All things created spiritually before naturally

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I had never even heard of Penrose until he found the name some where in some book from the 1920s

Charles W. Penrose was an Apostle from 1904 to 1911. The problem with him and other church leaders at the time is that they often used the word "Trinity" when speaking about the Godhead. But if you read other things they said, they didn't define the word the same way other Christians did then or do today.  As a result Church leaders made an effort to quit using the term so much in their talks and literature. 

[Stargazer]

On 6/11/2018 at 3:31 PM, snowflake said:

 

I'm often confused why the LDS don't believe in science. The big bang clearly supports ex-nihilo. 

Uh, no.

It only supports the arrival of the universe.  All the matter that the universe consists of suddenly emerged from the initial singularity, but it is impossible to see into that singularity, or before it.  Physics cannot define what happened beforehand.  Therefore, we cannot know if the universe came into being from nothingness, or existed in some other form previously.

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Stargazer

[Josh Khinder]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

For as long as Josh has been posting here, he has only quoted Penrose.  He has this obsession with him.  It doesn't matter what any other prophets have said, Penrose is the only official authority who can speak for the church in Josh's mind. 

President Charles W Penrose at general Conference did say that and since it agrees with Traditional Christianity I like it  😃

[JAHS]

6 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

20 hours ago, pogi said:

For as long as Josh has been posting here, he has only quoted Penrose.  He has this obsession with him.  It doesn't matter what any other prophets have said, Penrose is the only official authority who can speak for the church in Josh's mind. 

President Charles W Penrose at general Conference did say that and since it agrees with Traditional Christianity I like it

Here is something else Elder Penrose said:
"We worship God the Father—first person in the Trinity; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ—second person in the Trinity; under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Ghost—third person in the Trinity, bearing witness of the Father and the Son. These constitute the Godhead, and are ONE. Not one person, but one in perfect unison of mind, spirit, purpose and action, as all the sons of God will be when exalted unto the perfection of "the gods."
Each of the Divine beings in the Holy Trinity is separate and distinct from the others. The Father has a body of flesh and bones, the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a "personage of spirit" (Doc. and Cov. 130). In their personality neither of them can be in more than one place at one time, no matter how speedily or by what means he can move through illimitable space." (Improvement Era 1914)

This doesn't really sound like the traditional Christianity understanding of the Trinity.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/10/2018 at 10:15 PM, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

Nobody is better qualified to answer above Q's than you. Your answers will be as good as anyone's.

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/10/2018 at 11:15 PM, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

“It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth, and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declares that Adam was ‘the first man of all men’ (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; and whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our heavenly Father." 

(The First Presidency [Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund], in James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 4:205–6). 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/7-creation?lang=eng - 

https://www.amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Darwinism-Intelligent-Design/dp/1596980133 - definitely worth reading

 

 

 

[RevTestament]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:04 PM, Josh Khinder said:

Not one 4th or 5th century Creed teaches God is "without body, parts, or passions" We know Jesus is in heaven with a resurrected body and he has parts and passions 😃

I described the scriptural problem with this which you ignored. Per Isa 9:6 Yeshua is to be called the "everlasting Father." As the Father will he still have a resurrected body or will your "unchanging God" change and lose His body. If He has a body as the Father, then the orthodox assumption that the Father has no body falls apart - not to mention that according to the doctrine of the trinity the Son is not the Father. Scripture says He will be. 

The Hebrew word typically translated as "God" is El and its forms. The ancient Semitic word seems to mean "the power." Can more than one be "the power?" Scripture clearly indicates yes, so it is not talking about one being, but one power. Can more than one being be called YHWH? First it is important to know the derivation of this word. Did you know the early Hebrew words were formed by combining picture ideas of letters? Did you know that the letters of YHWH can mean "Behold the nail, behold the hand?" How did the Father get that name? How are He and the Son one YHWH/Lord?  You see the English translation of "Lord" hides a lot. It hides the nature of God, and who the Father is. The name became too holy for the Jews to speak, so they didn't think about it, but read in this context, try reading the OT again.

