so mods have made some general rules about how spiritual witnesses can be used.  Lots of posters and lurkers use it for education and research, thoughmany conversations are more on the casual side and often debates come down to opinion.  It is for both dialogue and debating.  We also have a wide range of faith positions represented and to encourage constructive interaction, mods have decided that telling others what they believe, whether they are faithful enough, etc. is not allowed.  Even though LDS believers are the dominant group, using the Spirit to trump others or as evidence of anything save your personal experience isn't considered appropriate tactics.  If that is the kind of conversation you are looking for, I don't think you will find it on this board.  Saying the Spirit has witnessed to you is not accepted as evidence for anything but your personal beliefs...even if you are LDS talking to other LDS, though if you have been around for awhile and developed relationships with other posters, they may take your word because there is evidence in your posting history you can generally back up your ideas with reason and empirical evidence.

If you have a problem with another poster, reporting them is the best way to handle it.  Putting them on ignore if their posts annoy you is another useful tool.  Telling other posters they aren't being Christlike, don't have the Spirit, etc. can get you banned...it has been demonstrated over the long history of the board that such comments are discussions stoppers that derail the conversations into judgments of others' personality, faithfulness, righteousness, etc...and that just doesn't work for the purpose of the board which is to explore different ideas and perspectives in mostly civil ways.

Because of this, we don't generally just accept broad claims or necessarily personal claims if they are generally applied.  That something is your personal perspective likely won't be questioned, but that it has to be accepted by others just on your personal testimony won't be.  Bluebell was not being unfair or dismissive, she was just following the typical board process of getting to the core of what can be known and what can't be with the tools that are used in board discussion.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Bluebell was not being unfair or dismissive, she was just following the typical board process of getting to the core of what can be known and what can't be with the tools that are used in board discussion.

Have to respectfully disagree. She cast doubt on my life experiences with the evils of racism and then excuses it with "board process?" Wow. That really makes everything all better. 

[Calm]

Just now, Classicslover said:

Have to respectfully disagree. She cast doubt on my life experiences with the evils of racism and then excuses it with "board process?" Wow. That really makes everything all better. 

She didn't excuse it with board process.  I explained it that way.

I think you are misreading her due to faulty assumptions of what she intended.

[Classicslover]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

She didn't excuse it with board process.  I explained it that way.

I think you are misreading her due to faulty assumptions of what she intended.

Then how do we know that your assumptions of what she intended are not faulty, if you don't mind my asking?

Edited June 16, 2018 by Classicslover

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

Then how do we know that your assumptions of what she intended are not faulty, if you don't mind my asking?

You don't, but I have known her here and elsewhere for over a decade and we have talked about endless subjects where we seem to be understanding each other.  Your interpretation of how she responded is very atypical for her in my experience and is not consistent with her behaviour at other times.  There have been and are posters here I would be more open to claims they were unfair and dismissive, Bluebell just isn't one of them.

She may have poorly explained herself, yet  it still seems reasonable to those of us who know her because we attach the nuances she means while you lack the familiarity to be able to do the same.  If we had another couple of newbies around to read her comments and see how they interpret it, it would be interesting to me to see if there was much difference.

It may be your history where you have encountered a lot of doubt and dismissiveness that it makes sense for you to assume her comments mean this, but it just doesn't fit Bluebell's personality.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

You don't, but I have known her here and elsewhere for over a decade and we have talked about endless subjects where we seem to be understanding each other.  Your interpretation of how she responded is very atypical for her and is not consistent with her behaviour at other times.  There have been and are posters here I would be more open to claims they were unfair and dismissive, Bluebell just isn't one of them.

So you both met in high school then.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

So you both met in high school then.

I wish...grandma here.  This year is my 6 0...sigh.

It is sometimes hard for me to grasp, but this board and another one where many of us hung out before this one has been allowing us to discuss almost all things LDS (some temple stuff is off limits out of respect for sacred beliefs) and quite a bit not for 15 years and longer for those who started on the AOL forums (I missed out as we were in Canada during those years and AOL wasn't available in Calgary).

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Classicslover said:

The problem is that the question you asked was insultingly dismissive.  It is the question people always ask when they they have no intention of listening because their mind is already made up that everything that CAN be done IS being done and completely IGNORE the fact that it is not enough.  It is the question "distant" people ask without empathy and nothing personally at stake.

How is asking someone their ideas to fix what they are complaining about dismissive?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

How is asking someone their ideas to fix what they are complaining about dismissive?

Since this board is about sharing ideas even though we know we won't generally be able to implement them for each other (but every now and then someone's idea is broadly useful), asking for explanations and clarifications and details  usually means we want to know.  I get that sometimes people do this in real life so they can look compassionate and interested, but then nothing happens.  Had that happen many times, very annoying.  

Here where generally nothing can happen, at least on a personal level in real life since we live far apart if we even know where others live, it is the idea people are interested in.  There is no benefit to just asking to look good here because responses are purely verbal and pretty immediate and if one drops the ball in the exchange, it is usually obvious quickly.

Iow, Avatar, I am agreeing asking is not dismissive here.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calm

[Classicslover]

40 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

How is asking someone their ideas to fix what they are complaining about dismissive?

 

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Iow, Avatar, I am agreeing asking is not dismissive here.

Well lets take a closer look at that shall we?

On a post SHE made in which she was bemoaning the obvious victim shaming, Avatar4321 stated:

"One of the reasons the church exists to help sinners to repent. Victims don’t need to repent of anything. The healing for victims that comes through the atonement using comes from personal prayer and discussion with bishops or close friends.

what exactly do you think we should do for victims that isn’t done?"

