Were you taught not to go to the police?

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

You don't know me, nor what is hard for me to hear. So please do not assume you know me, nor my ability to deal with reality. I am on the side of the women who was raped by John Bishop, and find it as abhorrent as anyone. It is your comments that I find offensive, and your alleged comments and actions of others, willing to name no one but GA's, whom you claim to have taught others to not report crimes. I have served in many leadership positions in my 39 years of membership. In that time, no one, no leadership book, no lesson and no conference talk have ever suggested that crimes not be reported, and to be handled "in house". In fact, as a retired police officer, I would not only have taken issue with someone being told not to report a crime, but if in my jurisdiction, I would have arrested anyone for withholding a crime, as doing so is a crime itself. So, if I had ever been told to not report a crime, I would have been required to repost anyone who did so to the proper authorities.

The only reality here, is how so many wish to pile on to serve their agendas, and your agenda of putting all men, especially those who serve in the Church on the same level as the man who raped this young missionary. So forgive me, I am not buying what you are trying to sell. But, my "troll antenna", are out and working. 

If you review my original post in response to Mr. Provoman, you will find I was making a reference to the common excuse used when fallible leaders make mistakes. They "were acting as men." That certainly doesn't include each and every man that you wish my argument to include. The hard fact remains that in certain instances like the Bishop case and others, the competing value of defending the church reputation won out.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

 

I like the idea of asking victims.  In my experience,  the courts are traumatic and heavy handed, but often there is nothing else available to make it stop or provide protection.  Counselling services and other help are just not available in the UK due to public spending cuts and a lack of caring.   It's frustrating.  Mormons at least have a bishop and family services.

I would like to see comparable stats for nonmembers and those who don't attend a church because it may be possible people report more if they have a pastor to talk to than if they don't and it therefore may be possible to use that willingness to get people to the resources they need.  It makes sense to me to use people's inclinations rather than resist them and insist on a way of help that most apparently don't want to use.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

As a very young woman from a tiny town...there would not be going to any police until after the fact...that is, you would travel for an hour to get help..call..and wait..whatever..but the first thing my mom would do in her abuse from my father..would go to yell in the streets by our car.  The bishop lived up the street..my uncle on a corner ...and the whole darn town would be involved..(btw) I would hide in the house or under the car.  It just was not the thing to do...and then sometimes..it was too little..too late.  There are a lot of people who in small rural areas who will have to see a ward member first...when things calm down..not much is done.

[sheilauk]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I would like to see comparable stats for nonmembers and those who don't attend a church because it may be possible people report more if they have a pastor to talk to than if they don't and it therefore may be possible to use that willingness to get people to the resources they need.

I agree.  my anecdotal and limited experience tells me reporting is simply generally very low,  especially with sexual abuse and domestic violence.  I'd like to see a detailed study along the lines of your suggestion, the one in Hamba's country and the BYU one.

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

 

I like the idea of asking victims.  In my experience,  the courts are traumatic and heavy handed, but often there is nothing else available to make it stop or provide protection.  Counselling services and other help are just not available in the UK due to public spending cuts and a lack of caring.   It's frustrating.  Mormons at least have a bishop and family services.

We always forget that Provo doesn't represent "the church" and that women in some other cultures may see the Mormon system a Godsend because abuse is seen as unacceptable. 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

I agree.  my anecdotal and limited experience tells me reporting is simply generally very low,  especially with sexual abuse and domestic violence.  I'd like to see a detailed study along the lines of your suggestion, the one in Hamba's country and the BYU one.

Every article I have ever read has stated that reporting rates are low. I'm not sure how they would get stats for that given that it would need to be reported in some fashion to know an assault occurred. It probably is through a polling procedure, they do say that 1 in 3 or 4 women have had an incident so that comes from somewhere. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

In my experience,  the courts are traumatic and heavy handed, but often there is nothing else available to make it stop or provide protection.

One of the other important points that came out of the consultation is how many victims there are who won't talk to anyone important specifically because they fear s/he will have to report to the police. This really challenges the presumed effectiveness of mandatory reporting. I've personally experienced this. When I was serving as Young Men president, one of the boys approached me after Mutual. This was roughly our conversation:

YM: So you're one of those people who has to tell certain things to the cops, right?

HT: Yep.

YM: So what kids of things do you have to tell them?

HT: This, this, and this...

YM: Cool.

HT: So was there something you wanted to talk about?

YM: Yeah, no, not now.

