Does Missionary Service Merit Military Deferments?

[carbon dioxide]

Lets see its a choice between exercising First Amendment rights to go on a mission and do something that is meaningful or fighting a stupid war in some far off land that was completely unnecessary.  I would not have to think that long to find which one I would do.  The Vietnam war was so stupid that I think if would have shot myself in the leg to keep from going. 

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He has also made some very pleasant comments about white supremacists so I kind of wish he would stop.

I wish you’d stop with white supremecy and Donald Trump. It’s patently absurd that he supports it. 

[Darren10]

52 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Lets see its a choice between exercising First Amendment rights to go on a mission and do something that is meaningful or fighting a stupid war in some far off land that was completely unnecessary.  I would not have to think that long to find which one I would do.  The Vietnam war was so stupid that I think if would have shot myself in the leg to keep from going. 

If you were smart like John Kerry you’d do it so that you could get a Purple Heart. 

[pogi]

On 12/6/2017 at 5:02 PM, Darren10 said:

Is serving a full time mission for a church worthy of military deferments?

Just about anything is worthy of military deferments when the war is unjustified.  Why the hell should any of our young men be "dying in rice patties" for an unjust war?

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Just about anything is worthy of military deferments when the war is unjustified.  Why the hell should any of our young men be "dying in rice patties" for an unjust war?

Well, I am against rhe draft. That alone would solve lots of problems. Government corruption in offering deferments, people who really don’t want to go to war pretty much won’t, and it eliminates a lot if chaos and contention within the military. It would not have stopped Bannon attacking Romney though. 

As for Vietnam, I have a mixed opinions. It was definitely unjust to start (which was by the French)  but had we seen it through after entering into it, and not given up on it, I think in the long run we would have had a solid alley in Vietnam and the country itself would have become very prosperous, just like South Korea and Japan.  

Edited December 8, 2017 by Darren10

[Meerkat]

On 12/6/2017 at 6:07 PM, Duncan said:

I called my folks who joined the Church here in Canada in the 1960's. My dad joined in 1962 and Mumsie in 1967. They don't recall an uptick in calls for missionary service but they do recall American elders who had been in Vietnam and were amazed they did that tour and then another 2 years in missionary service, Mumsie said they had some elders who had that PTSD (which wasn't what it was called then but that's what it was) and one elder who had been a Green Beret or Red beret or something like that. Course they remember elders who got out of the war. My Mum said one elder commented he would rather "push our car in a Canadian blizzard than being in Vietnam" my Mum was like, you say that now.........

I was not a member of the Church when I was in Viet Nam, but I met some of the finest people who were.  Their love for their fellow beings was palpable.  I believe MANY Mormons served.  They would have readily laid down their lives for their friends because they were secure in Christ.

I can see young members of the Church putting the Lord first.  I know many who served missions then enlisted.  Some made a career out of the military.  I can also see young men with weak or no testimonies serving missions to get out of the draft, just as others found other wavers.  I don't judge any of them because there, but for the Grace of God, go I.  We grow.  We repent.  We change.  We become the people we ought to be over time.  

I don't know what to think of Bannon.  I probably put him in the same camp as Huckaby, an opportunist who would  ignore the fruits of our religion,  ridicule  the Lord's Church and the members who cherish our faith, for a stinking vote.   That's what he did in 2012.  I will never forget it.  He appealed to the same dark prejudice as Bannon.  When he realized he had offended some if the hardest working grass roots volunteers, he apologized.  Every time I see him, I remember his true feelings and his hypocrisy.  Bannon is not one whit behind him in my opinion.  Can they repent?  Of course.  That is between them and the Lord.

I say a mission is worth a deferment.  One missionary can generate a thousand patriots with one conversion (and the influence that follows.)  These are patriots who would lay down their lives I if need be, or live, labor and vote for virtuous causes for the rest of their lives.  That's my two cents.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Meerkat

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I was not a member of the Church when I was in Viet Nam, but I met some of the finest people who were.  Their love for their fellow beings was palpable.  I believe MANY Mormons served.  They would have readily laid down their lives for their friends because they were secure in Christ.

