FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I just find these proof-texting quibbles over doctrine to be tedious. You read the Bible differently than do the LDS. I wouldn't expect otherwise. Friend I decided to just choose to believe what Jesus Christ said. The "tedious" argument doesn't match what you're actually choosing to believe. For example, consider a simple diagram of both gospels and you tell me which one is more tedious? LDS "Eternal life": Free gift of eternal life that Jesus Christ offers to anyone today:
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Are you suggesting that those who were asking about masturbation in baptismal mission interviews were just blindly following their mission president and that as a 19-20 year old missionary they should have known better? No I am not suggesting it, I am SAYING it. It clearly would not have worked out for me. I have had my own business forever as well and that is why. I do not do well with rules I cannot follow whole heartedly. I was like that at that age- was a hippie etc and a student radical Marxist so yes, I am a rebel.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: Friend I decided to just choose to believe what Jesus Christ said. The "tedious" argument doesn't match what you're actually choosing to believe. For example, consider a simple diagram of both gospels and you tell me which one is more tedious? LDS "Eternal life": Free gift of eternal life that Jesus Christ offers to anyone today: I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm actually choosing to believe. 2
mnn727 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, CA Steve said: Already answered Edited March 22, 2018 by mnn727 1
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Friend I decided to just choose to believe what Jesus Christ said. The "tedious" argument doesn't match what you're actually choosing to believe. For example, consider a simple diagram of both gospels and you tell me which one is more tedious? LDS "Eternal life": Free gift of eternal life that Jesus Christ offers to anyone today: You are phenomenal Here you show that LDS believe in Eternal Life and you say we do not believe in Eternal life and you cannot see that the difference if any is semantic. Wow. Even your own diagram shows physical death. What you have is the PROMISE of eternal life AFTER death Edited March 22, 2018 by mfbukowski
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No I am not suggesting it, I am SAYING it. It clearly would not have worked out for me. I have had my own business forever as well and that is why. I do not do well with rules I cannot follow whole heartedly. I was like that at that age- was a hippie etc and a student radical Marxist so yes, I am a rebel. The only time I consciously disregarded instruction from my mission president was the last month of my mission. We were "roving" missionaries assigned to some branches in the Amazon north of Bolivia. A letter came from the mission president that he had set a goal of 1,000 baptisms for that month (average was 300 or so a month). Our main assignment, in addition to teaching, was to try and resurrect some nearly dead branches. It seemed absurd to focus on getting as many people baptized as possible when we didn't have branches to support them. So, we made a companionship decision to ignore the letter and continue what we were doing. We figured we weren't going to get into trouble because a) we had no phone and b) what was he going to do, punish me on my last day? I had some great spiritual experiences that month, and I baptized a wonderful young couple on my last day. The joy on their faces was worth the whole two years. The mission got 960-something baptisms that month, but they were all rushed, and I doubt even 5% of them stayed with the church. I have never regretted that disobedience. But the rest of the time, I did was I was told, the best I could. Baaaaa!!! Edited March 22, 2018 by jkwilliams