[sheilauk]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

We always forget that Provo doesn't represent "the church" and that women in some other cultures may see the Mormon system a Godsend because abuse is seen as unacceptable. 

Indeed.  Sharon Eubank has recited a story about a friend who met a Ghanaian woman who told her that this was a woman's church because it taught that abuse was wrong and the men had stopped hitting their wives. No doubt individuals get it wrong at times and no doubt we can all do better, but I think we are generally trying to do our best. 

[sheilauk]

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

Every article I have ever read has stated that reporting rates are low. I'm not sure how they would get stats for that given that it would need to be reported in some fashion to know an assault occurred. It probably is through a polling procedure, they do say that 1 in 3 or 4 women have had an incident so that comes from somewhere. 

In the UK we have a regular crime survey.   A percentage are polled, as they poll prior to elections, and asked if they've experienced crime and if it has been reported. From that,  they determine the numbers who have been victims and the reporting rates as they compare the results to police statistics.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

If you review my original post in response to Mr. Provoman, you will find I was making a reference to the common excuse used when fallible leaders make mistakes. They "were acting as men." That certainly doesn't include each and every man that you wish my argument to include. The hard fact remains that in certain instances like the Bishop case and others, the competing value of defending the church reputation won out.

Who are you trying to convince? I know where I stand and what I believe, I don't need it explained to me like I were a child. I excuse no one in the Bishop case, nor have I sought to do so. So again, who are you trying to convince?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is not just embarrassment.  As Sheila mentioned fear of reprisal is huge and just being place in such a vulnerable state, loss of confidence in oneself to be able to protect oneself, and having to relive the ordeal over and over again.  They need to put distance between themselves and that experience of extreme fear, violation, disgust, and often betrayal to give themselves a sense of control again.  Many victims talk themselves into believing if they just pretend it didn't happen, life will go back to normal, they won't have to think about it.

And that is precisely the approach which will leave the fear in place.  If instead, victims would go directly to police no matter what, they would find themselves better able to find closure at some future time.  We need to emphasize that, and to provide rape-counseling services worthy of the name.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Depends on the jurisdiction and how they have learned of the abuse, Papa, from what lawyers have told me.  They can report it if learned outside a confessional. It can vary if they learn it from within.  Sounds like your state had stricter rules about reporting.

Bishops are currently required to call the hotline, I believe, (and have been for quite sometime iirc) so they can be given the appropriate legal requirements for their area as well as given advice by a professional from Family Services (rongo iirc has described what happens for him).  However, if a Bishop refuses to use a hotline, he may be released and even disciplined, but the Church can't send him to jail.

Anything that applies to a Catholic priest in law would apply to other faith's clergy or it would be a violation of church and state, I am thinking (different rules for different religions means state support of religion).

I used the Catholic Priest as an example, they are prohibited from disclosing anything revealed in the confessional. Although, my guess is that many still do so to protect others. Our Bishop's are required to do so if someone is in danger of being harmed, which is why they can face Church disciplinary action. You may be right, Georgia and Atlanta (my jurisdiction) may be different. For a time, I worked in Adult Protective Services, as children of elderly parents sometimes do unspeakable things, just for a social security check. Of course Georgia Law, I must admit is not favorably disposed toward the confession of Catholics or Mormons, since such things are almost foreign in the Baptist Faith in which I grew up. A faith that dominates the State, and it's laws. Just as Utah is dominated by the Church.     

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

He used the word "abuse" throughout his OP:

True enough, Larson.  I was focusing on his false general statement that “We are taught in the church, we don’t go to police,”  If he meant that to apply solely and only to abuse of some sort, then I stand corrected.

In addition, he said: "What the woman stated was that 'we are taught' that suggests it is an ongoing Officially taught position of the Church." 

That is nonsense.  There is no such "official" position, nor is it generally taught to Mormons.  I have never heard it taught and I am 76 years old.  Indeed, if I heard it taught, I would buttonhole the bishop who said it and correct him.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I used the Catholic Priest as an example, they are prohibited from disclosing anything revealed in the confessional. Although, my guess is that many still do so to protect others.

A Catholic priest who breaks the seal of the confessional is subject to excommunication.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

As a very young woman from a tiny town...there would not be going to any police until after the fact...that is, you would travel for an hour to get help..call..and wait..whatever..but the first thing my mom would do in her abuse from my father..would go to yell in the streets by our car.  The bishop lived up the street..my uncle on a corner ...and the whole darn town would be involved..(btw) I would hide in the house or under the car.  It just was not the thing to do...and then sometimes..it was too little..too late.  There are a lot of people who in small rural areas who will have to see a ward member first...when things calm down..not much is done.

