Scientists find massive society

[cinepro]

On 2/5/2018 at 9:04 AM, Storm Rider said:

I find these types of archeological finds interesting, but I don't favor jumping on any bandwagons that seek to either prove or disprove the veracity of the Book of Mormon.  I remain in a wait and see kind of position - there is so much we do not know about the history of these two continents and if there are skilled individuals search more and more discoveries will be made which will appear both supportive and/or unsupportive for the veracity of the Book of Mormon.  The story is still unfolding and it will be interesting, but for me it ends at "that's interesting".

If past experience has shown us anything, as a Book of Mormon supporter I would jump on this bandwagon with enthusiasm and gusto, because the wagon may not have far to go before it falls apart.

[smac97]

Daniel Peterson has some thoughts on this story.

Takeaway quote: "None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative."

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 8, 2018 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Daniel Peterson has some thoughts on this story.

Takeaway quote: "None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative."

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

If nothing else, this shows that there is much about Meso American archeology that is still undiscovered and that there were intricate civilizations in those lands that, plausibly, left no superficial evidence. All of which makes the Book of Mormon account seem more tangibly real to me, although I have long accepted it as a genuine record left by ancient peoples.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Rajah Manchou]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Takeaway quote: "None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative."

As exciting as this find is, it is also consistent with what Alexander von Humboldt, Ethan Smith, Atwater, Boudinot, Spaulding and numerous others were saying about Mesoamerica and North America in the 18th and 19th centuries. The massive cities, highways, canals, earthworks and walled fortifications of native populations were described in a number of books that were published before the Book of Mormon.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[bcuzbcuz]

On 2/8/2018 at 4:01 PM, smac97 said:

Daniel Peterson has some thoughts on this story.

Takeaway quote: "None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative."

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Consistent? I thought consistent meant "fair or accurate, done in the same way over time", or "without logical contradictions". Would you care to expand on why you agree that the BofM historical narrative is consistent with the recent finds? The time frame might be a starting point.

[bcuzbcuz]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If nothing else, this shows that there is much about Meso American archeology that is still undiscovered and that there were intricate civilizations in those lands that, plausibly, left no superficial evidence. All of which makes the Book of Mormon account seem more tangibly real to me, although I have long accepted it as a genuine record left by ancient peoples.

If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying the recent finds, actual finds, support that a culture in Meso America could have left no superficial evidence. You're going to have to run that past me one more time.

[smac97]

58 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Quote

Daniel Peterson has some thoughts on this story.

Takeaway quote: "None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative."

Yep.

Consistent? I thought consistent meant "fair or accurate, done in the same way over time", or "without logical contradictions". Would you care to expand on why you agree that the BofM historical narrative is consistent with the recent finds? The time frame might be a starting point.

Consistent: "agreeing or accordant; compatible; not self-contradictory."

"None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent {as in agreeing or accordant or compatible] with the book’s historical narrative."

Dr. Peterson provides a few examples.  Here's one:

Quote

Plainly, a great deal remains to be learned about Pre-Columbian America, and several new findings here seem relevant to the Book of Mormon.

For example, according to Mosiah 7:4 and 8:8 — not to mention my own personal experience — it’s easy to lose cities in the Mesoamerican jungle and to walk, wholly unaware, past massive structures.

And another:

Quote

Contrary to previous population estimates of around 5 million, Tulane University archaeologist Francisco Estrada-Belli says that the ancient Guatemalan lowlands may have supported 10-15 million people. “At its peak in the Maya classic period (approximately A.D. 250–900),” summarizes National Geographic, “the civilization covered an area about twice the size of medieval England, but it was far more densely populated.”

Thus, when Mormon’s father brought him southward to the capital district of Zarahemla in roughly A.D. 321-326, the 11-year-old future prophet was wide-eyed with astonishment: “The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea” (see Mormon 1:7).

And another:

Quote

In the National Geographic article, Clynes describes “highways connecting urban centers and quarries.” “Virtually all the Mayan cities,” he says, “were connected by causeways wide enough to suggest that they were heavily trafficked and used for trade and other forms of regional interaction. These highways were elevated to allow easy passage even during rainy seasons.”

Similarly, 3 Nephi 6:8 records that “there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.” (Does the verb “cast up” suggest that Nephite highways were “elevated”?)

And another:

Quote

The National Geographic account speaks of “militarization” and “the ubiquity of defensive walls, ramparts, terraces and fortresses.”

