rpn Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 So why don't you write him and give him the evidence and ask how he reconciles it, and counsel him to be more accurate in his speaking. 1
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 hours ago, DBMormon said: The main example I want addressed is the following Elder Holland in a Regional meeting claims that the Church is growing in such a rate that it is creating Double Digit NEW Stake creation "every week of our lives". his quote is The Problem is that the Church every year tells us the number of stakes in the Church at year end of the previous year. Elder Holland made this claim in April 2016 And from 2015 through 2017 the church consistently averaged around 1.6 new stakes per week. It is not even double digits each month. Subtract the previous years # of stakes by the following years total and you get the number of additional stakes in the Church from the previous year. RESOURCES: - 2015 LDS membership report - 2016 LDS membership report - 2017 LDS membership report - The Youtube video of his claim - response from a blogger trying to reconcile - The owner of this blog is trying to reconcile the claim and as you will see relies on anectdotal data as he struggles to have any real source for the claim further showing how much of a stretch the claim seems to be to reconcile - Data exploration on this issue I grant one possibility is that the Church closes 8.5 stakes for every 10 it creates but that also makes Elder Holland's imposition of the magnitude of the growth of the Church deceptive and dishonest. This example above is the one I want to see addressed here But I also want to establish that I see a pattern of dishonesty coming from Elder Holland and happy to take comments on these as well. I agree that a few of these have wiggle room to one degree or another but the for a few it feels to me to be deceptive behavior unless one is simply dead set on making excuses for him. ============================================================================== 1.) Elder Holland claims to hold the very copy of the book of Mormon that Bethsheba, Hyrum Smith wife, had in her possession from which Hyrum Smith the prophets brother read to her and had turned the corner of the page down from where he read. The problem is that the copy Elder Holland holds up in his hand at General conference is distinctly different from the copy in the Church History department claimed to be the same book. I have heard argument that several family members had copies with corners turned down and hence both books could be the very copy with the corner turned down. I would love historical evidence of such and not just a claim. RESOURCES: - in depth run down of the issue - Safety for the Soul conference Talk - http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/prophets/jeffreyrholland/ 2.) Elder Holland when asked about the Church's contribution to Prop 8 says that the Church did not give "One Red Cent" to the fight against Same Sex Marriage in California. Problem is it gave a reported amount of almost $200,000. Some want to debate over whether it was cash or in kind donations but to battle over rhetoric seems to be a sly way to find a loophole when someone seems to be asking about the Church's direct involvement and donations and contributions. The question becomes one of what is a person asking and are we being deceptive in how we answer them. RESOURCES: - https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8 - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/mormongate----the-churchs_b_163016.html - http://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/lgbtq/proposition-8/ - https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html - https://www.dailydot.com/irl/mormon-church-gay-marriage-prop-8/ 3.) Elder Holland tells a faith promoting story about a missionary who out on his mission is led by the spirit to his older brother who had severed his relationship with his family years earlier. Elder Holland had told this story for years and other General Authorities before him had shared it. The problem is the story was a false faith promoting narrative. Each telling contained different contradicting details and too far fetched to believe of a story-line. Many including myself called BS before it was retracted. Soon after the Deseret News picked up on the story, the far fetched details began to be questioned by Mormons and critics alike who sensed this tale was too big to hold water. Hence Elder Holland through the Deseret News and Church PR quickly distanced himself from the story. But even his side of how he came to learn the story was inaccurate is problematic and left many details void that would help his side of the story hold up. RESOURCES: - Cache of Original Story - https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685840/Elder-Holland-withdraws-Church-News-missionary-story.html - http://kuer.org/post/mormon-apostle-withdraws-embellished-story#stream/0 4.) Elder Holland when asked directly whether Mitt Romney would have made penalty oaths in the temple answers NO. Problem, such is a flat untruth. When called on it he stammers and stutters in an effort to regain balance in the conversation. RESOURCES: - Youtube Clip showing the lie - https://www.cityweekly.net/BuzzBlog/archives/2012/06/05/bbc-interview-with-lds-leader-earns-controversy - https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/7c2tuq/did_holland_lie_semantic_analysis_of_jeffrey_r/ - Jonathon Streeter's dissection of this event You know they still haven't found who the second shooter was when Kennedy was assassinated. Much more interesting conspiracy theory. 2
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, rpn said: So why don't you write him and give him the evidence and ask how he reconciles it, and counsel him to be more accurate in his speaking. We’ve been asked to not write to the apostles with questions, haven’t we? I thought we were to direct any questions to our local leaders.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Danzo said: You know they still haven't found who the second shooter was when Kennedy was assassinated. Much more interesting conspiracy theory. I don’t see any reason to label this a conspiracy theory. What did DB state in that post that isn’t factual? Edited June 9, 2018 by JulieM 1
bluebell Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don’t see any reason to label this a conspiracy theory. What did DB state in that post that isn’t factual? Danzo might be responding to DB's claim that he 'sees a pattern of dishonesty from Elder Holland.'
