jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, mfbukowski said: Where does it show that that is a required question? That's why I asked if he was instructed to ask that question in his mission. Knowing CA Steve, I doubt he would have come up with that on his own, particularly given his discomfort in bringing it up.
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: How do you know that Mormons don't "have the Son"? How do you know they aren't the ones who have eternal life, and you are? I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying here other than that you believe Mormons are wrong. LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality. In other words, you don't have eternal life (not telling you what you personally choose to believe). Look it up some time and compare that (LDS) doctrine with the words of Jesus Christ and you'll soon see the disparity (i.e. John 6:47, 54, etc.) My point is, in order for "God to be real and the church true", one must have eternal life and have the Son (1 John 5:12). Therefore, having or not having eternal life should tell you which side of truth or deception you're really on...
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality. In other words, you don't have eternal life (not telling you what you personally choose to believe). Look it up some time and compare that (LDS) doctrine with the words of Jesus Christ and you'll soon see the disparity (i.e. John 6:47, 54, etc.) My point is, in order for "God to be real and the church true", one must have eternal life and have the Son (1 John 5:12). Therefore, having or not having eternal life should tell you which side of truth or deception you're really on... I just find these proof-texting quibbles over doctrine to be tedious. You read the Bible differently than do the LDS. I wouldn't expect otherwise. 3
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Where does it show that that is a required question? Lol. Just what do you mean by "it show"? Are you asking me if I can produce a piece of paper from more than 35 years ago to verify that someone somewhere in authority told missionaries they had to ask about masturbation? Here's how I know I was told to ask specifically about it. Because it was the last thing in the world that as a 19 year old boy I wanted to discuss with anyone, let alone do so in a foreign language with someone I hardly knew. I can even partially remember the Spanish phrase I had to use that would inevitalbbly lead to more questions because it was very generic. "No se debe palparse" Think about it Mark, there were/are hundreds of mission presidents at any give time, each one with complete control over their missions and what happens. How hard is it to imagine that some of those mission presidents would require that kind of question in a baptismal interview, especially in a time when Packer's infamous "To Young Men Only" pamphlet was the rage. text of "To Young Men Only."
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: That's why I asked if he was instructed to ask that question in his mission. Knowing CA Steve, I doubt he would have come up with that on his own, particularly given his discomfort in bringing it up. Gospel Principles does not mention it- it refers to DC 20:37 Quote 37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humblethemselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the nameof Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. Gospel Principles: Quote Prepare People for Baptism and Confirmation The purpose of your teaching is to help others develop faith in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. As Mormon taught, “the first fruits of repentance is baptism” (Moroni 8:25). The baptismal interview is the way established by the Church to ensure that each candidate meets the Lord’s standards for baptism and is prepared to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Through this interview, baptismal candidates fulfill the scriptural requirement that they witness before an authorized representative of the Church that they have “truly repented of all their sins” (D&C 20:37). The commitments that investigators make prepare them to make and keep the covenant of baptism. People who have kept the commitments that you invited them to make will be well prepared for the interview and for membership and activity in the Church. As you teach investigators and prepare them for baptism and confirmation, make sure that they meet the qualifications for baptism. Qualifications for Baptism Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 : Humble themselves before God. Desire to be baptized. Come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits. Repent of all their sins. Be willing to take upon them the name of Christ. Have a determination to serve Christ to the end. Manifest by their works that they have received the Spirit of Christ unto a remission of their sins. https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 minute ago, CA Steve said: "No se debe palparse" Sorry, but that just made me laugh out loud. I would imagine a lot of those people would have given you a rather puzzled look. I'm sorry you had to do that, but that is kind of hilarious.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: Gospel Principles does not mention it- it refers to DC 20:37 Gospel Principles: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng Gospel Principles doesn't mention most of the instructions we were given as missionaries. Totally irrelevant. We had a memorized door approach (called the mini-charla) that we had to give. Not only was it mandatory, but we had to report how many we gave each week. Again, I was taught in the MTC to obey with exactness, not to double-check that something is in Gospel Principles. I don't think you understand the psychology of being a missionary.
