FormerLDS Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Number One: Members of the false way appear to be "ministers of righteousness" (2 Cor 11:15). That means they appear righteous. They read and study the Bible. They claim to love Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ! They attend church regularly, title of all they posses, obey the commandments, love their neighbors, pray, fast, etc... (Matt 7:15)Which makes any claims of false or true ministers entirely subject to personal faith beliefs, not a demonstrable fact. Number Two: While the false religion incorporates belief in Jesus Christ for salvation, in reality theirs is another Jesus, another gospel, another spirit (2 Cor 11:4) that only seems genuine. There is only one Jesus. There is not "another Jesus" in reality or in imagination. The difference is in the understanding of his traits. Number Three: The false religion requires faith in Jesus Christ plus worthy behavior for eternal life. The rejected of the savior in Matt 7:22 believed in Jesus Christ and they believed in their own worthiness and best efforts. The "goats" in Matt 25 were completely shocked to learn they hadn't been feeding, clothing, visiting, etc... Why? Because they truly convinced they were doing these things during mortality. Consider John 4:32 "I have meat to eat that ye know not of". Again, an issue of faith and interpretation. Christ required worthy behaviors. He said so repeatedly. Number Four: Their deception can be initiated by something that takes place within their heart which they mistook as a sign indicative of truth, when actually it was a lie (Is 44:20). in this way, they are turned unto fables (2 Tim 4:4) And once again, an issue of faith since this can be said about ALL religions. Why can you say what takes place in my heart is a lie but what takes place in yours is truth? There may be only one truth, (I don't believe in "what's true for me isn't necessarily true for you" nonsense). But our claims on ability to identify it have sources that are equal in validity. Number Five: False religion never GIVES anyone eternal life. Look it up! Every single religion out there is the same variation of good works that will one day result in eternal life. A false Christ can only offer a promise or the assurance of eternal life, but he does not and can not GIVE anyone eternal life. Only those who believe in the true Jesus Christ HAVE eternal life.Define "have eternal life". What does that actually mean? What is it you think you have now that Mormons and others don't? Those who are deceived are 100% convinced they have the truth and are shocked to discover they had been deceived. They don't knock on your door and say "Hi, we're the 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that Jesus Christ warned you about in Matthew chapter 7." Someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. The real question is "How do you know with certainty which side you're on?" The true answer revolves around having the true savior that gives eternal life to whomever asks. If you're not sure what it means to have eternal life, perhaps you should consider that as your starting point and indicative of which side you're actually on. All that I can say, I went to the true giver of life and asked of Him, believing upon Him alone, and He gave me eternal life and I hunger and thirst no more.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: All that I can say, I went to the true giver of life and asked of Him, believing upon Him alone, and He gave me eternal life and I hunger and thirst no more. A meaningless statement of faith if you cannot define what you were given. Edited March 21, 2018 by JLHPROF 1
jkwilliams Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 On 3/9/2018 at 11:54 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Neither do I, so I imagine that this is just another piece of crude folklore designed to smear the LDS faith. Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. 2
Gray Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 30 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. Same here - I was asked from age 12. Also asked about bestiality! I didn't know what either of those things meant.
jkwilliams Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, Gray said: Same here - I was asked from age 12. Also asked about bestiality! I didn't know what either of those things meant. Wow, I was never asked that!
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 59 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. First time I heard the word, I thought that they were saying "mastermation," and couldn't figure out what that might mean. Also reminds me of the time when I was just a kid in a doctor's office with my mother, and he asked me about "urination." I had never heard the word, and asked what that meant. My embarrassed mother said, "Oh, you know," which I did not. Even today, I still say "pee." Adults sometimes assume a great deal, and can be so hoity-toity.
FormerLDS Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: A meaningless statement of faith if you cannot define what you were given. You confuse "faith" and "belief". I choose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is enough for eternal life. I choose to believe that eternal life is a free gift that Jesus Christ offered me and I accepted through belief in His word. My "faith" is everything that I do now that I have His free gift of eternal life. Does that make sense?
