Temple Stat Info Removed At Request Of Legal Dept. Why?

[stemelbow]

It sounds like the Church is re-tightening it's control.   I think the very high level stats the Church allowed to be available were ok for a while.  Now perhaps they will try to cut back bit by bit.  That could hurt, in the long run, one would think.  

[daz2]

I am not sure where those sites got information about the formation, dissolution, and the like of church units.  For whatever reason, the Church prefers to keep that information closely held, just like it keeps closely held information about many other things, like finances, membership activity, and the like. 

[Marginal Gains]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The church has been tightening down lately on people using their info. In all the sessions of Stake Conference I attended over the weekend there was a specific announcement in every meeting not to record or transcribe anything said by the General or Area Authorities. Pretty sure that is probably going to happen at all conferences going forward.

What’s the problem?

[Jeanne]

45 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

What’s the problem?

Yeah..what IS the problem??  Just bring all missionaries home if a sort of silence to members and potential members cannot converse or find out anything about the one true church...is open and loving...with nothing to hide.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

What’s the problem?

People are passing on inaccurate information and claiming it is from “the General Authorities”.

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Yeah..what IS the problem??  Just bring all missionaries home if a sort of silence to members and potential members cannot converse or find out anything about the one true church...is open and loving...with nothing to hide.

I prefer to hide the words of our members eager to exaggerate or even lie about what a General Authority said with no fear of contradiction. Of course they are the ones who will ignore this counsel anyways. Sigh.....

Or, to paraphrase Joseph Smith, the reason we do not get more revelations about the mysteries of God is that too many people cannot keep their fat mouths shut and share them with everyone before God wishes it.

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

What’s the problem?

I think with the numbers are not showing growth.  In fact they are heading in the other direction.  IMO the church would rather have this kept quiet.  To do this, they need to control the message, and in this case it means they will stop reporting this data.

[Marginal Gains]

On 10/04/2018 at 5:16 AM, sunstoned said:

I think with the numbers are not showing growth.  In fact they are heading in the other direction.  IMO the church would rather have this kept quiet.  To do this, they need to control the message, and in this case it means they will stop reporting this data.

But surely a Church that values transparency (now) as the leaders have stated, wouldn’t hide problematic information from members? The leaders have learnt that lesson, right?

[Marginal Gains]

On 10/04/2018 at 3:37 AM, The Nehor said:

People are passing on inaccurate information and claiming it is from “the General Authorities”.

I prefer to hide the words of our members eager to exaggerate or even lie about what a General Authority said with no fear of contradiction. Of course they are the ones who will ignore this counsel anyways. Sigh.....

Or, to paraphrase Joseph Smith, the reason we do not get more revelations about the mysteries of God is that too many people cannot keep their fat mouths shut and share them with everyone before God wishes it.

What was the LDS Temples site passing on that was “inaccurate”?

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

What was the LDS Temples site passing on that was “inaccurate”?

I was not talking about that site when I made that post.

[hope_for_things]

On 4/8/2018 at 9:06 AM, CA Steve said:

This is interesting. I wonder why this information was removed at the request of the legal department?

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

 

Anyone know or even have a guess?

I hope this isn't a trend towards less transparency.  I know there have been some discussions recently online criticizing the lack of church growth and some statements from leaders who are promoting aggressive growth happening where the statistics just don't back that up.  

I'm reminded that the legal department is going to protect the church's interests, and sometimes that will include protecting statements of leaders that aren't supported by facts.  I hate to be so cynical sometimes, but I wouldn't be surprised if the stats were taken down to try and deflect criticism of misstatements by leaders.  

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

But surely a Church that values transparency (now) as the leaders have stated, wouldn’t hide problematic information from members? The leaders have learnt that lesson, right?

I don't see any evidence that the Church truly values transparency.  It values growth and financial stability and good public perception which helps it to achieve those goals.  I'm speaking of the institutional values, not necessarily the values of individuals leaders or members.  Institutional values can often conflict with the values of individuals.  

Edited April 11, 2018 by hope_for_things

[cinepro]

 

10 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

But surely a Church that values transparency (now) as the leaders have stated, wouldn’t hide problematic information from members? The leaders have learnt that lesson, right?

To build on what hft said, "transparency" isn't just sharing the good stuff.  That's easy and everyone wants to do that.

The real test is what you do when the numbers (or history, or actions etc.) are bad.  That's when you know how much someone values "transparency."

Using that as the test, would anyone argue the the Church values "transparency"?