I am so sorry you had to go through this. Thankfully the Father who raised and adopted me, was the one that they would call to come help, when an uncle got drunk and hurt family. In fact he was the middle child of nine, and all called on him when they needed help. He was as steady as a rock, it was he who also bought a house and cared for his parents. Although my life started out with a very bad father, I was to young to ever know any Father, but the one God gave me the second time around. He and his life are often the rock I stand on, when I am worried about being a good Husband, Father and Papa. So again, I am so sorry that had to see and endure such heartache. God bless you! 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A Catholic priest who breaks the seal of the confessional is subject to excommunication.

I though so, but not be sure is why I did not go into more. 

[Exiled]

27 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Who are you trying to convince? I know where I stand and what I believe, I don't need it explained to me like I were a child. I excuse no one in the Bishop case, nor have I sought to do so. So again, who are you trying to convince?

I have had personal experiences with leaders wanting to hush things up and I took issue with the defense of "if it didn't happen to me then it must not have happened in case x." This defense seems to be used when someone brings up unpleasant anecdotes that some don't want to hear and is seemingly the main defense used when people complain about being misled about history. So, to answer your question, I guess I'm adding my voice in support of the existence of cover-ups. I am a witness to them as church reputation always seems to come first.

If you don't wish to hear it, then you can always ignore it.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Exiled said:

When Poelman's brother was caught with prostitutes and subsequently released from being a Stake President and fired from Kirton McConkie, E. Packer went to the stake conference where the new pres was called and counseled the stake membership to keep things in house.  There was a pedo in my stake growing up and he was caught with some teenagers in the stake.  I was a witness, but not a victim, and the stake president counseled me personally to let the church handle it and not to say anything to anyone.  Finally, one of my friends growing up (his grandfather was a G.A.) had an incident happen to him and another friend at the old deseret gym (owned by the church).  It involved a different pedo and he was counseled not to talk about it and that E. Mark E. Peterson would personally see to it that the problem was resolved.

You and your friend Smac97 can continue to deny that this counseling never went on or doesn't happen today.  But if you continue to do so, you will only make yourselves look bad and offend many.  So, why don't you just stop with the nonsense.

I will help you out.  Just chalk it up to yet another time when men were acting as men and not the inspired leaders you admire and overly defend to the point of silliness. 

I’ll add myself to the silliness list. I have no personal knowledge of a church policy encouraging leaders to tell people not to report to the police nor of leaders saying such a thing, which I believe is what other of us sillies have said. I’m speaking as a former bishop, member of 5 bishoprics, and 3 High councils.

As a bishop, I was involved with a few spouse and child abuse incidents, but at that time there were priest/penitent laws in place that protected certain information when learned in confessional confidence, so I was not required to report; however, I did not tell the members not to report to the police. 

I previously mentioned a case where I learned about abuse of a child who was also a student at a school where I taught. As a teacher, I was required to report it to authorities, but since it was revealed in a Church setting, after consulting with two attorneys in the stake presidency, one of whom was the city attorney and with SLC, it was decided that the confession would remain sacred. I did not tell the parties not to go to the police, however. That was up to them. IIRC, I advised the wife to go to the police, but I do not recall if she did. The divorce followed quickly. 

Today, I would follow the same procedures and abide by legal and ecclesiastical advice.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[MorningStar]

I have never been taught this, but I know sometimes well-meaning people think it's being Christlike to save people from the consequences of their actions and think just giving someone a talking to will make it all better. 

[Jeanne]

37 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am so sorry you had to go through this. Thankfully the Father who raised and adopted me, was the one that they would call to come help, when an uncle got drunk and hurt family. In fact he was the middle child of nine, and all called on him when they needed help. He was as steady as a rock, it was he who also bought a house and cared for his parents. Although my life started out with a very bad father, I was to young to ever know any Father, but the one God gave me the second time around. He and his life are often the rock I stand on, when I am worried about being a good Husband, Father and Papa. So again, I am so sorry that had to see and endure such heartache. God bless you! 

Thank you Papa....it took me many painful years to forgive my Dad..I had come to realize that some of his problems were instilled in childhood issues and other things I did not understand.  Towards the end of his life, I was grateful that I had the opportunity to just talk to him as a friend...if he talked about the church and how awful I was..I would let it roll..but I held his hand as he left the world and I know that he knows that deep down..I love him...for the good things that were often forgotten.  Thank you Papa!