Jeanne Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. My son was asked only once during his time with church and interviews...my daughter at age 12...was asked if she masterbated..she kept it to herself for a long time and finally told me..she said mom...at the time, I did not know what it was..and if I had done something wrong..The bishop was a neighbor who lived on the corner..never trusted him again and I wanted to say something to him so bad...
blueglass Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) On 3/9/2018 at 8:28 PM, bluebell said: I've got to argue with your number 4 (though i think the rest are right on). Not all of our general authorities live in mansions. My friend has one in her ward and it's a nice house but it's no mansion by any stretch of the imagination. Realtors use 8,000 ft^2 for determining if the home is a mansion or not, so I would be interested in how many general authorities live in homes this large. From the mansions I've seen they are no where near as beautiful as the mansions described by Jesus in John 14:2. We are to seek riches in Christ Ephesians 3:8. Edited March 21, 2018 by blueglass
blueglass Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 On 3/9/2018 at 2:54 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: There is no reason to doubt the existence of God. I am completely convinced God gave us the plan of salvation so we mortals can have a happy life. I am going to share five points to demonstrate that the church isn't a false religion. I feel the need to share some points because our church is constantly under attack by anti-mormon atheists Number One A false religion tells it's followers to blindly believe everything. Our religion encourages everyone to seek the truth through prayer. Number Two The followers of a false religion are not happy. We Mormons are the one of the happiest religious groups in the United States. Number Three The leaders of a false religion buy mansions and jewelry. Our religion uses millions of dollars to invite others to come unto Christ. In other words, the church uses tithing money for missionary work and to create places of worship. Number Four All the leaders of a false religion are professional and talented speakers. Our leaders are ordinary men. Number Five A false religion doesn't rely on the Holy Ghost to convert members. For our religion the Holy Ghost is everything. Our church is one of the fastest growing missionary religions in the United States because millions get converted by the power of the Holy Ghost. A false religion can't possibly convert millions with the spirit. It is obvious our church isn't some ruthless corporation taking advantage of the members. The church shows no signs of being a false religion. I personally invite anyone with doubts to pray and keep praying about the church. As John Taylor said about the poor people lost in those false religions who communed with God, "If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness, and deliver me from the light and intelligence that prevail in our day."
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: You confuse "faith" and "belief". I choose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is enough for eternal life. I choose to believe that eternal life is a free gift that Jesus Christ offered me and I accepted through belief in His word. My "faith" is everything that I do now that I have His free gift of eternal life. Does that make sense? Fine. Belief, not faith. Now define eternal life. What is this gift that you have received that Mormon's supposedly haven't? What exactly were you given?
Gray Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Wow, I was never asked that! I've heard before that the question about bestiality used to be commonly asked by bishops in rural areas. I didn't grow up in a particularly rural area, but maybe my old bishop did, and he was parroting the kinds of questions he was asked. Who knows.
jkwilliams Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gray said: I've heard before that the question about bestiality used to be commonly asked by bishops in rural areas. I didn't grow up in a particularly rural area, but maybe my old bishop did, and he was parroting the kinds of questions he was asked. Who knows. Nice to know I’m not the only one spreading crude folklore.
FormerLDS Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Fine. Belief, not faith. Now define eternal life. What is this gift that you have received that Mormon's supposedly haven't? What exactly were you given? How would you describe the beauty of a sunset to someone who had never seen before? How exactly would you explain the sound of a rushing waterfall to someone who had never heard before? Tell me, what terms would you use to describe what you see and hear? Likewise, those who do not have eternal life have eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot not hear (Mark 4:12). Listen to the words of the savior. Eternal life is at your fingertips - yours for the taking if you will choose to believe.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: How would you describe the beauty of a sunset to someone who had never seen before? How exactly would you explain the sound of a rushing waterfall to someone who had never heard before? Tell me, what terms would you use to describe what you see and hear? Likewise, those who do not have eternal life have eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot not hear (Mark 4:12). Listen to the words of the savior. Eternal life is at your fingertips - yours for the taking if you will choose to believe. Yeah, that's what I thought. You want me to believe that your religion offers something mine doesn't, that you have received a free gift that I am denied. But you cannot define it, explain it, or in any way indicate its existence. It's the gift equivalent of a God "without body, parts or passions" or "incomprehensible". "Eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot not hear" - in this case it's the emperor with no clothes. There are days I am so grateful for my testimony. Edited March 21, 2018 by JLHPROF
mfbukowski Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. I never once have been asked in 39 years. In the five years I was a bishop I never asked anyone. I was not trained to ask anyone. It is not in any manual that I know of to raise that question. In both stakes in which I have lived and served I never heard of anyone being asked about masturbation. Edited March 21, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Those who are deceived are 100% convinced they have the truth and are shocked to discover they had been deceived. They don't knock on your door and say "Hi, we're the 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that Jesus Christ warned you about in Matthew chapter 7." Someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. The real question is "How do you know with certainty which side you're on?" The true answer revolves around having the true savior that gives eternal life to whomever asks. If you're not sure what it means to have eternal life, perhaps you should consider that as your starting point and indicative of which side you're actually on. All that I can say, I went to the true giver of life and asked of Him, believing upon Him alone, and He gave me eternal life and I hunger and thirst no more. I'm trying to be charitable but apparently you are unaware that this is a completely circular argument and therefore has no credibility. One person asserts that their religion is better than the other, and the other asserts the same thing. Neener neener. My pop can beat up your pop. 2