“Warfare wasn’t only happening toward the end of the civilization,” says Ithaca College archaeologist Thomas Garrison. “It was large-scale and systematic, and it endured over many years.”

For its part, the Book of Mormon is notoriously full of warfare. At Alma 49:2-8; 50:1-6; 53:1-5; and62:42-43, for instance, we read of innovative fortifications built during the first century B.C. Ultimately, the Nephites are destroyed around A.D. 385, but the fighting continues:

“The Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place,” Moroni reports somewhere between A.D. 400-421, “even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war” (see Mormon 8:7-8).

I have also appreciated Jeff Lindsay's efforts to compile evidences pertaining to The Book of Mormon.  He says: "Contrary to the claims of our critics, there are many interesting findings that make it difficult to explain away the Book of Mormon as a nineteenth-century fraud from Joseph Smith. Such evidence is not 'proof' but should encourage readers and seekers of truth to give the Book of Mormon a chance."

I also appreciate FAIR's compilation of articles pertaining to The Book of Mormon.

It looks like Jack Welch has recently published yet another contribution to scholarship about The Book of Mormon: Knowing Why: 137 Evidences That The Book of Mormon Is True

I look forward to getting it and reading it.

Getting back to the recent finds in Guatemala, it seems that there is a very long way to go.  There is far more about that area in the "Unknown" column than the "Known" column.  However, Dr. Peterson's point is that what were are discovering about that area, while not definitive, are nevertheless compatible with the narrative of The Book of Mormon.

I am not interested in looking for a "smoking gun."  I don't think we'll see it.  Rather, I am interested in exploring plausibility.  To that end, the recent finds seem to confirm that the narrative in The Book of Mormon is plausible.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying the recent finds, actual finds, support that a culture in Meso America could have left no superficial evidence. You're going to have to run that past me one more time.

That researchers would have had to use "a high-tech aerial mapping technique" to detect "tens of thousands of ... houses, buildings, defense works and pyramids" means that the evidence was not superficial.

Frankly, I thought my meaning would have been clear on its face. I don't understand your confusion. Did you even bother looking at the link?

I understand you've lived abroad for years. Have you lost some of your English proficiency? Here's the word superficial in Swedish: ytlig

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Michael Sudworth]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If nothing else, this shows that there is much about Meso American archeology that is still undiscovered and that there were intricate civilizations in those lands that, plausibly, left no superficial evidence. All of which makes the Book of Mormon account seem more tangibly real to me, although I have long accepted it as a genuine record left by ancient peoples.

These are my thoughts as well.

I personally believe that we will, one day, find direct and incontrovertible evidence that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica.  

[bcuzbcuz]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That researchers would have had to use "a high-tech aerial mapping technique" to detect "tens of thousands of ... houses, buildings, defense works and pyramids" means that the evidence was not superficial.

Frankly, I thought my meaning would have been clear on its face. I don't understand your confusion. Did you even bother looking at the link?

I understand you've lived abroad for years. Have you lost some of your English proficiency? Here's the word superficial in Swedish: ytlig

 

My English is, granted, not like it was. But I do know when an argument lacks substance. Go back and read your BoM and see the numbers involved in the final battles. Then go on line and look into the findings of the battles between the Romans and the Etruscans. Just north of Rome, the finds, that include leads used in slings, to bronze arrowheads, cover over 500 acres of finds. The digs have gone on for years.

Why are there so many finds? Because the battles were extended, over a good number of years, and , even if one can discount the victors exagerations of numbers, there were thousands of soldiers fighting against each other, maybe 3000 or more on each side. 

Thousands of soldiers, 500 acres of finds. 

Your English is undoubtedly better than mine (although I’ll posit my Swedish is better than yours). Superficial is not a word I’d use to describe the finds of significant battles. Now, your turn. Show me something other than superficial finds of the battles from the BoM.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:14 AM, JAHS said:

I actually agree with you on this, that they are taking advantage of this desire and making a bundle of money off it. 
There's nothing wrong with going on these tours if you are going to just see the sights, but if you are only going expecting to see something that is evidence for the Book of Mormon you are wasting your money.
Nobody knows for sure where it all happened.

Sons and daughters of Lehi have to eat too. I visited Copan as a missionary in CA in 1967. Our DC3 landed in a cornfield near the ruins. No other LDS in sight. Only a few locals were there as guides, but they knew and said nothing about Mormons. I did see and photograph the "Star of David" and the "elephant" on the hieroglyphic pyramid. Incredible place. Who knows what it all means?