I can see young members of the Church putting the Lord first.  I know many who served missions then enlisted.  Some made a career out of the military.  I can also see young men with weak or no testimonies serving missions to get out of the draft, just as others found other wavers.  I don't judge any of them because there, but for the Grace of God, go I.  We grow.  We repent.  We change.  We become the people we ought to be over time.  

I don't know what to think of Bannon.  I probably put him in the same camp as Huckaby, an opportunist who would  ignore the fruits of our religion,  ridicule  the Lord's Church and the members who cherish our faith, for a stinking vote.   That's what he did in 2012.  I will never forget it.  He appealed to the same dark prejudice as Bannon.  When he realized he had offended some if the hardest working grass roots volunteers, he apologized.  Every time I see him, I remember his true feelings and his hypocrisy.  Bannon is not one whit behind him in my opinion.  Can they repent?  Of course.  That is between them and the Lord.

I say a mission is worth a deferment.  One missionary can generate a thousand patriots with one conversion (and the influence that follows.)  These are patriots who would lay down their lives I if need be, or live, labor and vote for virtuous causes for the rest of their lives.  That's my two cents.

Thank you for your service!!!! I met many LDS members who were there when I served a mission in LA, great people!!!!!! There is a man who was there in our stake, he came to Canada after the war. I've known him for years and years but didn't know he was American by birth. Anyways he gave a talk here once and said something about"being in the American Military overseas" and I figured he was too young to have been in WW2 or Korea and without thinking I asked him after if he was in "Nam" and he said "yeah, i got drafted, I could have got out of it but I didn't" I FELT SO AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you don't say "Nam" to someone who was there!!! There is another brother in our ward who was there as well but he was a radio guy or something but not in the actual fighting though. Both he and his wife came here after it as well.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Darren10 said:

I wish you’d stop with white supremecy and Donald Trump. It’s patently absurd that he supports it. 

And I wish church critics would stop bringing up the priesthood ban. However it is a real thing like Trump’s support for modern Nazis and reality has to prevail and be dealt with.

No, it is patently absurd to suggest he does not.

Edited December 8, 2017 by The Nehor

[Jeanne]

45 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Thank you for your service!!!! I met many LDS members who were there when I served a mission in LA, great people!!!!!! There is a man who was there in our stake, he came to Canada after the war. I've known him for years and years but didn't know he was American by birth. Anyways he gave a talk here once and said something about"being in the American Military overseas" and I figured he was too young to have been in WW2 or Korea and without thinking I asked him after if he was in "Nam" and he said "yeah, i got drafted, I could have got out of it but I didn't" I FELT SO AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you don't say "Nam" to someone who was there!!! There is another brother in our ward who was there as well but he was a radio guy or something but not in the actual fighting though. Both he and his wife came here after it as well.

I feel bad that as a nation...we did not treat our VietNam Vets very well at all..My oldest brother was in the Navy in the early 70's.  His job was to pick up body parts along some shores..he came home real messed up...life has not been easy for him since.

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

" I FELT SO AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you don't say "Nam" to someone who was there!!! There is another brother in our ward who was there as well but he was a radio guy or something but not in the actual fighting though. Both he and his wife came here after it as well.

Sure you do.  In all these years, it's never once occurred to me that one is more appropriate than the other.  Nam or Viet Nam, it's all the same to me.  It communicates.  I would be very surprised if your friend or contact was offended in any way.  He probably appreciated the recognition.  My buddies from over there use them interchangeably as do I.

Viet Nam was a beautiful country in many ways.  Someday I'd like to take my wife over there.

Full disclosure, I was not in the fighting.  The closest I ever got was the perimeter on guard duty.  My job was to maintain electronic test equipment inside a telephone exchange (air conditioned.) I flew back and forth between Chu Lai and Saigon for calibration.  We were right on the South China Sea and had a surf board in the company.  We were close enough to watch the fighting across the bay.  But no, I was not one of those valiant ones.  I enlisted because I wanted to avoid Viet Nam and the possibility of an early death.  I wasn't ready to go.  I didn't know Christ at the time and had a lot of fear about my future and the purpose of my life.  Viet Nam, and some or all of the people I met there, were part of the puzzle for me that came together beautifully when my wife and I met two missionaries like YOU!!!  They, and their message, transformed our lives forever.  We have no fear of death, and much joy in our lives thanks to THEIR service.  And we are still in touch with them after all these years.

