bdouglas Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Wait, when did Bill Reel leave Mormonism? I think he left when he began to imagine himself a kind of prophet in reverse, a bold seeker of truth, destined to expose his former faith.
Calm Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, JAHS said: To me I'm not sure it was even implicitly meant. It was just a strong way to emphasize the seriousness of the promises made. I don't know of anyone who actually thought they would ever have to give up their life if they were being forced to reveal something. I wouldn't be surprised if there were those who took it literally and believed if the Church could legally do something like that, it would be done, but I suspect most just saw it as a holdover from more primitive times stressing how seriously we should be taking our covenants . There are claims out there that there were early on blood atonement actions taken against apostates, but I don't recall any possible occasions similar to the actual movements, so if anyone was informed about them in details I doubt they would have believed it was in direct response to a violation of temple covenants , but I can understand if there were those who were too uncomfortable or even afraid to ask who worried about it. Hopefully most saw it as symbolic, but it was a very specific physical movement, so I can understand if believed it meant a specific physical punishment and not something meant as a reminder of importance like other temple things. 1
bdouglas Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, california boy said: Is the flip side also true? You aren't qualified to determine the truthfulness of the claims of Mormonism unless you are educated and have a PHD? I have a sister who has never been in a college classroom, but her testimony and in some ways her understanding of the Gospel is far greater than mine. But if one is going to undertake to evaluate church history, or the truth claims of the BOA, or does 1 Nephi 1-15 correspond to Jerusalem of 600 B.C., etc.———if one sets out to do this sort of thing, then yes, having some education does help. And, if I'm going to read essays or books dealing with such matters, I'm certainly not going to choose to read someone like the high school educated Jeremy Runnells, or Bill Reel, or any other ex-Mormon polemicist with zero qualifications other than that he has read a lot and he was in the church for half his life. Edited June 9, 2018 by bdouglas 2
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 12 minutes ago, JulieM said: Yes. Do you? Nope. He was following his heart, presumably. Good for him. One must always follow one's conscience to avoid blind obedience to cults etc Why- are you in favor of blind obedience? If you don't believe in the church, one has a God given responsibility to follow your conscience and leave. This church is not about Utah culture- it is about a body of belief. If you don't believe it, what is there for you?? How many people have you personally gone after who have left the church, and why have you done it- or are you just recommending it for others?
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Calm said: I wouldn't be surprised if there were those who took it literally and believed if the Church could legally do something like that, it would be done, but I suspect most just saw it as a holdover from more primitive times stressing how seriously we should be taking our covenants . There are claims out there that there were early on blood atonement actions taken against apostates, but I don't recall any possible occasions similar to the actual movements, so if anyone was informed about them in details I doubt they would have believed it was in direct response to a violation of temple covenants , but I can understand if there were those who were too uncomfortable or even afraid to ask who worried about it. Hopefully most saw it as symbolic, but it was a very specific physical movement, so I can understand if believed it meant a specific physical punishment and not something meant as a reminder of importance like other temple things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement Blood atonement as taught above was not to be used as a way to punish, but as a way for the sinner to make restitution for his sins. One hearsay account was given by John D. Lee, who was killed for his involvement in the Mountain Meadows massacre (see below). Lee stated in his memoirs that he had heard of only one person who had properly received death by blood atonement - by willingly atoning for the crime: Rosmos Anderson was a Danish man who had come to Utah...He had married a widow lady...and she had a daughter that was fully grown at the time of the reformation... At one of the meetings during the reformation Anderson and his step-daughter confessed that they had committed adultery, believing when they did so that Brigham Young would allow them to marry when he learned the facts. Their confession being full, they were rebaptized and received into full membership. They were then placed under covenant that if they again committed adultery, Anderson should suffer death. Soon after this a charge was laid against Anderson before the Council, accusing him of adultery with his step-daughter...the