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Absurd semantic distinction Eternal life applies to ..... wait for it... Eternity! Yes you can be blessed to HAVE eternal life AFTER YOU DIE while you are alive, as we all are- specifically- promised ALSO temple rituals. But your whole argument is based on an odd INTERPRETATION of what was written in Greek by a human being who may or may not have had it right himself or just the ambiguity of the words may make it sound that way. It makes no sense to be alive for eternity while you are also alive here and know we all die, obviously it applies to after death. It is your interpretation- go with it, but to me it is a clear error of interpretation which makes no sense. Are there members of your church who are 200 years old? Can I meet them? If they have died then they did not have ETERNAL life did they? Semantics. What if your doctrinal definition and concept of "eternal life" is incorrect? You're assuming that "eternal life" can only take place in eternity because ... wait for it ... that's what LDS theology wants you to believe. Consider the possibility that "eternal life" was something that you could have right now - today. Just think about the words of Jesus Christ. That's all you need.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: What if your doctrinal definition and concept of "eternal life" is incorrect? You're assuming that "eternal life" can only take place in eternity because ... wait for it ... that's what LDS theology wants you to believe. Consider the possibility that "eternal life" was something that you could have right now - today. Just think about the words of Jesus Christ. That's all you need. Has it ever occurred to you that you're interpreting the words of Jesus Christ through an Evangelical Protestant prism? 2
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You are phenomenal Here you show that LDS believe in Eternal Life and you say we do not believe in Eternal life and you cannot see that the difference if any is semantic. Wow. Even your own diagram shows physical death. What you have is the PROMISE of eternal life AFTER death The diagram demonstrates eternal life as a free gift given during mortality that results in a type of life after mortality. Those who have eternal life during mortality are passed from death unto life (John 5:24). This is more than just a promise friends.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: The diagram demonstrates eternal life as a free gift given during mortality that results in a type of life after mortality. Those who have eternal life during mortality are passed from death unto life (John 5:24). This is more than just a promise friends. Oddly enough, I think LDS call that "translation," or something.
FormerLDS Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Has it ever occurred to you that you're interpreting the words of Jesus Christ through an Evangelical Protestant prism? No, I have no clue what they believe. I've only protested LDS theology if that's what you mean.
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: No, I have no clue what they believe. I've only protested LDS theology if that's what you mean. Which you are also interpreting from a particular ideological perspective. Or are you saying that the words in the Bible can and do mean only one thing?
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Friend I decided to just choose to believe what Jesus Christ said. The "tedious" argument doesn't match what you're actually choosing to believe. For example, consider a simple diagram of both gospels and you tell me which one is more tedious? LDS "Eternal life": Free gift of eternal life that Jesus Christ offers to anyone today: And yet you are STILL incapable of defining this "eternal life" you claim you have and Church members don't. Oh, and despite what you may think, LDS theology DOES teach eternal life can be received in this life, not just in the next. D&C 131:5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. How is that any different than what Christ described? 1
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Yep. I would imagine that was something passed down from your mission president. It wasn't an issue for us. But still, I'm going to be laughing about "no debe palparse" all day. If it had been taught to start off with, that that was a standard it would be different Did you include it in the discussions as sinful or did you just get to spring it on them in the interview? Many do not even think of it as sinful
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, mfbukowski said: If it had been taught to start off with, that that was a standard it would be different Did you include it in the discussions as sinful or did you just get to spring it on them in the interview? Many do not even think of it as sinful As I said, it wasn't part of our interviews. But yes, we did cover that in the discussion about the law of chastity. I'm pretty sure the memorized discussion mentioned it, though not in particularly explicit terms.