So RIGHT AFTER the victim shaming...she gets from you that the CHURCH as an organization is there to help the VICTIMIZERS, while the victims can just go pray away their troubles themselves.

THEN you follow with the thinly veiled "What are you talking about? Everything has already been done!"

Which is more than insulting. It is cruel.

Basically, you just stabbed her in the heart.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Classicslover

[Classicslover]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wish...grandma here.  This year is my 6 0...sigh.

Still a youngster then.

[Avatar4321]

16 minutes ago, Classicslover said:

 

Well lets take a closer look at that shall we?

On a post SHE made in which she was bemoaning the obvious victim shaming, Avatar4321 stated:

"One of the reasons the church exists to help sinners to repent. Victims don’t need to repent of anything. The healing for victims that comes through the atonement using comes from personal prayer and discussion with bishops or close friends.

what exactly do you think we should do for victims that isn’t done?"

So RIGHT AFTER the victim shaming...she gets from you that the CHURCH as an organization is there to help the VICTIMIZERS, while the victims can just go pray away their troubles themselves.

THEN you follow with the thinly veiled "What are you talking about? Everything has already been done!"

Which is more than insulting. It is cruel.

Basically, you just stabbed her in the heart.

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that victims do need to repent of being victimized? I’ve never heard of such a doctrine.

are we supposed to pretend we aren’t supposed to call sinners to repentance? We aren’t supposed to support them in their rehabilitation? And their reconciliation with those they may have hurt?

i don’t understand the point of criticizing the fact that we are doing what we have been called to do. 

And what do you want us to do to help victims that we aren’t already doing?

 

[Classicslover]

28 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Are you suggesting that victims do need to repent of being victimized? I’ve never heard of such a doctrine.

Where exactly did you see that typed? Are you split screen with some cave man organization? I wrote nothing where that can even be inferred. Oh! Perhaps you are projecting your own feelings?

28 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

are we supposed to pretend we aren’t supposed to call sinners to repentance? We aren’t supposed to support them in their rehabilitation? And their reconciliation with those they may have hurt?

You seem to be quite fixated on the sinners when both "changed" and I were talking about victims. Why can't you relate to the victims?

28 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

i don’t understand the point of criticizing the fact that we are doing what we have been called to do. 

The point being is that you are like a guy whose car once had a dead battery so a booster cable is the solution to every problem. That's what you know. That is what you are comfortable with dealing with. Changing gaskets is beyond your comfort zone...and the world is full of gaskets that need changing. You can either learn and be of help, or stubbornly stick to standing to the side with your booster cables. Waiting. Means you have to learn new things to help people. With WHAT THEY NEED...not just what you're willing to offer.

28 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

And what do you want us to do to help victims that we aren’t already doing?

 It pains me to have to say this, but you have to START by actually LISTENING! Now here is where you will say you asked "changed" what she needed.

But she knew it was useless to tell you because you ALREADY were NOT listening.

Case in point: She complained of victim shaming...AND YOU ARGUED WITH HER.

That was all about YOU!

You showed that YOUR thoughts and feelings were more important than HERS.

When a lady (or any victim) says it appears to her as VICTIM shaming, you say: "Yes. Things are NOT good as they are. I can see there is so much to change. I'm willing to change. I am willing to help change things. Let's discuss ways."

Unless you are really not. Then step aside. Or ask to be released.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Classicslover

[Classicslover]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

She may have poorly explained herself, yet  it still seems reasonable to those of us who know her because we attach the nuances she means while you lack the familiarity to be able to do the same.  If we had another couple of newbies around to read her comments and see how they interpret it, it would be interesting to me to see if there was much difference.

It may be your history where you have encountered a lot of doubt and dismissiveness that it makes sense for you to assume her comments mean this, but it just doesn't fit Bluebell's personality.

You added to this when I wasn't looking! I quoted the ENTIRE previous version and responded to it.

How am supposed to respond to something when you sneak it in something I've already read?

I actually would have noticed it sooner if you just made it another direct reply.

[Calm]

I will try and remember that you prefer that in the future.  I have such an excessive number of posts already, it is embarrassing, so I add on to posts if I have an additional thought rather than start a new post.  If people miss it that doesn't bother me (hopefulky got in that last part soon enough).

"So RIGHT AFTER the victim shaming..."

I may have missed it, where is it you see victim shaming?  I see saying victims don't need to repent of anything, which means to me they have done nothing wrong.

Also suggested healing comes from getting support from God, bishops, and friends, which seems in line with some of what you have said.

------

There has been quite a bit of talk before this thread on how posters think the Church could expand its efforts or do better in what they do now.  Below are some thoughts I have talked about before...

I do think more official victim support groups would be a good idea.  It would be worth it imo for the Church to invest in additional training and even paying professionals where available to run groups.  Abuse is widespread enough, I think there would be enough to make them work in most places.  It would be one case of humanitarian work that carries a relatively unique LDS approach, so not something that is duplicated by other organizations which often benefit from the Church's support when it is seen as more efficient to support established groups than start an LDS one.

Hopefully, with the increased attention to victims in our greater culture here in the US, more LDS victims will be wanting to open up and work together as being able to hear from others who have experience similar things and survived it is one of the most useful tools for healing, imo.

I really think more publication of the abuse hotline and expanding it to any member would be wise, though the process would need to be somewhat different.  Even just helping victims and those reporting abuse to get hooked up with already established organizations/hotlines/support groups through a Church approved hotline would likely help victims feel more comfortable...someone familiar introducing them in other words.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Classics, I haven't forgotten the timeline, got to drag out my laptop for more complicated searching and quoting.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Calm

[USU78]

10 hours ago, changed said:

Victim shaming - great.

C

F

R

as to where I victim shamed in the post you responded to.