One day, my family had come into town and was helping paint our home.  That day, Richard Tucker, one of our Missionaries, was in the Seattle area and drove over to our home.  We had a picnic on the back lawn, and he shared all the stories we had told the children over the years, from his point if view. Having our children in from all over the country to meet him and hear his testimony was further evidence that the Lord is mindful of me and my family. 

Elder Tucker was such a powerful missionary.  He, and Elder David Evans were the very definition of "Sons of Thunder." The walls shook with the Spirit when they walked in.  We loved them.  I actually believed that the Spirit was so strong with them, they must have baptized hundreds on their missions.  I told him my impression and asked him, excitedly, how many he had baptized.  He said "You and your wife were the only in tact family I baptized on my entire mission."

I was stunned.  From our conversion, both my brothers joined the Church and served missions.  They married in the Temple and are faithful to this day.  Between us we have 18 children.  Many served missions.  Many friends have joined.  I estimate at least hundreds, have resulted over the past 45 years. My wife and I have fifteen grandchildren, one recently married in the Seattle Temple and one on a mission. So that part of our story is just beginning.  And I lay them all at the feet of our beloved Missionaries.  So really, Missionary Duncan, my hat is off to YOU!!!

Edited December 8, 2017 by Meerkat

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Sure you do.  In all these years, it's never once occurred to me that one is more appropriate than the other.  Nam or Viet Nam, it's all the same to me.  It communicates.  I would be very surprised if your friend or contact was offended in any way.  He probably appreciated the recognition.  My buddies from over there use them interchangeably as do I.

Viet Nam was a beautiful country in many ways.  Someday I'd like to take my wife over there.

Full disclosure, I was not in the fighting.  The closest I ever got was the perimeter on guard duty.  My job was to maintain electronic test equipment inside a telephone exchange (air conditioned.) I flew back and forth between Chu Lai and Saigon for calibration.  We were right on the South China Sea and had a surf board in the company.  We were close enough to watch the fighting across the bay.  But no, I was not one of those valiant ones.  I enlisted because I wanted to avoid Viet Nam and the possibility of an early death.  I wasn't ready to go.  I didn't know Christ at the time and had a lot of fear about my future and the purpose of life.  Viet Nam, and some or all of the people I met there, were part of the puzzle for me that came together beautifully when my wife and I met two missionaries like YOU!!!  They, and their message, transformed our lives forever.  We have no fear of death, and much joy in our lives thanks to THEIR service.  And we are still in touch with them after all these years.

One day, my family had come into town and was helping paint our home.  That day, Richard Tucker, one of our Missionaries, was in the Seattle area and drove over to our home.  We had a picnic on the back lawn, and he shared all the stories we had told the children from his point if view.

He was such a powerful missionary.  He, and Elder David Evans were the very definition of "Sons of Thunder." The walls shook with the Spirit when they walked in.  We loved them.  I actually believed that the Spirit was so strong with them, they must have baptized hundreds on their missions.  I asked him, excitedly, how many he had baptized.  He said "You and your wife were the only in tact family I baptized on my entire mission."

I was stunned.  From our conversion, both my brothers joined the Church and served missions.  Between us we have 18 children.  Many served missions.  Many friends have joined.  I estimate at least hundreds, maybe a thousand have resulted over the past 45 years.  So really, Missionary, my hat is off to YOU!!!

Evenso..I thank you for your service.  I hope someday you and your wife can make the trip to a beautiful  country.  Seems like all I ever saw on TV during those years were those rice paddies..Peace!

[Meerkat]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Just about anything is worthy of military deferments when the war is unjustified.  Why the hell should any of our young men be "dying in rice patties" for an unjust war?