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I never asked that in any interview as a missionary or otherwise. Was that something you were instructed to do? We asked about things like premarital sex and abortion (we had a list of prepared questions from the mission president), but not about masturbation. I do not remember the specifics of how that came to be part of the interview. My guess is it was a mission thing which probably came from the mission president. I still can remember the face of a 14± year old boy when it dawned on him what exactly I was asking. We were both pretty red face by that time and I remember that I tended to hope that question, when it came up, would not lead to counter questions.
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Gospel Principles does not mention it- it refers to DC 20:37 Gospel Principles: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng You do realize you are quoting a manual from almost 30 years after the period I am talking about, right?
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality. In other words, you don't have eternal life (not telling you what you personally choose to believe). Look it up some time and compare that (LDS) doctrine with the words of Jesus Christ and you'll soon see the disparity (i.e. John 6:47, 54, etc.) My point is, in order for "God to be real and the church true", one must have eternal life and have the Son (1 John 5:12). Therefore, having or not having eternal life should tell you which side of truth or deception you're really on... Absurd semantic distinction Eternal life applies to ..... wait for it... Eternity! Yes you can be blessed to HAVE eternal life AFTER YOU DIE while you are alive, as we all are- specifically- promised ALSO temple rituals. But your whole argument is based on an odd INTERPRETATION of what was written in Greek by a human being who may or may not have had it right himself or just the ambiguity of the words may make it sound that way. It makes no sense to be alive for eternity while you are also alive here and know we all die, obviously it applies to after death. It is your interpretation- go with it, but to me it is a clear error of interpretation which makes no sense. Are there members of your church who are 200 years old? Can I meet them? If they have died then they did not have ETERNAL life did they? Semantics.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, CA Steve said: You do realize you are quoting a manual from almost 30 years after the period I am talking about, right? Ok so your point is that the church has abandoned that standard?
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Sorry, but that just made me laugh out loud. I would imagine a lot of those people would have given you a rather puzzled look. I'm sorry you had to do that, but that is kind of hilarious. Well I was 19 years old, the world was black and white, and I was sure I had the most important message in the world that everyone needed to hear, so if I had to be uncomfortable now and then, no biggie.
Spammer Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 For what it’s worth, I was a missionary in the mid-80s and conducted a few baptismal interviews. I also had to ask about masturbation and whether female investigators had had an abortion.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Gospel Principles doesn't mention most of the instructions we were given as missionaries. Totally irrelevant. We had a memorized door approach (called the mini-charla) that we had to give. Not only was it mandatory, but we had to report how many we gave each week. Again, I was taught in the MTC to obey with exactness, not to double-check that something is in Gospel Principles. I don't think you understand the psychology of being a missionary. No I don't understand the psychology of blind obedience to a mission president, you are right. I follow my conscience- in God we trust, all others pay cash. I joined the church after mission age, and if blind obedience to a mission president, abandoning what in conscience I judged to be incorrect was required, I would not have lasted long. 1
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It is circular reasoning because you are presuming YOU have the only true church while others do as well and there is no knowable definable standard to prove either of us wrong. I completely agree with your statement that "my church is true" according to MY interpretation- so we are at net zero, wasting time saying "Yes it is" and "No it's not" I find it incredible that you do not see that. What do you mean there is "no knowable definitive standard"? 1 John 5:12 plainly says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." When you think of a definitive standard of the "true church", should the members have eternal life or not? Seems like a very definitive standard to me. I find it incredible that you do not see that.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Spammer said: For what it’s worth, I was a missionary in the mid-80s and conducted a few baptismal interviews. I also had to ask about masturbation and whether female investigators had had an abortion. So only males masturbate then I guess and it's not a sin for women. But guys get away with making their girlfriends have an abortion or take the morning after pill. I get it now.
