Ahab Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 25 minutes ago, snowflake said: Very interesting take....haven't heard explained that way before..... I appreciate that. There is also another way to explain it, a much more biblical explanation. God is spirit and exists outside our time-space domain....in other words this world we live in is a shadow of "reality" or a shadow of the "spirit realm". Like you said above, Jesus can appear out of nowhere, as well as angels,.......they have the ability to enter and leave our time-space domain at will. The lds Heavenly Father is stuck in the same length X width X height X time domain as all other humans......with superior technology he can perform miracles. The God of the Bible exists outside of this domain without a body of flesh and bone. We believe there are other dimensions of reality, as well, but walking on water or through walls in this dimension still requires some way to manipulate the elements in this dimension. Our Lord didn't switch to another dimension when he did those things. I use the word dimension, but you may think of what I call a dimension as another universe outside or within the universe we can see. Perhaps you have heard that the spirit world, where we go when we die, is right here on this same planet we are on now. And there is a story in the Old Testament about someone seeing a divine army of soldiers, when God allowed him to see them. And then there is the story of the brother of Jared seeing our Lord's finger and then all of him when he was touching some stones, indicating that our Lord was there even before the brother of Jared was able to see him. Other dimensions to reality, and God is able to move through more than this one.
The Nehor Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Howconvenieent. I have 10 M $ in sealed portion of BoA, they'll give me after I'm dead. They left that out of my copy. 1
Josh Khinder Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 7 hours ago, JAHS said: Right the three Gods are One God just like the Utah basketball team called "Jazz" are one but made up of several members each one called a Jazz. The word "God" can be either singular or plural. Consider the words of Jesus as he said: "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh" Of course Jesus did not mean that a man and woman would actually become one person when they are married, but that they would dedicate themselves to each other, work together and be one in purpose and spirit. As Jesus was praying to the Father He said: "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (John 17:11, 21-22) Here, Christ prayed for his disciples and other converts, that they should be preserved in unity, "that they all may be one" as the Father and the Son are one. Christ did not want His followers to lose their individuality and become one single person. He wanted them to be one in purpose as He and the Father and Holy Ghost are one. Not one Catholic or Protestant denomination teaches God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the same person
Ahab Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: Not one Catholic or Protestant denomination teaches God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the same person They're not very clear on their message about what God, as a kind of being, is, though. "without body, parts, or passions"... All of them/us actually have all 3 of those things. They still have a lot to learn to know as much as we know and try to teach others about God.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, snowflake said: Very interesting take....haven't heard explained that way before..... I appreciate that. There is also another way to explain it, a much more biblical explanation. God is spirit and exists outside our time-space domain....in other words this world we live in is a shadow of "reality" or a shadow of the "spirit realm". Like you said above, Jesus can appear out of nowhere, as well as angels,.......they have the ability to enter and leave our time-space domain at will. The lds Heavenly Father is stuck in the same length X width X height X time domain as all other humans......with superior technology he can perform miracles. The God of the Bible exists outside of this domain without a body of flesh and bone. Try reading the Bible with a view to describing God, and he doesn't fit your description at all. Instead he is anthropomorphic, has a body, as does his angels. LDS theology is consonant with biblical theology. Normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology ignores Holy Writ in favor of an abstract God unworthy of the name. Non-Mormon biblical scholars agree with the Mormons on this matter: For example, Ernst Benz has said of the Mormon doctrine of apotheosis: Quote Regardless of how one feels about the doctrine of progressive deification, one thing is certain: Joseph Smith's anthropology of man is closer to the concept of man in the primitive church than that of the proponents of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin, who considered the idea of such a fundamental and corporeal relationship between God and man as the quintessential heresy. "Der Mensch als Imago Dei," in Eranos Jahrbuch 40 (1971), and also published in Urbild und Abbild: Der Mensch und die mythische Welt: gesammelte Eranos-Beitrage (Leiden: Brill, 1974), 326, English version in Benz, "Imagio Dei: Man in the Image of God," in T. Madsen, ed., Reflections on Mormonism (Provo, 1978), 201-219. Jewish scholar Yohanan Muffs insists that "[T]he biblical God is anthropomorphic. Whoever strips God of his personal quality distorts the true meaning of Scripture." Muffs, Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):23; cf. Ronald Hendel, "Aniconism and