Life is unjust.  That's why we have wars.  We Church members usually support our own country.  I would die rather than participate in an atrocity.  Any who do will be accountable to God.  At the time I felt our government was honorable and trying to do the right things.  I think most of our leaders and our citizens were.  But I did witness some corruption over there.  That's life, isn't it? I have always been grateful for the opportunity to serve and the years spent.  I'm proud of my country and the people in it.  They are overwhelmingly good.  Coming from overseas, when you set foot on American soil, you can feel the virtue in the air.  At least that has been my experience.  I agree with you there are many valid reasons to seek a deferment.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Meerkat

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

Life is unjust.  That's why we have wars.  We Church members usually support our own country.  I would die rather than participate in an atrocity.  Any who do will be accountable to God.  At the time I felt our government was honorable and trying to do the right things.  I think most of our leaders and our citizens were.  But I did witness some corruption over there.  That's life, isn't it? I have always been grateful for the opportunity to serve and the years spent.  I'm proud of my country and the people in it.  They are overwhelmingly good.  Coming from overseas, when you set foot on American soil, you can feel the virtue in the air.  At least that has been my experience.  I agree with you there are many valid reasons to seek a deferment.

In response the the bold quote above.  Yes, and some of us church members support our country by protesting unjust wars.  Vietnam was Nixon's war, it was not America's war.  It was unjustified.  Protesting interventionism and nation building is not the same as being anti-country, on the contrary, we are speaking up in defense of our country and its young men; to uphold the principles of noninterventionsim that our nation was founded upon, and heralded by George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, James Madison, Edmund Burk, David Hume, and others, of which we have strayed from as a nation - for which we are paying for right now.

The principles I stand by are outlined in D&C 93.  

“And now a commandment I give unto you … you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house. … First set in order thy house.”

First set in order your house before meddling in the affairs of other's. 

Sometimes our own nation threatens our personal liberties and I feel the moral obligation to defend the liberties of our people and our God given rights; rights which are not granted by the government, but should instead be protected by it. 

Quote

 

"And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom - i.e. make me a slave. To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation, and reason bids me look on him as an enemy to my preservation who would take away that freedom which is the fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me thereby puts himself into a state of war with me. He that in the state of Nature would take away the freedom that belongs to any one in that state must necessarily be supposed to have a design to take away everything else, that freedom being the foundation of all the rest; as he that in the state of society would take away the freedom belonging to those of that society or commonwealth must be supposed to design to take away from them everything else, and so be looked on as in a state of war."

John Locke
Two Treatises on Government: Of the State of War
1680-1690

 

 

 

[Meerkat]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

In response the the bold quote above.  Yes, and some of us church members support our country by protesting unjust wars.  Vietnam was Nixon's war, it was not America's war.  It was unjustified.  Protesting interventionism and nation building is not the same as being anti-country, on the contrary, we are speaking up in defense of our country and its young men; to uphold the principles of noninterventionsim that our nation was founded upon, and heralded by George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, James Madison, Edmund Burk, David Hume, and others, of which we have strayed from as a nation - for which we are paying for right now.

The principles I stand by are outlined in D&C 93.  

“And now a commandment I give unto you … you shall set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house. … First set in order thy house.”

First set in order your house before meddling in the affairs of other's. 

Sometimes our own nation threatens our personal liberties and I feel the moral obligation to defend the liberties of our people and our God given rights; rights which are not granted by the government, but should instead be protected by it. 

 

 

That was a great respond Pogi.  Thank you!  I agree with your entire comment, while holding to my own.  There are times we don't know what we don't know, and act on our hopes.  However we can all sharpen our wits and be more careful, fighting when appropriate, protesting when appropriate.  I enjoyed your comment very much, as usual!

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agrete with your entire comment, while holding to my own.  There are times we don't know what we don't know, and act on our hopes.  However we can all sharpen our wits and be more careful, fighting when appropriate, protesting when appropriate.  I enjoyed your comment very much, as usual!

Thank you, and I always appreciate your perspective as well.  You are always a very level headed voice of wisdom and fairness with interesting spiritual insights and experience.

Thank you for your service!

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And I wish church critics would stop bringing up the priesthood ban. However it is a real thing like Trump’s support for modern Nazis and reality has to prevail and be dealt with.

No, it is patently absurd to suggest he does not.

The first president in our history to have a Jewish daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren does not support Nazism, nor White Supremacy. Nor are either group happy with Trump for doing what the past three presidents promised to do but never deliver: recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and ordered our embassy to start moving there.