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: Danzo might be responding to DB's claim that he 'sees a pattern of dishonesty from Elder Holland.' How about the Book of Mormon he held during his talk "Safety for the Soul" during general conference. I'd read, don't remember where, that the Book of Mormon wasn't the actual one as he said. Have you heard this? If it isn't then maybe it's a faith promoting story. I can't imagine anyone not telling Elder Holland that it wasn't the actual BoM, or telling him that it was. Wouldn't/shouldn't he have made sure before making that kind of statement? Reminds me a little bit of Elder Paul H. Dunn's faith promoting stories back in the 70's/80's.
JAHS Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 hours ago, DBMormon said: 4.) Elder Holland when asked directly whether Mitt Romney would have made penalty oaths in the temple answers NO. Holland said speaking of the present condition "we do not have penalties in the temple". Which is true. Then the person asking the question said "you used to" and Holland agreed "We used to". In the original answer Holland was referring to what is done in the temple now. There are also some obvious cuts in the conversation where it looks like things were removed for the final video. What else was said that they cut out? 3
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: How about the Book of Mormon he held during his talk "Safety for the Soul" during general conference. I'd read, don't remember where, that the Book of Mormon wasn't the actual one as he said. Have you heard this? If it isn't then maybe it's a faith promoting story. I can't imagine anyone not telling Elder Holland that it wasn't the actual BoM, or telling him that it was. Wouldn't/shouldn't he have made sure before making that kind of statement? Reminds me a little bit of Elder Paul H. Dunn's faith promoting stories back in the 70's/80's. Oh the Horror of it! Everyone hide the Children! Run for the Hills!
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don’t see any reason to label this a conspiracy theory. What did DB state in that post that isn’t factual? It is a conspiracy! I tell you it is! Elder Holland might have held the 100+ year old book up! Elder Holland might not understand how in kind donation account works! (Lots of CPA's have trouble with that one.) Elder Holland might have got the versions of the endowment mixed up! Elder Holland corrected himself when he found out events in a story were incorrect (How irresponsible of him) The church has been found out. Elder Holland is really . . . A Human Being! (Shocking, I know) 2
Popular Post JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: Danzo might be responding to DB's claim that he 'sees a pattern of dishonesty from Elder Holland.' Ok, thanks. I guess all he listed could be interpreted that way. Elder Holland has probably learned to fact check and realizes how his every word is going to be overly analyzed. We all make mistakes, even Apostles! Let’s cut him some slack is how I feel. 5
rpn Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 27 minutes ago, JulieM said: We’ve been asked to not write to the apostles with questions, haven’t we? I thought we were to direct any questions to our local leaders. Yes, but he's not asking the kind of question that they meant when they said that, is he? He's not even talking about a church question. (More importantly, I was speaking both tongue in cheek and because if the OP is serious, that is the only way to do it --- trashtalking an apostle on line isn't very honorable in comparison.) 1
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 Just now, rpn said: Yes, but he's not asking the kind of question that they meant when they said that, is he? He's not even talking about a church question. (More importantly, I was speaking both tongue in cheek and because if the OP is serious, that is the only way to do it --- trashtalking an apostle on line isn't very honorable in comparison.) I think it might have been good if Elder Holland had clarified and corrected what he said. It was inaccurate. Of course he’s under no obligation to do so.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Danzo said: Oh the Horror of it! Everyone hide the Children! Run for the Hills! You’re reactions here are not helpful. How about Elder Holland was wrong and didn’t fact check? He repeated a story that wasn’t completely true. He’s human and hopefully has learned to be more accurate and more thorough. 1
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, JAHS said: Holland said speaking of the present condition "we do not have penalties in the temple". He didn’t answer the question truthfully. Romney did make penalty oaths and he should have told the truth and been honest that back then members made these oaths but they are no longer taken or required. That’s the truth.
JAHS Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 hours ago, DBMormon said: 1.) Elder Holland claims to hold the very copy of the book of Mormon that Bethsheba, Hyrum Smith wife, had in her possession from which Hyrum Smith the prophets brother read to her and had turned the corner of the page down from where he read. The problem is that the copy Elder Holland holds up in his hand at General conference is distinctly different from the copy in the Church History department claimed to be the same book. I have heard argument that several family members had copies with corners turned down and hence both books could be the very copy with the corner turned down. I would love historical evidence of such and not just a claim. RESOURCES: The site you link to only makes accusations with no proof that it is not the real book. Where is a photo of the actual book? Some of the links on the page used as their proof don't work. In a Deseret News article it explains this event of him using the actual book: "When Elder Holland wanted to use the book in his General Conference address, he asked church historians how he should handle the aging text. Because gloves can make hands less nimble, sometimes leading to accidental tears, Elder Holland was simply told to make sure his hands were clean, said Richard E. Turley Jr., assistant church historian and recorder." https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705335296/A-chain-of-testimony-1841-copy-of-Book-of-Mormon-stays-preserved.html 1
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: You’re reactions here are not helpful. How about Elder Holland was wrong and didn’t fact check? He repeated a story that wasn’t completely true. He’s human and hopefully has learned to be more accurate and more thorough. How about we just not judge people, especially over petty things that don't make any difference in real life. I don't anyone here on this board could withstand a scrutiny of their lives and find that everything they have said is 100% accurate. 2
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, JulieM said: He didn’t answer the question truthfully. Romney did make penalty oaths and he should have told the truth and been honest that back then members made these oaths but they are no longer taken or required. That’s the truth. Maybe he should not do interviews and be given a weeks worth of time to have his answers fact checked. Better yet maybe he should only give evasive non answers to make sure no one ever accuses him of saying anything.