[Josh Khinder]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Here is something else Elder Penrose said:
"We worship God the Father—first person in the Trinity; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ—second person in the Trinity; under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Ghost—third person in the Trinity, bearing witness of the Father and the Son. These constitute the Godhead, and are ONE. Not one person, but one in perfect unison of mind, spirit, purpose and action, as all the sons of God will be when exalted unto the perfection of "the gods."
Each of the Divine beings in the Holy Trinity is separate and distinct from the others. The Father has a body of flesh and bones, the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a "personage of spirit" (Doc. and Cov. 130). In their personality neither of them can be in more than one place at one time, no matter how speedily or by what means he can move through illimitable space." (Improvement Era 1914)

This doesn't really sound like the traditional Christianity understanding of the Trinity.

What part isn't Tradition Christianity since we teach 3 separate and distinct persons, however before Jesus came to this broken world he shared equality, wealth and Joy with the other 2 persons and was co-equal and co-eternal .

Alma 11:44 

 

 

[Josh Khinder]

[Josh Khinder]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

Here is something else Elder Penrose said:
"We worship God the Father—first person in the Trinity; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ—second person in the Trinity; under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Ghost—third person in the Trinity, bearing witness of the Father and the Son. These constitute the Godhead, and are ONE. Not one person, but one in perfect unison of mind, spirit, purpose and action, as all the sons of God will be when exalted unto the perfection of "the gods."
Each of the Divine beings in the Holy Trinity is separate and distinct from the others. The Father has a body of flesh and bones, the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a "personage of spirit" (Doc. and Cov. 130). In their personality neither of them can be in more than one place at one time, no matter how speedily or by what means he can move through illimitable space." (Improvement Era 1914)

This doesn't really sound like the traditional Christianity understanding of the Trinity.

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Josh, your responses to people's posts just don't make any sense. What are you trying to say that might be different from what the current church doctrines teach today? 

[Josh Khinder]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Josh, your responses to people's posts just don't make any sense. What are you trying to say that might be different from what the current church doctrines teach today? 

What traditional Christians taught in the first century is still the same as today , while Mormonism is quite different .

President , First and second Counselors, Elder Quorum Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Wards, Ward Clerks, Stake Presidents, Stake High Councilmen, Regional Representatives ,Sunbeams, Boy scouts, Mia-maids, Temple Recorders, etc.

 

http://i.imgur.com/G2crg22.jpg

Edited June 15, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

What traditional Christians taught in the first century is still the same as today , while Mormonism is quite different .

President , First and second Counselors, Elder Quorum Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Wards, Ward Clerks, Stake Presidents, Stake High Councilmen, Regional Representatives ,Sunbeams, Boy scouts, Mia-maids, Temple Recorders, etc.

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/G2crg22.jpg

 

If you haven't noticed, our Lord's Church today has apostles and prophets and all of those other officers and positions you mentioned.... + a lot more because we are a bigger organization now with millions and millions of members.

Don't you have secretaries and youth ministers and song leaders and other people in various positions in your own church?   Same kinda thing as that, except that our church is also the true church of Jesus Christ.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

What traditional Christians taught in the first century is still the same as today , while Mormonism is quite different .

 

Not true. There was no trinity in the first century, for instance. There were diverse opinions about the divinity of Jesus, and their notions of atonement were different from what many Christians believe today. There was also disagreement about the status of Mosaic law.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Josh, your responses to people's posts just don't make any sense. What are you trying to say that might be different from what the current church doctrines teach today? 

What traditional Christians taught in the first century is still the same as today , while Mormonism is quite different .

President , First and second Counselors, Elder Quorum Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Wards, Ward Clerks, Stake Presidents, Stake High Councilmen, Regional Representatives ,Sunbeams, Boy scouts, Mia-maids, Temple Recorders, etc.

Well now you are talking about organizational differences. I am referring to the earlier posts about the concept of the Godhead and you quote Penrose who I have also quoted to show that he taught nothing different than what we do today. Why are you pulling statements out of context from things he said? 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

What part isn't Tradition Christianity since we teach 3 separate and distinct persons, however before Jesus came to this broken world he shared equality, wealth and Joy with the other 2 persons and was co-equal and co-eternal .