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:57 AM, cdowis said:

It is important to note the 15 million inhabitants  --  one argument against the Book of Mormon is the large population, especially  the number of dead at the War of Extinction at the end.

Indeed. It makes So-and-so with his ten thousand more credible.

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

As exciting as this find is, it is also consistent with what Alexander von Humboldt, Ethan Smith, Atwater, Boudinot, Spaulding and numerous others were saying about Mesoamerica and North America in the 18th and 19th centuries. The massive cities, highways, canals, earthworks and walled fortifications of native populations were described in a number of books that were published before the Book of Mormon.

They were held in the Palymra town library. There are check-out cards with Joseph Smith's signature on them.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:25 AM, Michael Sudworth said:

These are my thoughts as well.

I personally believe that we will, one day, find direct and incontrovertible evidence that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica.  

That is quite possible; however, I don't think that would result in more people joining the Church. There is no substitute for a witness of the Spirit. Especially when you find out you have to pay tithing, attend three hours of meetings on Sunday,  give up all your vices, and stack hundreds of chairs and tables..

Edited February 11, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Rajah Manchou]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

They were held in the Palymra town library. There are check-out cards with Joseph Smith's signature on them.

Its quite common for someone to read a book and then tell someone else what they read. Joseph Smith was surrounded by people (Hiram for example) who were educated at universities with libraries that were full of books. A relative of Joseph Smith (who also taught Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith) was a professor of oriental languages and theology at Dartmouth, just a few miles from where the Smith family lived for years. He was also the librarian and the owner of a bookshop.

I'm more than open to the Book of Mormon being a historical document, I have faith that it is, but the "Palmyra Library" argument isn't a strong one.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Its quite common for someone to read a book and then tell someone else what they read. Joseph Smith was surrounded by people (Hiram for example) who were educated at universities with libraries that were full of books. A relative of Joseph Smith (who also taught Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith) was a professor of oriental languages and theology at Dartmouth, just a few miles from where the Smith family lived for years. He was also the librarian and the owner of a bookshop.

I'm more than open to the Book of Mormon being a historical document, I have faith that it is, but the "Palmyra Library" argument isn't a strong one.

It was said in jest. As my uncle used to say, ”If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, but we don’ t have any eggs.”

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It was said in jest. As my uncle used to say, ”If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, but we don’ t have any eggs.”

Your uncle must have been quite a character...I like his quote.  Kind of leaves me hungry though.

[bcuzbcuz]

On 2018-02-10 at 1:18 AM, Bernard Gui said:

They were held in the Palymra town library. There are check-out cards with Joseph Smith's signature on them.

Thanks. An interesting insight.

[strappinglad]

Bernard, you really must avail yourself of the emoji group.

There is a vast difference between open fields and jungle . Google earth can enlighten one if needed. Archeologists are still finding items from Biblical times in places that have been walked over for decades/centuries without noticing anything special. Tropical jungle will destroy and cover over habitations very quickly compared to the arid lands of the Bible or even the more temperate lands of the Romans.

[Stargazer]

On 2/4/2018 at 11:44 PM, Calm said:

Couldn't that be a problem of too little to work with though?  Voynich Manuscript has over 170,000 characters while the alleged Anthon (or Caractors document) has around 200 (estimate).

Well, sort of, but the Voynich characters don't seem to have any relationship to any known script, and the large number doesn't seem to have helped.  

[cdowis]

On 2/9/2018 at 7:16 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. It makes So-and-so with his ten thousand more credible.

Yeah, apologists like myself had to do a little tap dance on that one.  Fred Astair would have been proud.

No more, folks.

[Stargazer]

On 2/9/2018 at 4:15 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Sons and daughters of Lehi have to eat too. I visited Copan as a missionary in CA in 1967. Our DC3 landed in a cornfield near the ruins. No other LDS in sight. Only a few locals were there as guides, but they knew and said nothing about Mormons. I did see and photograph the "Star of David" and the "elephant" on the hieroglyphic pyramid. Incredible place. Who knows what it all means?

Not sure the Star of David means what you might assume. As far as I know, its use as a symbol for Judaism doesn't date back far enough for the Lehites to have brought it with them.

 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, sort of, but the Voynich characters don't seem to have any relationship to any known script, and the large number doesn't seem to have helped.  

This assumes it is a valid language or code.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Thanks. An interesting insight.

Ah, perhaps you didn't notice he was being facetious about the lending library?

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

This assumes it is a valid language or code.

I'd like it to be!  If not, someone went to a LOT of trouble just for a practical joke.