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JAHS said: The site you link to only makes accusations with no proof that it is not the real book. Where is a photo of the actual book? Some of the links on the page used as their proof don't work. In a Deseret News article it explains this event of him using the actual book: "When Elder Holland wanted to use the book in his General Conference address, he asked church historians how he should handle the aging text. Because gloves can make hands less nimble, sometimes leading to accidental tears, Elder Holland was simply told to make sure his hands were clean, said Richard E. Turley Jr., assistant church historian and recorder." https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705335296/A-chain-of-testimony-1841-copy-of-Book-of-Mormon-stays-preserved.html it doesn't matter, the strategy is to throw accusations around so sow seeds of doubt. If this accusation doesn't work, another will be found. Edited June 9, 2018 by Danzo 1
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Danzo said: it doesn't matter the strategy is to throw accusations around so sow seeds of doubt. If this accusation doesn't work, another will be found. I read that it wasn't the actual book, and in my post mentioned not being sure about if it was true or not.
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Danzo said: How about we just not judge people, especially over petty things that don't make any difference in real life. I don't anyone here on this board could withstand a scrutiny of their lives and find that everything they have said is 100% accurate. Oh, I agree with you. I think it’s just best to own up to what he said and that he was wrong or misspoke. He’s human and not infallible. Apostles make mistakes too! Edited June 9, 2018 by JulieM
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Danzo said: Maybe he should not do interviews and be given a weeks worth of time to have his answers fact checked. Possibly. That interview was not his best, but I certainly wouldn’t want to be in his shoes. It’s like the new first presidency’s press conference that didn’t go well. Say what you want, but I wouldn’t want to have to do that either! It can’t be easy. But he should tell the truth about the oaths unless he’s embarrassed that they used to be taken when Romney went through for his endowment. That’s too easy for critics to prove wrong and call him a liar for not being truthful. Edited June 9, 2018 by JulieM 1
Amulek Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JulieM said: Have you actually watched Elder Holland speaking? Yup. Quote Here’s a clip (it’s short). Thanks. I've already seen it. It was linked in the original post. Quote Watch and give your impression. The portion being scrutinized has Elder Holland reciting some statistics from memory (no notes) which includes references to the number of stakes that were created in two or three recent meetings, and he says that these double-digit numbers are typical every week. Quote He seems to really believe he’s being correct here. I believe that he believes that he is correct. And, there may even be some technical sense in which he is actually correct - if, for example, as was suggested in the OP, he is just remembering the number of stakes created and not thinking of the stakes being closed. But, I honestly don't have a problem if he was just plain wrong on the numbers. I've heard general authorities, including apostles, be mistaken about facts before. It's nothing earth shattering. I remember teaching a gospel doctrine class one time and I mistakenly confused the temple in Jerusalem with the Dome of the Rock, apparently for the entire lesson. Nobody said a single thing during class, but my brother snickered about it to me afterwards and I couldn't believe that that was what I had actually said. It was terribly embarrassing. When I'm 76 and speaking for hours on end, week after week, and am trying to relay information off the top of my head, I hope that I am able to do so without having a pack of whinny anti-mormons pouring over everything I say - looking for even the most innocent of mistakes and then imputing the most abhorrent motives rather than the most obvious one (i.e., being human). Edited June 9, 2018 by Amulek 3
bluebell Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 45 minutes ago, Tacenda said: How about the Book of Mormon he held during his talk "Safety for the Soul" during general conference. I'd read, don't remember where, that the Book of Mormon wasn't the actual one as he said. Have you heard this? If it isn't then maybe it's a faith promoting story. I can't imagine anyone not telling Elder Holland that it wasn't the actual BoM, or telling him that it was. Wouldn't/shouldn't he have made sure before making that kind of statement? Reminds me a little bit of Elder Paul H. Dunn's faith promoting stories back in the 70's/80's. DB covers this in his OP.
Danzo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I read that it wasn't the actual book, and in my post mentioned not being sure about if it was true or not. How does it even matter?
JulieM Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Danzo said: How does it even matter? It matters to tell the truth. We ask that of our youth and of all members if they desire to remain worthy. I don’t know if the book was what he said it was or if he knew it was the wrong one or was just mistaken maybe. But truth does matter. 1
Recommended Posts