Well, for starters, this:

Quote

Not one person, but one in perfect unison of mind, spirit, purpose and action, as all the sons of God will be when exalted unto the perfection of "the gods."

Penrose is not teaching a oneness of substance (traditional trinity), but of mind, spirit, purpose, and action.  He is saying that they are one in the same way that we will be one with them - not in substance.

Then this:

Quote

The Father has a body of flesh and bones

Sorry, but you wont find THAT in the traditional trinity.

And this:

Quote

In their personality neither of them can be in more than one place at one time, no matter how speedily or by what means he can move through illimitable space.

Traditional trinitarian belief (correct me if I am wrong) teaches that God the Father fills all space. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by pogi

[Josh Khinder]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Not true. There was no trinity in the first century, for instance. There were diverse opinions about the divinity of Jesus, and their notions of atonement were different from what many Christians believe today. There was also disagreement about the status of Mosaic law.

The Trinity was already developed in 556 BC in The Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 31:21 according to President Charles w Penrose 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

The Trinity was already developed in 556 BC in The Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 31:21 according to President Charles w Penrose 

 

 

Oh gosh. 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Well, for starters, this:

Penrose is not teaching a oneness of substance (traditional trinity), but of mind, spirit, purpose, and action.  He is saying that they are one in the same way that we will be one with them - not in substance.

Then this:

Sorry, but you wont find THAT in the traditional trinity.

And this:

Traditional trinitarian belief (correct me if I am wrong) teaches that God the Father fills all space. 

You're asking him to correct you?

 

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You're asking him to correct you?

 

Touché 

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

The Trinity was already developed in 556 BC in The Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 31:21 according to President Charles w Penrose 

 

I don't care who says it, that's incorrect.

But on that note, the BOM does contain a large number of theological and doctrinal anachronisms, which is why its lack of historicity is more or less assumed.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Gray

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

What traditional Christians taught in the first century is still the same as today , while Mormonism is quite different .

President , First and second Counselors,

Peter, James, and John. remember those three? Peter was the rock or revelation on which Christ would build His Church. James and John? Well they only went to the mount of transfiguration with Yeshua. Hmm. Is that like President and 2 counselors?

Quote

Elder Quorum Presidents,

Luke 10:1,17

1 After these things the Lord ^aappointed other ^bseventy also, and sent them ^ctwo and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

I bet your Church doesn't have other seventy. 

Quote

Relief Society Presidents, Wards, Ward Clerks, Stake Presidents, Stake High Councilmen, Regional Representatives ,Sunbeams, Boy scouts, Mia-maids, Temple Recorders, etc.

Well gosh. I guess we can change the name of the Mia-maids then. I never liked that name.

 

As for the first century, Gray makes a good point. No doctrine of the Trinity then my friend. You can look until you're blue in the face - please do, and report back with all the evidence. No my friend an honest appraisal of the historical record leads one to conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity evolved into existence. It simply is not scriptural, and I pose is an enemy to Christ, which is why He told Joseph Smith the creeds are an abomination.

[Josh Khinder]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

Well, for starters, this:

Penrose is not teaching a oneness of substance (traditional trinity), but of mind, spirit, purpose, and action.  He is saying that they are one in the same way that we will be one with them - not in substance.

Then this:

Sorry, but you wont find THAT in the traditional trinity.

And this:

Traditional trinitarian belief (correct me if I am wrong) teaches that God the Father fills all space. 

Substance means Godhead  or God  - 3 persons ONE GOD just like 2 Nephi 31:21, Alma 11:44, Mormon 7:7 and the testimony of the 3 witnesses - So the Book of Mormon clearly teaches the Father, son and holy spirit are one substance 

 

 

 

 

[Josh Khinder]

Substantia  homoousios

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, and Greek  Homoousios   Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that  to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

 

Homoousios Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

Homoousios Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

No kidding!?

Well, goodnight!   I have to clean up this sticky God off of my floor and then pray to substance before bed.

P.S.  We don’t believe that there is only 1 “being” in the Godhead, neither did Penrose.

Edited June 16, 2018 by pogi