There's also a lot of voters who never got your message. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/amp/trump-did-better-blacks-hispanics-romney-12-exit-polls-n681386

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/%3famp=1

And don't forget to make Hispanics great again: http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/08/news/economy/ivanka-trump-hispanic-unemployment-rate/index.html

Edited December 8, 2017 by Darren10

[carbon dioxide]

22 hours ago, Darren10 said:

As for Vietnam, I have a mixed opinions. It was definitely unjust to start (which was by the French)  but had we seen it through after entering into it, and not given up on it, I think in the long run we would have had a solid alley in Vietnam and the country itself would have become very prosperous, just like South Korea and Japan.  

Maybe but Vietnam is a textbook case where one does not need to go and kill a bunch of people and things work out fine.  Even though we lost the war, Vietnam is slowly turning around and becoming a friend.  We don't need to go around the world and force people to be our friends.  Just be a good example and eventually most will come around.

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Maybe but Vietnam is a textbook case where one does not need to go and kill a bunch of people and things work out fine.  Even though we lost the war, Vietnam is slowly turning around and becoming a friend.  We don't need to go around the world and force people to be our friends.  Just be a good example and eventually most will come around.

We did not enter into Vietnam to make that country our friend but to defend the French who were horrible overlords in that country. We went to defend them against the communist forces and once we get into a war we are to win it and help rebuild it on terms friendly to our ideals. It worked with Japan and South Korea. We allowed North Korea to fall, if that was for better or worse is debatable but look at our relations with them now. 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Darren10 said:

The first president in our history to have a Jewish daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren does not support Nazism, nor White Supremacy. Nor are either group happy with Trump for doing what the past three presidents promised to do but never deliver: recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and ordered our embassy to start moving there.

There's also a lot of voters who never got your message. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/amp/trump-did-better-blacks-hispanics-romney-12-exit-polls-n681386

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/%3famp=1

And don't forget to make Hispanics great again: http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/08/news/economy/ivanka-trump-hispanic-unemployment-rate/index.html

This defense has been used by many and is pathetic:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

The reason he is a white supremacist supporter is that white supremacists love him. They see him as their champion. When asked to condemn them he demurs, equivocates, or gives weak condemnations. If Trump were an innocent who despised white supremacy and white supremacists misread him in his support all he would have to do is denounce them strongly. Trump does not. He may not be a white supremacist (though I wouldn't put money on that) but he is perfectly happy to give the impression of being a white supremacist if it wins him support. This makes him a white supremacist supporter and a terrible person.

So far the decision to move the embassy has resulted in the deaths of two people, injuring of over a dozen, and lots of arrests. We are just getting started. The Palestinians will probably not come to the negotiation table with US sponsored talks anymore due to this decision. The move itself is only symbolic. I don't see the point unless the point is to piss off the entire Muslim world. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Darren10 said:

We did not enter into Vietnam to make that country our friend but to defend the French who were horrible overlords in that country. We went to defend them against the communist forces and once we get into a war we are to win it and help rebuild it on terms friendly to our ideals. It worked with Japan and South Korea. We allowed North Korea to fall, if that was for better or worse is debatable but look at our relations with them now. 

We went there because some moron intellectuals started arguing for and convinced government leaders that impoverished Vietnam was a crucial strategic territory for the Cold War and losing it would be a critical loss to the Soviet menace. They were idiots.

[Darren10]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This defense has been used by many and is pathetic:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

The reason he is a white supremacist supporter is that white supremacists love him. They see him as their champion. When asked to condemn them he demurs, equivocates, or gives weak condemnations. If Trump were an innocent who despised white supremacy and white supremacists misread him in his support all he would have to do is denounce them strongly. Trump does not. He may not be a white supremacist (though I wouldn't put money on that) but he is perfectly happy to give the impression of being a white supremacist if it wins him support. This makes him a white supremacist supporter and a terrible person.

So far the decision to move the embassy has resulted in the deaths of two people, injuring of over a dozen, and lots of arrests. We are just getting started. The Palestinians will probably not come to the negotiation table with US sponsored talks anymore due to this decision. The move itself is only symbolic. I don't see the point unless the point is to piss off the entire Muslim world. 