mnn727 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Many do not even think of it as sinful I've always wonder why some people consider it a sin.....makes no sense to me. Edited March 22, 2018 by mnn727
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The diagram demonstrates eternal life as a free gift given during mortality that results in a type of life after mortality. Those who have eternal life during mortality are passed from death unto life (John 5:24). This is more than just a promise friends. As is it is for us Nice to know you are still LDS. In case you were unaware, we also accept everything in the bible. Edited March 22, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: As I said, it wasn't part of our interviews. But yes, we did cover that in the discussion about the law of chastity. I'm pretty sure the memorized discussion mentioned it, though not in particularly explicit terms. Well then you cannot expect them to know it. Clearly it was NOT explained earlier if it was uncomfortable for anyone or if anyone seemed surprised or did not understand. If you did not even know the words to explain it, how could anyone imagine that it was clear?? That's absurd!! How silly it is to spring it on them in the interview as if they had already repented of what they might not even known was a sin. Makes no sense whatsoever. That mission president should have had ZERO baptisms- no way I would have gotten baptized if someone sprung something like that on me without warning or teaching the principle first. "Oh by the way- you DO understand you are promising to give us 10% of your income forever. Sign here. Will that be a check or credit card? We can do it by automatic withdrawal if you like. "
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well then you cannot expect them to know it. Clearly it was NOT explained earlier if it was uncomfortable for anyone or if anyone seemed surprised or did not understand. If you did not even know the words to explain it, how could anyone imagine that it was clear?? That's absurd!! How silly it is to spring it on them in the interview as if they had already repented of what they might not even known was a sin. Makes no sense whatsoever. That mission president should have had ZERO baptisms- no way I would have gotten baptized if someone sprung something like that on me without warning or teaching the principle first. "Oh by the way- you DO understand you are promising to give us 10% of your income forever. Sign here. Will that be a check or credit card? We can do it by automatic withdrawal if you like. " Maybe I’m not understanding you. I don’t know what the situation in Steve’s mission was (he’s several years older than I am). In my mission, masturbation was discussed in the discussions but was not part of the pre-baptismal interview. So, there was no springing anything, nor was there any expectation that investigators understood the concept. Thus, there wasn’t much discomfort in my mission, as it wasn’t a major point of discussion. My understanding of Steve’s mission was that he was uncomfortable asking about it, as I would have been. Edited March 22, 2018 by jkwilliams
CA Steve Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Maybe I’m not understanding you. I don’t know what the situation in Steve’s mission was (he’s several years older than I am). In my mission, masturbation was discussed in the discussions but was not part of the pre-baptismal interview. So, there was no springing anything, nor was there any expectation that investigators understood the concept. Thus, there wasn’t much discomfort in my mission, as it wasn’t a major point of discussion. My understanding of Steve’s mission was that he was uncomfortable asking about it, as I would have been. It's funny how the discussion has gone from it never happening to being absurd how it did happen. Look, we send 19 (now 18) year old kids out in the world telling them to teach the gospel and convert people to Mormonism, when they have very little understanding of Mormonism to begin with and even less about the world, but they go out there just the same. So when someone tells me what I was doing back then was absurd and not very well thought out, they will get no argument from me. I was 19 years old and my mission president was pretty much a rockstar in my mind, so I did what I was told and I was proud of it then. Now, it seems ridiculous and the person I am now would not have followed those instructions, but that is all part of growing up now isn't it? I am not ashamed of how I acted. I acted just like every other missionary. But the fact remains that in our baptismal interviews on my mission, we asked about masturbation, and it is pretty clear from what others have said, like you, I wasn't only one doing the asking and many of the other's here have also expressed how they too struggled to understand just what they were being asked. So I find those instances absurd also. I love the second guessing going on here. I played quite a bit of basketball back in my day and even though I am a 6'-2" slow white guy, I am pretty sure I could have held my own back then against Michael Jordan, because like everyone else, the older I get the better I was. So when I hear people say what they woud have done at 19, I'd love to take them back and put them in front of my GA mission president (who also happened to be a member of the Quorum of the 70) and tell him they weren't going to follow his instructions. Sure....that is exactly what they would say. 2
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, CA Steve said: It's funny how the discussion has gone from it never happening to being absurd how it did happen. Look, we send 19 (now 18) year old kids out in the world telling them to teach the gospel and convert people to Mormonism, when they have very little understanding of Mormonism to begin with and even less about the world, but they go out there just the same. So when someone tells me what I was doing back then was absurd and not very well thought out, they will get no argument from me. I was 19 years old and my mission president was pretty much a rockstar in my mind, so I did what I was told and I was proud of it then. Now, it seems ridiculous and the person I am now would not have followed those instructions, but that is all part of growing up now isn't it? I am not ashamed of how I acted. I acted just like every other missionary. But the fact remains that in our baptismal interviews on my mission, we asked about masturbation, and it is pretty clear from what others have said, like you, I wasn't only one doing the asking and many of the other's here have also expressed how they too struggled to understand just what they were being asked. So I find those instances absurd also. I love the second guessing going on here. I played quite a bit of basketball back in my day and even though I am a 6'-2" slow white guy, I am pretty sure I could have held my own back then against Michael Jordan, because like everyone else, the older I get the better I was. So when I hear people say what they woud have done at 19, I'd love to take them back and put them in front of my GA mission president (who also happened to be a member of the Quorum of the 70) and tell him they weren't going to follow his instructions. Sure....that is exactly what they would say. Indeed. It’s ironic that you’re being mocked for being obedient by a member of a church that places a premium on obedience. Anyone who has served a mission understands how it works. It’s designed in some ways to train people to accept the commands of superiors. Obedience was celebrated in my mission, not something to be ashamed of. But it’s easy for someone who hasn’t had that experience to ridicule us for not developing the fortitude to think and act for ourselves. Of course, those who disdain our foolishness are right, but their criticism is hollow because, had they been with us, they most likely would have done exactly as we did.