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

When you search abuse on lds.org, here is what a member is told to do:

https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=eng

So even though it's not actively taught to NOT contact the police, it's easy to understand why members first go to their church leader.

Yes, it is easy to understand. My experience is that the initial fear, anguish, and shock that come with the abuse territory motivate the victim or family member who discovered it first to seek spiritual comfort from a trusted religious leader or close family member. They can lay a quick foundation of support before the caca hits the fan. In the case of long term abuse, getting up the courage to come forward is also easier with someone you know and trust, ie., the bishop, RS President, stake president, family member. From there, law enforcement should get involved right away. If physical injury is imminent, all stops must be pulled to protect the abused. That means police, CPS, secret shelters, whatever it takes. In the LDS addiction recovery program, we teach that no abuse is acceptable. Victims must leave and get to a secure safe place ASAP and authorities should be contacted.

On the other hand, none of this made any difference to Susan Cox Powell and her two little boys. Her evil husband killed them in spite of all the legal and religious barriers that had been put in place.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you Papa....it took me many painful years to forgive my Dad..I had come to realize that some of his problems were instilled in childhood issues and other things I did not understand.  Towards the end of his life, I was grateful that I had the opportunity to just talk to him as a friend...if he talked about the church and how awful I was..I would let it roll..but I held his hand as he left the world and I know that he knows that deep down..I love him...for the good things that were often forgotten.  Thank you Papa!

Bless you! A very close friend.....who joined the Church when Sister Gui and I taught her as ward missionaries....had a similar experience. She was estranged from her father because of abuse, but she visited him on his deathbed and they reconciled. It was a powerful freeing experience for her. She was a very different person after that. 

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I have never been taught this, but I know sometimes well-meaning people think it's being Christlike to save people from the consequences of their actions and think just giving someone a talking to will make it all better. 

In some circles, that’s called co-dependency.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you Papa....it took me many painful years to forgive my Dad..I had come to realize that some of his problems were instilled in childhood issues and other things I did not understand.  Towards the end of his life, I was grateful that I had the opportunity to just talk to him as a friend...if he talked about the church and how awful I was..I would let it roll..but I held his hand as he left the world and I know that he knows that deep down..I love him...for the good things that were often forgotten.  Thank you Papa!

I am glad you had that (or those) moments to "talk as friends", every daughter should have that type of relationship with their Father. For it is in their Father's heart where they should dwell safety, and their Mother's heart. But we Father's are to stand at the door or the gate and protect them from the wolves, and other predators. The thing that began this thread, made me think, when my daughter went to the MTC, had something happened, she would have called me, and I would have believed her, that was our relationship. It would taken me 36 hours by car to reach her, and 36 secs to find the man who harmed her, God knows what would have happened next, oh wait, I too know what would have happened, it is called the "Laying on of Hands", being a cop, the first thing I would have done is call Provo Police, and give them first run at him. 

Sadly, this young lady was also abused at home by her step-father (if you can call such a low being a father of any kind), so she could not call home. My daughter had a daddy to call, one that she know was always on her side. I am sure that all Father's will have to give an accounting of how they treated their children, but even a more detailed accounting of how we treaded our daughters and future Mothers. 

[Jeanne]

15 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am glad you had that (or those) moments to "talk as friends", every daughter should have that type of relationship with their Father. For it is in their Father's heart where they should dwell safety, and their Mother's heart. But we Father's are to stand at the door or the gate and protect them from the wolves, and other predators. The thing that began this thread, made me think, when my daughter went to the MTC, had something happened, she would have called me, and I would have believed her, that was our relationship. It would taken me 36 hours by car to reach her, and 36 secs to find the man who harmed her, God knows what would have happened next, oh wait, I too know what would have happened, it is called the "Laying on of Hands", being a cop, the first thing I would have done is call Provo Police, and give them first run at him. 

Sadly, this young lady was also abused at home by her step-father (if you can call such a low being a father of any kind), so she could not call home. My daughter had a daddy to call, one that she know was always on her side. I am sure that all Father's will have to give an accounting of how they treated their children, but even a more detailed accounting of how we treaded our daughters and future Mothers. 

I know from the years we have corresponded...that you are a loving..forgiving and caring father.  So grateful that your stepfather was a step up...and gave you a chance to become who you are.