Anthropomorphism in Ancient Israel," in K. van der Toorn, ed., The Image and the Book (Leuven: Peeters, 1997), 205-228; Benjamin Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Cambridge University Press, 2009); Esther J. Hamori, "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (de Gruyter, 2008), reviewed in RBL, Feb 2012, online at http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=8190 . The evangelical world is frightened by the text of the Bible, and refuses to allow it to speak for itself. Tradition has great power over them. Edited June 13, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Ahab said: Technically speaking, there are things we still refer to as miracles. The word refers to things God is able to do which we can't explain. The definition of "miracle" is that it abrogates natural law. That is a contradiction in terms and non-factual. Like saying that the sun rises in the morning, it is false. 5 hours ago, Ahab said: .............. I'll suppose you realize that more than just faith and the power of the Holy Spirit is involved. That is only the power that makes those kinds of things possible, but something else is still required to bring about those results. To walk on water the water molecules must support the weight of the person walking on the water instead of just moving out of the way to let that person pass around them, for example. And the opposite must happen to be able to walk through a wall. Faith and the power of the Holy Spirit are what cause those kinds of things to happen. When a rocket lifts off at Cape Kennedy, it does not in any way violate the law of gravity. In fact it operates in concert with the law of gravity, which is a natural law. When Jesus walks on water, the molecules of water are not supporting him and do not need to. Instead he is doing the same thing he and angels do when they move through space, which means that he does not require support. When a seer stone performs a translation, it is merely doing what any solid state tech device (smart phone) can do nowadays. The fact that such technical devices did not exist in Joseph Smith's technological world makes it seem like a "miracle" -- a word which bespeaks our ignorance. Without tuning into the "force" (faith & the Holy Spirit), such things are impossible. 5 hours ago, Ahab said: The fact that our Lord and his angels can do that doesn't mean everyone will be able to do that. Some will lack faith and some will not have the same power of the Holy Spirit which God and his angels have. But, yes, it will be possible for some of us to do that, later. I assumed you understood that we were speaking of celestialized bodies.
Ahab Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: The definition of "miracle" is that it abrogates natural law. That is a contradiction in terms and non-factual. Like saying that the sun rises in the morning, it is false. Oh, okay. You were using a different definition of miracle than the one I was using. That's okay. I agree that your understanding makes sense and is true according to that definition. Quote When a rocket lifts off at Cape Kennedy, it does not in any way violate the law of gravity. In fact it operates in concert with the law of gravity, which is a natural law. I agree. Quote When Jesus walks on water, the molecules of water are not supporting him and do not need to. Instead he is doing the same thing he and angels do when they move through space, which means that he does not require support. Oh, okay. You have a different idea that I do about him walking on water. I believe he actually walked on the water with the water supporting his weight. Otherwise I think the text should say he floated over or above the waters. Quote When a seer stone performs a translation, it is merely doing what any solid state tech device (smart phone) can do nowadays. The fact that such technical devices did not exist in Joseph Smith's technological world makes it seem like a "miracle" -- a word which bespeaks our ignorance. Without tuning into the "force" (faith & the Holy Spirit), such things are impossible. Cool. I've always likened the stone those of the celestial world will receive to a device with a liquid crystal display. I'd like a better version than the one I have now, though. Quote I assumed you understood that we were speaking of celestialized bodies. Oh, okay. Yes, I believe all with "celestialized bodies" will be able to do those things you mentioned. I was just making a point that not everyone will, at least not all at the same time. Maybe those of telestial or terrestrial glory/intelligence may learn how to do it later though if and as they become more intelligent, though. Edited June 13, 2018 by Ahab 1
Josh Khinder Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 9 hours ago, Ahab said: They're not very clear on their message about what God, as a kind of being, is, though. "without body, parts, or passions"... All of them/us actually have all 3 of those things. They still have a lot to learn to know as much as we know and try to teach others about God. Not one 4th or 5th century Creed teaches God is "without body, parts, or passions" We know Jesus is in heaven with a resurrected body and he has parts and passions 😃
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 16 hours ago, snowflake said: If God has a body of flesh and bones (as Jesus) and lives in the natural universe, how do they travel to Kolob? He must obey all the physical rules of the universe....and what about all those miracles, if Jesus is subject to the natural law how did he walk on water? We have an incomplete understanding of natural law. If you took a radio back in time to the 16th century people would think it was witchcraft, yet in no way is it Supernatural.