Just looking at the numbers, I strongly suspect that the recent shift from announcing the numbers at conference to publishing them online is a step towards not sharing the numbers at all.  Within 10 years, I predict that the numbers won't be shared online either.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

To build on what hft said, "transparency" isn't just sharing the good stuff.  That's easy and everyone wants to do that.

The real test is what you do when the numbers (or history, or actions etc.) are bad.  That's when you know how much someone values "transparency."

Using that as the test, would anyone argue the the Church values "transparency"?

Just looking at the numbers, I strongly suspect that the recent shift from announcing the numbers at conference to publishing them online is a step towards not sharing the numbers at all.  Within 10 years, I predict that the numbers won't be shared online either.

My prediction is it comes back next year. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/9/2018 at 10:16 PM, sunstoned said:

I think with the numbers are not showing growth.  In fact they are heading in the other direction.  IMO the church would rather have this kept quiet.  To do this, they need to control the message, and in this case it means they will stop reporting this data.

What do you mean the numbers are not showing growth? The growth rate might have diminished, but if the totals are greater than a year ago, that is still growth, no? Or are you claiming that the totals are lower this year than last year?

Please explain.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

What do you mean the numbers are not showing growth? The growth rate might have diminished, but if they totals are greater than a year ago, that is still growth, no? Or are you claiming that the totals have diminished?

I think there are plenty of factors to consider here.  if say less people consider themselves Mormon today than did last year, well the actually growth in membership doesn't mean growth at all.  If say, the number of people who remain on the record, aren't alive and haven't reached 110, but are still lost to the Church exceeds the increase of the number in the membership numbers, then there'd be no growth.  Even if today there are less active members then there were a year ago, well, we'd have no growth again.

But, i'm not sure what sunstoned was going for.  I still think there is growth--just a slowing growth trend over the past few years.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think there are plenty of factors to consider here.  if say less people consider themselves Mormon today than did last year, well the actually growth in membership doesn't mean growth at all.  If say, the number of people who remain on the record, aren't alive and haven't reached 110, but are still lost to the Church exceeds the increase of the number in the membership numbers, then there'd be no growth.  Even if today there are less active members then there were a year ago, well, we'd have no growth again.

 

In theory, that makes sense. But I don't believe that's what's happening. We have Elder Cook saying that, by demonstrably measurable indicators, the Church has never been stronger (meaning among those who are already members).

 

Quote

But, i'm not sure what sunstoned was going for.  I still think there is growth--just a slowing growth trend over the past few years.

That's my understanding as well. Which is why I asked sunstoned to explain his comment.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What do you mean the numbers are not showing growth? The growth rate might have diminished, but if the totals are greater than a year ago, that is still growth, no? Or are you claiming that the totals are lower this year than last year?

Please explain.

Growth rates are decreasing. IIRC last year was the lowest growth rate, in convert baptism as well as new births, the church has seen in decades. But that could be an outlier...an anomaly. But this year's growth rates have weakened further. 2 years in a row is the beginning of a trend in the wrong direction. But yes, there is still growth, just not the kind to brag about.  

ETA- typically, in the business world if a corporation has a declining rate of growth, they would not declare the corporation to be "stronger than ever". This is one of the reasons Elder Cook's comments seemed so out of touch. Slowing growth hardly indicates "stronger than ever". He did not expound to describe the data he was basing his comment on so we can only assume he knew what he was talking about by making the statement that seems unsupported by the limited data we do have.

Edited April 11, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Growth rates are decreasing. IIRC last year was the lowest growth rate, in convert baptism as well as new births, the church has seen in decades. But that could be an outlier...an anomaly. But this year's growth rates have weakened further. 2 years in a row is the beginning of a trend in the wrong direction. But yes, there is still growth, just not the kind to brag about.  

Again, that was my understanding. But it's not what I understood sunstoned to say.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

ETA- typically, in the business world if a corporation has a declining rate of growth, they would not declare the corporation to be "stronger than ever". This is one of the reasons Elder Cook's comments seemed so out of touch. Slowing growth hardly indicates "stronger than ever". He did not expound to describe the data he was basing his comment on so we can only assume he knew what he was talking about by making the statement that seems unsupported by the limited data we do have.

I think you are trying to superimpose your own definition on Elder Cook's words.

He was referring not to the influx of new converts but to "demonstrably measurable indicators" of strength among those who are already members. He said:

Quote

The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic. Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, “remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.”²⁵ We reach out to everyone.

So, to put it another way, even though we may be facing greater difficulty of late in drawing new members, the indicators of strength among existing members have never been greater.

By the way, we have already been over this stuff in a now 3-year-old thread. Do you really want to hash it over again? Or can we just refer people to this thread?