Does worthiness increase or decrease?

[Duncan]

I'm reading this blog posted by the Church and they have this line

"It is crucial, therefore, that we find a way to not attach our sense of worth to our behavior"

https://www.lds.org/blog/the-biggest-barrier-to-our-connection-with-god?cid=HP_TU_30-1-2018_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL232_

How can you be unworthy in the Church but have self worth? Shouldn’t those feelings help you to want to be worthy? Does that mean you can do whatever you want and still have worth? If worth isn’t attached to behaviour then why do we have church discipline even? I guess in the final sense what does worthy even mean?

[Calm]

It is somewhat confusing.

We are often taught we can find strength to do what is right by remembering who we are, children of God.

So the reverse in that sense is true...we should try to attach our behaviour to our sense of worth.

And while I don't think we should view ourselves as worthless ever and definitely not ever to let guilt or shame get in the way of talking to .God, I do think we should look at ourselves differently if all we are doing is playing video games all day when we are able to be spending at least some of that time earning money to support ourselves and our good habits, contributing to others' well being, developing talents, etc.  (I think she is making that point between guilt and shame, but pulling the quote out makes it ambiguous).

There are those who are limited in what they can do through mental, emotional, or physical health and they may be doing quite well if all they do is play video games.  Being realistic about our behaviour is good, imo, for our personal sense of worth.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

I am reading just the first line of your post..

The way I see it is that behavior can change..it is important that we realize that we can change..which is where repentance comes in..and that has nothing to do with our worth...which is our potential.

[The Nehor]

The definition of "worth" and "worthy" are not very synonomous.

worth
equivalent in value to the sum or item specified. "jewelry worth $450 was taken"
the value equivalent to that of someone or something under consideration; the level at which someone or something deserves to be valued or rated.

wor·thy
having or showing the qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specified way. "issues worthy of further consideration"

One's worth in the eyes of God does not diminish but one's worthiness can and does fluctuate.

Edited February 2, 2018 by The Nehor

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The definition of "worth" and "worthy" are not very synonomous.

worth
equivalent in value to the sum or item specified. "jewelry worth $450 was taken"
the value equivalent to that of someone or something under consideration; the level at which someone or something deserves to be valued or rated.

wor·thy
having or showing the qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specified way. "issues worthy of further consideration"

One's worth in the eyes of God does not diminish but one's worthiness can and does fluctuate.

Excellent point.

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The definition of "worth" and "worthy" are not very synonomous.

worth
equivalent in value to the sum or item specified. "jewelry worth $450 was taken"
the value equivalent to that of someone or something under consideration; the level at which someone or something deserves to be valued or rated.

wor·thy
having or showing the qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specified way. "issues worthy of further consideration"

One's worth in the eyes of God does not diminish but one's worthiness can and does fluctuate.

what would you say about how is someone is unworthy but how is there worth to be found, in their unworthiness? as in a 10 dollar bill can be dirty but it's still acceptable currency so what would be the point of cleaning it or getting a new bill? we can be dirty with stuff but what would be the point of being clean if our worth never changes?

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what would you say about how is someone is unworthy but how is there worth to be found, in their unworthiness? as in a 10 dollar bill can be dirty but it's still acceptable currency so what would be the point of cleaning it or getting a new bill? we can be dirty with stuff but what would be the point of being clean if our worth never changes?

Because your unworthiness defines you only as you are; not what you can be. It is also critical that the concept of worthiness in the LDS faith is there for protection and not to exclude. We do not want people entering into covenants or performing ordinances that will further damage them if they are not currently worthy to perform them. This is not a jealous hording of things that bless or at least it should not be. 

[carbon dioxide]

18 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what would you say about how is someone is unworthy but how is there worth to be found, in their unworthiness? as in a 10 dollar bill can be dirty but it's still acceptable currency so what would be the point of cleaning it or getting a new bill? we can be dirty with stuff but what would be the point of being clean if our worth never changes?

The value of money might be the same whether the bills are clean or dirty but when it comes to God, no unclean thing can dwell with God.  One must be made clean or pure through the atonement.  A rich parent might love all of his kids equally so they are all of equal worth to them.  The parent however might not feel inclined to give to each child equal inheritance.  If one child makes a lot of bad decisions and another child makes lots of good decisions, the parent will might give the bulk of the inheritance to the later because the parent will know the good kid will be more responsible and not waste it.

Edited February 2, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Duncan]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because your unworthiness defines you only as you are; not what you can be. It is also critical that the concept of worthiness in the LDS faith is there for protection and not to exclude. We do not want people entering into covenants or performing ordinances that will further damage them if they are not currently worthy to perform them. This is not a jealous hording of things that bless or at least it should not be. 

what would be the point of entering into a covenant if you're already worthy?