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Ok so your point is that the church has abandoned that standard? We were talking about our experiences with interviews in which church leadership ask[ed] about masturbation. Some people replied they had never heard of such a thing and others have replied that they were directly involved in such interviews on one side or the other. If you want to start a discussion about how church standards have changed over time with regards to specific questions in interviews, go ahead but the fact they may not be doing it now is irrelevant to whether or not it was happening before, isn't it?
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What do you mean there is "no knowable definitive standard"? 1 John 5:12 plainly says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." When you think of a definitive standard of the "true church", should the members have eternal life or not? Seems like a very definitive standard to me. I find it incredible that you do not see that. Obviously they are talking about life after death. We all have "life" if we are alive. Totally obvious. Clams have "life". We are not clams so I think it is talking about something else. Note the actual scripture just says "life" and you ADD to the Scripture- the word "eternal"! Now you are adding to scriptures? We have nothing else to talk about. This is a semantic argument about interpretation of ambiguous words. If you don't see that I cannot help. I wish you well. Edited March 22, 2018 by mfbukowski
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No I don't understand the psychology of blind obedience to a mission president, you are right. I follow my conscience- in God we trust, all others pay cash. I joined the church after mission age, and if blind obedience to a mission president, abandoning what in conscience I judged to be incorrect was required, I would not have lasted long. Are you suggesting that those who were asking about masturbation in baptismal mission interviews were just blindly following their mission president and that as a 19-20 year old missionary they should have known better?
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What do you mean there is "no knowable definitive standard"? 1 John 5:12 plainly says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." When you think of a definitive standard of the "true church", should the members have eternal life or not? Seems like a very definitive standard to me. I find it incredible that you do not see that. Fine. Since you can't define it, can't explain it, and can't describe it then I have it too. You have no way of proving I don't. Same for every other member of the Church. YAY...I have eternal life!
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Well I was 19 years old, the world was black and white, and I was sure I had the most important message in the world that everyone needed to hear, so if I had to be uncomfortable now and then, no biggie. Yep. I would imagine that was something passed down from your mission president. It wasn't an issue for us. But still, I'm going to be laughing about "no debe palparse" all day.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No I don't understand the psychology of blind obedience to a mission president, you are right. I follow my conscience- in God we trust, all others pay cash. I joined the church after mission age, and if blind obedience to a mission president, abandoning what in conscience I judged to be incorrect was required, I would not have lasted long. In my mission (and especially in the MTC) you likely would have been labeled a troublemaker. Follow your conscience and use your best judgment were not valued principles in my mission. Being as the armies of Helaman and obeying with exactness--that was the key.
mnn727 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) Samuel, Have you ever been a member of another Church? or attended another Church regularly for a significant period of time? You might look at things differently if you had. Many Churches have you pray for truth and answers, many members of other Churches are happy, most Churches pastors live very modestly, Many pastors are not trained public speakers but get better as they practice (just look at our GA's) and not all other Churches ministers are paid for that matter, Most Churches rely on the Holy Ghost. I suggest you go out and experience other Churches before you attempt to say things like this. Edited March 22, 2018 by mnn727 1
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Are you suggesting that those who were asking about masturbation in baptismal mission interviews were just blindly following their mission president and that as a 19-20 year old missionary they should have known better? See if you can say this out loud without laughing: "My mission president taught me to always follow my best judgment, regardless of mission rules." I can't.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, CA Steve said: We were talking about our experiences with interviews in which church leadership ask[ed] about masturbation. Some people replied they had never heard of such a thing and others have replied that they were directly involved in such interviews on one side or the other. If you want to start a discussion about how church standards have changed over time with regards to specific questions in interviews, go ahead but the fact they may not be doing it now is irrelevant to whether or not it was happening before, isn't it? No, sorry I did not want to cause a fuss. You did what you were told and will be blessed for obedience I am sure. I would not have been a Mormon in the old Mc Conkie days - I have said that before. After I got baptized I read "Mormon Doctrine" and almost left. Crazy stuff! Fortunately I went by Alma and Moroni and not McConkie. We Catholic boys are taught to follow our consciences. I was never illusioned so I could not be disillusioned Time to shut up - time is so easy to waste !
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