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, CA Steve said: It's funny how the discussion has gone from it never happening to being absurd how it did happen. Look, we send 19 (now 18) year old kids out in the world telling them to teach the gospel and convert people to Mormonism, when they have very little understanding of Mormonism to begin with and even less about the world, but they go out there just the same. So when someone tells me what I was doing back then was absurd and not very well thought out, they will get no argument from me. I was 19 years old and my mission president was pretty much a rockstar in my mind, so I did what I was told and I was proud of it then. Now, it seems ridiculous and the person I am now would not have followed those instructions, but that is all part of growing up now isn't it? I am not ashamed of how I acted. I acted just like every other missionary. But the fact remains that in our baptismal interviews on my mission, we asked about masturbation, and it is pretty clear from what others have said, like you, I wasn't only one doing the asking and many of the other's here have also expressed how they too struggled to understand just what they were being asked. So I find those instances absurd also. I love the second guessing going on here. I played quite a bit of basketball back in my day and even though I am a 6'-2" slow white guy, I am pretty sure I could have held my own back then against Michael Jordan, because like everyone else, the older I get the better I was. So when I hear people say what they woud have done at 19, I'd love to take them back and put them in front of my GA mission president (who also happened to be a member of the Quorum of the 70) and tell him they weren't going to follow his instructions. Sure....that is exactly what they would say. Uh, no. You are not getting this. I was an atheist hippie at the time and a student radical. I thought Mormons were idiots. I would have had no respect for the man whatsoever. The only 70 I was interested in at that time was 70 bottles of beer on the wall. Marx taught that religion was created by man. In a sense he was totally right. It was created by the man of holiness. I had no clue at that time that Mormonism was about the exaltation of humanity. For some odd reason many still do not understand that. It should not be about cults of Personality regarding prophets and certainly not Mission presidents. Edited March 22, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The diagram demonstrates eternal life as a free gift given during mortality that results in a type of life after mortality. Those who have eternal life during mortality are passed from death unto life (John 5:24). This is more than just a promise friends. Moses 1 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Moses 1 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. You know, that word immortal is fascinating to me. It's true we pass through death, but then we live again. Aren't we technically immortal right now? Will there ever be a time when we will cease to exist? Our spirits are immortal, even if our vehicles have to break down and get an overhaul at some point. 1
jkwilliams Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Uh, no. You are not getting this. I was an atheist hippie at the time and a student radical. I thought Mormons were idiots. I would have had no respect for the man whatsoever. The only 70 I was interested in at that time was 70 bottles of beer on the wall. Marx taught that religion was created by man. In a sense he was totally right. It was created by the man of holiness. I had no clue at that time that Mormonism was about the exaltation of humanity. For some odd reason many still do not understand that. It should not be about cults of Personality regarding prophets and certainly not Mission presidents. Yes, things would be so much better if missionaries disobeyed more - said no mission president ever. 1
Recommended Posts