[Calm]

For the same reason you get married even if you are fully committed to each other already.

It adds new levels of interaction and dependency, loyalty...or should.

[Gray]

Maybe preparedness should take the place of the word worthiness?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

what would be the point of entering into a covenant if you're already worthy?

Making and keeping covenants is what exalts. Covenants also come with blessings attached for keeping them you do not get without the covenant. They also come with cursings for breaking them which is why you should be in a position to keep them when making them.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Maybe preparedness should take the place of the word worthiness?

An interesting idea and I kind of like it but it might sound weird when used in some circumstances such as when you are no longer prepared to enter the temple.

[snowflake]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

I'm reading this blog posted by the Church and they have this line

"It is crucial, therefore, that we find a way to not attach our sense of worth to our behavior"

https://www.lds.org/blog/the-biggest-barrier-to-our-connection-with-god?cid=HP_TU_30-1-2018_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL232_

How can you be unworthy in the Church but have self worth? Shouldn’t those feelings help you to want to be worthy? Does that mean you can do whatever you want and still have worth? If worth isn’t attached to behaviour then why do we have church discipline even? I guess in the final sense what does worthy even mean?

Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, snowflake said:

Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

All right......fine.

I will throw in the towel on the whole “keep the commandments” thing and start raping and pillaging instead.

[theplains]

On 01/02/2018 at 6:43 PM, Duncan said:

How can you be unworthy in the Church but have self worth? Shouldn’t those feelings help you to want to be worthy? Does that mean you can do whatever you want and still have worth? If worth isn’t attached to behaviour then why do we have church discipline even? I guess in the final sense what does worthy even mean?

It's a humbling experience when you consider the parable of the unworthy servant and then examine ourselves in the light
of it.  From Luke 17:7-10 (ESV)
  
"Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at
once and recline at table’?  Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I
eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’?  Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded?  So
you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was
our duty.’”

Even after someone has done 100% of what was commanded of them, yet are they still viewed as unworthy.

As Isaiah 64:6 says, "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We
all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." (ESV)

Jim

[Jeanne]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:43 PM, Duncan said:

I'm reading this blog posted by the Church and they have this line

"It is crucial, therefore, that we find a way to not attach our sense of worth to our behavior"

https://www.lds.org/blog/the-biggest-barrier-to-our-connection-with-god?cid=HP_TU_30-1-2018_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL232_

How can you be unworthy in the Church but have self worth? Shouldn’t those feelings help you to want to be worthy? Does that mean you can do whatever you want and still have worth? If worth isn’t attached to behaviour then why do we have church discipline even? I guess in the final sense what does worthy even mean?

Duncan...re-reading here...but how many people in the world have great self worth who do not even belong to your church?

Edited to add..these people with great self worth are those who have done many good things for individuals and the world..why would self   worth need to have anything to do with your church??  This means your world is small and can only include what is deemed relevant in your church...and yet, your self worth can give so much to so many.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Jeanne

[Five Solas]

In Christianity, what gives humans worth, what separates us from the rest of creation is that we are image-bearers of God (Genesis 1:26, 5:1-3, 9:6).  Imago Dei.  We are all equal in dignity and worth--and we are all equally fallen (as snowflake pointed out, Romans 3:23).  

But this doesn't hold in Mormonism.  The worthy go on to become gods themselves and thereby have greater worth than mere ministering angels, servants and the like.  Indeed, the worthy have the possibly of infinite increase, making them of infinitely more worth.  Afraid Celeste Davis hasn't thought through the implication.  That, or she's ignoring the math in favor of her own agenda.

It's really nonsensical to separate worth from worthiness in Mormonism. 

--Erik

________________________________

Have you seen Jackie?
He's an odd odd odd little fish
To fly around is his only wish

--The Dukes of Stratosphere, 1987

Edited February 3, 2018 by Five Solas
clarity

[smac97]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:43 PM, Duncan said:

I'm reading this blog posted by the Church and they have this line

"It is crucial, therefore, that we find a way to not attach our sense of worth to our behavior"

https://www.lds.org/blog/the-biggest-barrier-to-our-connection-with-god?cid=HP_TU_30-1-2018_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL232_

How can you be unworthy in the Church but have self worth? Shouldn’t those feelings help you to want to be worthy? Does that mean you can do whatever you want and still have worth? If worth isn’t attached to behaviour then why do we have church discipline even? I guess in the final sense what does worthy even mean?

I think context is important.  Clearly "guilt" and "shame" can have some role in our lives.

"Guilt" is "a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined."