The “friend argument” is pathetic yet you seem to use a form of the friend argument to condemn Trump as a White Supremist supporter. What of the minority voters who voted for Trump? Are they ignorant of Trump’s white supremist privilege?

Back to your original comment, what “pleasant comments” did Trump make for White Supremists? 

And, no Palestinians will not come to the table but the table for peace has always been offered to thrm. They have always rejected it. But this is besides the point. I did not bring this issue up to debate the merits of announcing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital but to point out that it would not make many Nazis and White Supermacists happy. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Darren10

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

The “friend argument” is pathetic so you use the friend argument to condemn Trump as a White Supremist supporter? What of the minority voters who voted for Trump? Are they ignorant of Trump’s white supremist privilege? Sp, back to your original comment, what “pleasant comments” did Trump make for White Supremists? 

The friend argument is that you cannot claim to be not racist because you have a friend or family member or whatever of the race you are racist against. It is not a defense. The reverse is less dubious. If all your supporters are white supremacists then you say things white supremacists like. Or, as one comedian put it: "Nazis are like cats. If they like you it is probably because you are feeding them." Voters are idiots. Evangelicals were ignorant of the fact that Trump epitomizes the whore of Babylon and voted for him. That does not mean he is not a good representation of the whore of Babylon.

I think my personal favorite Trump racist moment was retweeting those faked videos from the far-right islamophobes in Britain showing fake Islam terror. If you are retweeting modern Nazi propaganda you are a Nazi supporter.

11 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

And, no Palestinians will not come to the table but the table for peace has always been offered to thrm. They have always rejected it. But this is besides the point. I did not bring this issue up to debate the merits of announcing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital but to point out that it would not make many Nazis and White Supermacists happy. 

White Supremacists usually despise Jews but they despise Islam even more. They would see this as neutral or possibly slightly positive if they can think it through that well (they tend to be deeply stupid). They do like the idea of Israelis and Palestinians killing each other and that is the main result of the decision so far. They are also horribly inconsistent and irrational. Bannon supposedly championed Israel while dog-whistling anti-Semitism. Basically they are idiots. One can be anti-Semitic and pro-Israel. It does not make a lot of sense. But then again we are talking about really pathetic grown men walking around giving each other Nazi salutes, chanting illogical and incoherent slogans, and some even wear ghost costumes even when it is not Halloween.

Have you seen their t-shirts? "Trump calls me American" They like him because he does not call them out for being terrible people. Kind of like those scriptures about exalting false prophets who tell you how wonderful you are while killing the ones who tell you you are a sinner and that you are bound for destruction unless you repent. So now I have Trump as the whore of Babylon and the False Prophet. If he were at all intimidating I could compare him to a dragon and get a book of Revelation hat-trick.

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The friend argument is that you cannot claim to be not racist because you have a friend or family member or whatever of the race you are racist against. It is not a defense. The reverse is less dubious. If all your supporters are white supremacists then you say things white supremacists like. Or, as one comedian put it: "Nazis are like cats. If they like you it is probably because you are feeding them." Voters are idiots. Evangelicals were ignorant of the fact that Trump epitomizes the whore of Babylon and voted for him. That does not mean he is not a good representation of the whore of Babylon.

I think my personal favorite Trump racist moment was retweeting those faked videos from the far-right islamophobes in Britain showing fake Islam terror. If you are retweeting modern Nazi propaganda you are a Nazi supporter.

White Supremacists usually despise Jews but they despise Islam even more. They would see this as neutral or possibly slightly positive if they can think it through that well (they tend to be deeply stupid). They do like the idea of Israelis and Palestinians killing each other and that is the main result of the decision so far. They are also horribly inconsistent and irrational. Bannon supposedly championed Israel while dog-whistling anti-Semitism. Basically they are idiots. One can be anti-Semitic and pro-Israel. It does not make a lot of sense. But then again we are talking about really pathetic grown men walking around giving each other Nazi salutes, chanting illogical and incoherent slogans, and some even wear ghost costumes even when it is not Halloween.