Council voted that Anderson must die for violating his covenants. Klingensmith went to Anderson and notified him that the orders were that he must die by having his throat cut, so that the running of his blood would atone for his sins. Anderson, being a firm believer in the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon Church, made no objections, but asked for half a day to prepare for death. His request was granted. His wife was ordered to prepare a suit of clean clothing, in which to have her husband buried, and was informed that he was to be killed for his sins, she being directed to tell those who should enquire after her husband that he had gone to California. Klingensmith, James Haslem, Daniel McFarland and John M. Higbee dug a grave in the field near Cedar City, and that night, about 12 o'clock, went to Anderson's house and ordered him to make ready to obey the Council. Anderson got up, dressed himself, bid his family good-bye, and without a word of remonstrance accompanied those that he believed were carrying out the will of the "Almighty God." They went to the place where the grave was prepared; Anderson knelt upon the side of the grave and prayed. Klingensmith and his company then cut Anderson's throat from ear to ear and held him so that his blood ran into the grave. As soon as he was dead they dressed him in his clean clothes, threw him into the grave and buried him. They then carried his bloody clothing back to his family, and gave them to his wife to wash, when she was again instructed to say that her husband was in California .... The killing of Anderson was then considered a religious duty and a just act.[39] Lee refused to be killed in the same manner for his conviction, requesting instead that he be executed by firing squad, rejecting the notion that he needed to atone for the Mountain Meadows massacre.
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bdouglas said: I have a sister who has never been in a college classroom, but her testimony and in some ways her understanding of the Gospel is far greater than mine. But if one is going to undertake to evaluate church history, or the truth claims of the BOA, or does 1 Nephi 1-15 correspond to Jerusalem of 600 B.C., etc.———if one sets out to do this sort of thing, then yes, having some education does help. And, if I'm going to read essays or books dealing with such matters, I'm certainly not going to choose to read someone like the high school educated Jeremy Runnells, or Bill Reel, or any other ex-Mormon polemicist with zero qualifications other than that he has read a lot and he was in the church for half his life. Sounds like your sister is completely unqualified to judge the accuracy of Joseph Smiths first vision claim. What could she possibly know. She has no degree. Steve Jobs also had no business working in high tech. He clearly was unqualified. Joseph Smith had no business commenting on religion. He clearly had no degree. Want me to go on? Edited June 9, 2018 by california boy 3
bdouglas Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, california boy said: Sounds like your sister is completely unqualified to judge the accuracy of Joseph Smiths first vision claim. What could she possibly know. She has no degree. There are different kind of knowing, aren't there? My mother and my sister are very similar. They lacked formal educations, but they had finely tuned bullsh--- detectors and a great deal of commonsense. My mother experienced miracles regularly. She prayed, and miracles happened. She loved the BOM and read it daily. She loved the Brethren (as did my father). You don't have to have a Ph.D in History (or Egyptology or Linguistics, etc.) to know the Gospel is true and that JS was telling the truth about his "marvilus experiences", but it helps if you are going to write an essay dealing with some technical aspect of the Gospel or history. Edited June 9, 2018 by bdouglas
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, bdouglas said: There are different kind of knowing, aren't there? My mother and my sister are very similar. They lacked formal educations, but they had finely tuned bullsh--- detectors and a great deal of commonsense. My mother experienced miracles regularly. She prayed, and miracles happened. She loved the BOM and read it daily. She loved the Brethren (as did my father). You don't have to have a Ph.D in History (or Egyptology or Linguistics, etc.) to know the Gospel is true and that JS was telling the truth about his "marvilus experiences", but it helps if you are going to write an essay dealing with some technical aspect of the Gospel or history. So you don't have to have a degree to know the claims of Mormonism are true. But you do have to have a degree to point out anything that you might not believe is true? 3
Atheist Mormon Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) On 6/8/2018 at 6:03 PM, Duncan said: 3) he probably told the story as he heard it related, he found out it was untrue and retracted it, he moved and so should you I don't think so, sorry...When you are that high up you have to get your facts straight every time. One thing I can't stand is misinformation. it doesn't help nobody. Edited June 9, 2018 by Atheist Mormon misspelling
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