"Shame" is "the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another."

These can be the natural (and, if channeled properly, appropriate) feelings which arise when a person sins.  However, it seems perhaps the more precise term that encapsulates the better parts of these concepts is "godly sorrow":

Quote

For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

(2 Cor. 7:8-11)

"Guilt" or "shame" that is synonymous with "godly sorrow" is good.

"Guilt" or "shame" that is not synonymous with "godly sorrow" is what I think the blog entry has in mind:

Quote

When we mess up, it is so easy to let our sense of worth, our sense of believing we are worthy of love and belonging, to slip as well. It is crucial, therefore, that we find a way to not attach our sense of worth to our behavior.

One idea that has really helped me in disconnecting my feelings of worth from my mistakes is understanding the difference between guilt and shame.

For most of my life, I’ve misunderstood guilt. I knew on some level I needed to feel guilt in order to bring me to repentance, but I could never seem to get the balance right. I thought true repentance meant I had to feel really bad about myself for a long time. That’s how it works, right?

Wrong. I was mistaking guilt for shame.  

Guilt = I did something bad, something not in line with my values.

Shame = I am bad.

I appreciate that the author's intent here, but I don't think ad hoc definitions like this work out very well.  "Guilt" can be good or bad.  "Shame" can be good or bad.  

"Godly sorrow" is what we should strive to achieve.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

In Christianity, what gives humans worth, what separates us from the rest of creation is that we are image-bearers of God (Genesis 1:26, 5:1-3, 9:6).  Imago Dei.  We are all equal in dignity and worth--and we are all equally fallen (as snowflake pointed out, Romans 3:23).  

But this doesn't hold in Mormonism.  The worthy go on to become gods themselves and thereby have greater worth than mere ministering angels, servants and the like.  Indeed, the worthy have the possibly of infinite increase, making them of infinitely more worth.  Afraid Celeste Davis hasn't thought through the implication.  That, or she's ignoring the math in favor of her own agenda.

It's really nonsensical to separate worth from worthiness in Mormonism. 

--Erik

________________________________

Have you seen Jackie?
He's an odd odd odd little fish
To fly around is his only wish

--The Dukes of Stratosphere, 1987

Mormonism <is> Christianity, Erik. 

Perhaps in drawing contrasts, you should phrase it as creedal Christianity vs restored Christianity. 

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Mormonism <is> Christianity, Erik. 

Perhaps in drawing contrasts, you should phrase it as creedal Christianity vs restored Christianity. 

Why would he do that since he does not believe it was restored?  Maybe "allegedly restored Christianity" would work for him.

Would you find it acceptable if he told you to phrase it as "biblical Christianity vs Mormonism"?  That doesn't exclude Mormonism from Christianity, after all, just biblical Christianity.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why would he do that since he does not believe it was restored?  Maybe "allegedly restored Christianity" would work for him.

Would you find it acceptable if he told you to phrase it as "biblical Christianity vs Mormonism"?  That doesn't exclude Mormonism from Christianity, after all, just biblical Christianity.

I wouldn't find that acceptable at all, since Latter-day Saints profess to accept the Bible as the word of God (see Articles of Faith 8).

Incidentally, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts the doctrine of Imago Dei (image of God) as well. We just interpret it differently from Erik and we don't say and write it in Latin.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wouldn't find that acceptable at all, since Latter-day Saints profess to accept the Bible as the word of God (see Articles of Faith 8).

So why would you suggest he write "restored Christianity" instead of "Mormonism" since he professes to believe in the original Christianity so there is no restoration?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wouldn't find that acceptable at all, since Latter-day Saints profess to accept the Bible as the word of God (see Articles of Faith 8).

Incidentally, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts the doctrine of Imago Dei (image of God) as well. We just interpret it differently from Erik and we don't say and write it in Latin.

That’s too bad, because Latin is an awesome language

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

That’s too bad, because Latin is an awesome language

Latin is the one language I really want to learn.  I have children's Latin learning books, Latin quote book and a Latin dictionary....but my brain just won't do languages right now.

I am hoping it is medication and if I ever get off of the one(s) screwing with my memory, I can retrain at least to learn to read.  I was always horrendous with speaking and listening, even just Spanish which is about as easy pronunciation as one can get.

Hearing or reading "conjugating verbs" puts me in a cold sweat....that chapter is as far as I get in any language textbook since I took my last Spanish course in college (didn't help that I got food poisoning the day of the final and had to do the test a day later while still shaky...not quite a phobia there).

Rambling...waiting for a wee bit of energy to put together my new bed setup, kind of have to get out of my old bed to start it, at least.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Calm