Have you seen their t-shirts? "Trump calls me American" They like him because he does not call them out for being terrible people. Kind of like those scriptures about exalting false prophets who tell you how wonderful you are while killing the ones who tell you you are a sinner and that you are bound for destruction unless you repent. So now I have Trump as the whore of Babylon and the False Prophet. If he were at all intimidating I could compare him to a dragon and get a book of Revelation hat-trick.

Correct on the friend argument. Still, you use a “form” of it to condemn Trump. Retweeting Nazi propaganda majes him a Nazi supporter. Likewise Evangelicals support a “good representation of the whore of Babylon”. I’m sure they are proud of you for thinking such. My take us that Evangelicals are far less devout to their faith today thsn in oast generationd. It’s the only main explanation I can think of as to why they’d vote for Trump. Just like rhe Catholics voting for Obama despite their priests universally condemning the Affordable Care Act’s abortofaciant obligations. They were all ready to go to jail thsn to comply with that yet the majority if Catholic voters swung for Obama. 

Your logic sould also conde,n the Church of Jesus Chirst of Latter-day Saints as saying “pleasant comments” about white supremists. Alt right blogger Ayla shouted on the rooftops that the LDS Church was neutral about white culture and thus her her racist propaganda until the LDS Church explicitly condemned white nationalism. Likewise, Trump blew a big moment and did not condemn wgite nationalism explicitly in Charlottesville. Like the LDS Church, he adjusted and added to his condemnation. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/14/white-house-response-to-charlottesville/564199001/

http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/15/we-condemn-them-mormon-church-disavows-white-supremacists-in-update-to-charlottesville-statement/

http://www.newsweek.com/mormon-church-racism-charlottesville-675327

Anyhow, how about the minority voters who voted for Trump in greater percentages than they did for Romney? Were they idiots? Do they support he whore of Babylon? Perhaps these were Evangelical minorities? Reglardless, They don’t seem to think Trump was a candidate with pleasant comments to offer white supremicists. 

“They would see this as neutral or possibly slightly positive if they can think it through that well (they tend to be deeply stupid). They do like the idea of Israelis and Palestinians killing each other and that is the main result of the decision so far.”

Wow. You got it all psychologically figured out. Cool. 

“They like him because he does not call them out for being terrible people.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/14/white-house-response-to-charlottesville/564199001/

Quote

Denouncing racism, Trump said in a prepared speech that "those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."

And say hello to Matt Lauer. Spiffy guy. (Just being silly, I don’t think you like him or in anyway not condemn his behavior but seeing him now in any curcumstance of taking a moral position is just...creepy.) 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Darren10

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Correct on the friend argument. Still, you use a “form” of it to condemn Trump. Retweeting Nazi propaganda majes him a Nazi supporter. Likewise Evangelicals support a “good representation of the whore of Babylon”. I’m sure they are proud of you for thinking such. My take us that Evangelicals are far less devout to their faith today thsn in oast generationd. It’s the only main explanation I can think of as to why they’d vote for Trump. Just like rhe Catholics voting for Obama despite their priests universally condemning the Affordable Care Act’s abortofaciant obligations. They were all ready to go to jail thsn to comply with that yet the majority if Catholic voters swung for Obama. 

Your logic sould also conde,n the Church of Jesus Chirst of Latter-day Saints as saying “pleasant comments” about white supremists. Alt right blogger Ayla shouted on the rooftops that the LDS Church was neutral about white culture and thus her her racist propaganda until the LDS Church explicitly condemned white nationalism. Likewise, Trump blew a big moment and did not condemn wgite nationalism explicitly in Charlottesville. Like the LDS Church, he adjusted and added to his condemnation. 

I don't really care much what evangelicals think of me. I shouldn't generalize too much. Many evangelicals with a conscience condemned Trump. I know a few who are disgusted by those who entered the faustian bargain to support him.

No, because the church has condemned racism and white supremacy forcefully and they are not equivocating to hold onto the support of white supremacist members.

No, he did not adjust. The church spoke out because that is what they believe and needed to be clear. There was no change. Trump equivocated, tried to blame everyone, and finally was dragging kicking and screaming and gave a half-hearted condemnation. If you have to be pressured to condemn Nazis there is something fundamentally wrong with you.