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 15 hours ago, snowflake said: Because all scholars don't agree with your take....ex-nihilo can be supported by the text itself too. I absolutely agree that we should allow the text to speak for itself. Heb 11:3 [3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Col 1 [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: John 1:3 [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Why would I need a "scholar" to explain these verses to me?.......we just disagree Robert. Just substitute the word "organized" for "create" and the conflict disappears. "Trump created Trump tower" but he certainly did not do it ex nihilo. It's just semantics around one word.
Calm Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 17 hours ago, snowflake said: If God has a body of flesh and bones (as Jesus) and lives in the natural universe, how do they travel to Kolob? Wormholes 1
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) Error Edited June 14, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 48 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: Not one 4th or 5th century Creed teaches God is "without body, parts, or passions" We know Jesus is in heaven with a resurrected body and he has parts and passions 😃 ""Below is the statement of God found in the Westminster Confession of Faith: I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."" http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Creeds.html
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/11/2018 at 11:39 PM, Josh Khinder said: Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28. You keep quoting Penrose. Like all general authorities and Prophets he was fallible. General conference talks are not canon.
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) Duplicate Edited June 14, 2018 by mfbukowski
snowflake Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Just substitute the word "organized" for "create" and the conflict disappears. "Trump created Trump tower" but he certainly did not do it ex nihilo. It's just semantics around one word. I'm letting the text speak for itself. Where in scripture do you find support for matter being eternal and Jesus "organizing" it?
JAHS Posted June 14, 2018 Author Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm letting the text speak for itself. Where in scripture do you find support for matter being eternal and Jesus "organizing" it? I am repeating myself, but here's one clue regarding organizing. One of the meanings of the Hebrew verb 'baurau', translated as "create" in the Old Testament, is "to organize, form, or fashion"; the same way a carpenter might organize together some already existing pieces of wood to make a table. In the Old Testament the same Hebrew word used in Genesis for create('baurau'), is used in the following scripture: "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." (Isa 43:15) Obviously God did not create Israel out of nothing. He organized it out of a league of tribes bound together by a covenant with Him (Josh. 24) 2
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm letting the text speak for itself. Where in scripture do you find support for matter being eternal and Jesus "organizing" it? Why take it literally? 1. Gen 1. Darkness on waters. Waters already exist. 2. John 1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Others have already answered this. You seem to be going in circles.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ""Below is the statement of God found in the Westminster Confession of Faith: I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."" http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Creeds.html Hay! I was gonna say that! 1
Josh Khinder Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ""Below is the statement of God found in the Westminster Confession of Faith: I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."" http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Creeds.html I said 4th and 5th century Creed not a 17th century confession that is wrong 😃
Ahab Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: We know Jesus is in heaven with a resurrected body and he has parts and passions 😃 I'm glad the "we" you associate with know about that. Now if all of Christendom would just come to realize that our Father in heaven is like Jesus in that way then we would be that much closer to transforming all Christians into latter-day saints!
pogi Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 4 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm letting the text speak for itself. Where in scripture do you find support for matter being eternal and Jesus "organizing" it? The Book of Abraham. Like it or not, it is scripture.
pogi Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You keep quoting Penrose. For as long as Josh has been posting here, he has only quoted Penrose. He has this obsession with him. It doesn't matter what any other prophets have said, Penrose is the only official authority who can speak for the church in Josh's mind.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 4 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm letting the text speak for itself. Where in scripture do you find support for matter being eternal and Jesus "organizing" it? The text doesn't say God created things from out of nowhere or nothing. You are adding that to the text when the text doesn't say that. And notice that the text says God created what he made, or what was made, indicating that there were some things that were not made but were eternal in nature.
mfbukowski Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: I said 4th and 5th century Creed not a 17th century confession that is wrong 😃 Nicene creed then. "Consubstantial". There is no such thing as substance. 2 hours ago, pogi said: For as long as Josh has been posting here, he has only quoted Penrose. He has this obsession with him. It doesn't matter what any other prophets have said, Penrose is the only official authority who can speak for the church in Josh's mind. I don't know why we keep feeding the troll, I do it myself. I'm about done though. I had never even heard of Penrose until he found the name some where in some book from the 1920s. Edited June 14, 2018 by mfbukowski
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