jkwilliams Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I never once have been asked in 39 years. In the five years I was a bishop I never asked anyone. I was not trained to ask anyone. It is not in any manual that I know of to raise that question. In both stakes in which I have lived and served I never heard of anyone being asked about masturbation. That’s good to hear. I wish my experience had been the same. Nice to see you, Mark. I hope all is well. 1
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yeah, that's what I thought. You want me to believe that your religion offers something mine doesn't, that you have received a free gift that I am denied. But you cannot define it, explain it, or in any way indicate its existence. It's the gift equivalent of a God "without body, parts or passions" or "incomprehensible". "Eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot not hear" - in this case it's the emperor with no clothes. There are days I am so grateful for my testimony. What "proof" do you have that God's test of truth is a feeling in your heart? The words of Jesus Christ are all that is needed. Christ wasn't speaking of literal bread and water that would miraculously appear to those who believe whenever they get hungry or thirsty. “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” John 6:35 Nevertheless, those who have eternal life are given these things the moment they believe in Him alone.
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I'm trying to be charitable but apparently you are unaware that this is a completely circular argument and therefore has no credibility. One person asserts that their religion is better than the other, and the other asserts the same thing. Neener neener. My pop can beat up your pop. Do you honestly think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 didn't think their church was the true church? That their God was real and their church was the true church? The fact remains, there are those who have eternal life because they have the Son and there are those who do not have eternal life because they do not have the Son. Which does your church, your religion, your beliefs, your gospel, your Christ teach? How is that "circular reasoning"?
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Do you honestly think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 didn't think their church was the true church? That their God was real and their church was the true church? The fact remains, there are those who have eternal life because they have the Son and there are those who do not have eternal life because they do not have the Son. Which does your church, your religion, your beliefs, your gospel, your Christ teach? How is that "circular reasoning"? How do you know that Mormons don't "have the Son"? How do you know they aren't the ones who have eternal life, and you are? I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying here other than that you believe Mormons are wrong. Edited March 22, 2018 by jkwilliams 1
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 19 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Not to change the subject, but I was asked in every priesthood interview from age 12 until my mission (and even a few times after I got married). The first time I was asked about masturbation at age 12, I said I didn’t know what that meant. The bishop got very red in the face and then explained it to me in detail. I’m well aware this didn’t happen to everyone, but it’s annoying to have my personal experience dismissed as a crude smear. As far as the OP, I’m with you that this is likely satire. As a missionary one of the most uncomfortable things for me that I did was ask about the potential convert about masturbation when doing baptismal interviews. I hated trying to explain in a foreign language I did not speak fluently what that meant to a young man.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, CA Steve said: As a missionary one of the most uncomfortable things for me that I did was ask about the potential convert about masturbation when doing baptismal interviews. I hated trying to explain in a foreign language I did not speak fluently what that meant to a young man. I never asked that in any interview as a missionary or otherwise. Was that something you were instructed to do? We asked about things like premarital sex and abortion (we had a list of prepared questions from the mission president), but not about masturbation.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Do you honestly think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 didn't think their church was the true church? That their God was real and their church was the true church? The fact remains, there are those who have eternal life because they have the Son and there are those who do not have eternal life because they do not have the Son. Which does your church, your religion, your beliefs, your gospel, your Christ teach? How is that "circular reasoning"? I am LDS Do you honestly think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 didn't think their church was the true church? That their God was real and their church was the true church? The fact remains, there are those who have eternal life because they have the Son and there are those who do not have eternal life because they do not have the Son. Which does your church, your religion, your beliefs, your gospel, your Christ teach? It is circular reasoning because you are presuming YOU have the only true church while others do as well and there is no knowable definable standard to prove either of us wrong. I completely agree with your statement that "my church is true" according to MY interpretation- so we are at net zero, wasting time saying "Yes it is" and "No it's not" I find it incredible that you do not see that.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, CA Steve said: As a missionary one of the most uncomfortable things for me that I did was ask about the potential convert about masturbation when doing baptismal interviews. I hated trying to explain in a foreign language I did not speak fluently what that meant to a young man. Where does it show that that is a required question?
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