Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I had already added a word to my post, "rampant." So it's "rampant teen suicides."

I'd believe that it's a contributing factor (a teen's religious upbringing or teachings).  I'm glad he's bringing attention to this even if he's exaggerating or being extreme.  This should be examined and corrected where possible.  If he even saves one teen from committing suicide, I think it's a great cause.  However, I think he should try to be accurate to be most effective.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'd believe that it's a contributing factor (a teen's religious upbringing or teachings).  I'm glad he's bringing attention to this even if he's exagerating or being extreme.  This should be examined and corrected where possible.  If he even saves one teen from committing suicide, I think it's a great cause.

 

 

Smac has already quoted at length from a Deseret News article that explains well why it is actually harmful to recklessly accuse churches of promoting rampant teen suicide. Maybe you should ponder that more carefully.

For example, the article makes this point:

Quote

As stated in the 2016 International Handbook of Suicide Prevention, research “tend(s) to support the basic premise that religion provides protection against suicide risk.” Thus, what some dub a cause of suicide may in fact be a resource for many teens and others who struggle.

If vilifying religion causes even one teen to forsake his religious faith and thus become more vulnerable to suicide ideation, I don't think that's "a great cause."

Edited June 14, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Smac has already quoted at length from a Deseret News article that explains well why it is actually harmful to recklessly accuse churches of promoting rampant teen suicide. Maybe you should ponder that more carefully.

For example, the article makes this point:

If vilifying religion causes even one teen to forsake his religious faith and thus become more vulnerable to suicide ideation, I don't think that's "a great cause."

I agree that shouldn't happen.  But many of the youth (going by what I've seen locally) disagree with how the church leaders are dealing with this issue.  Some have seen their friends hurt over this and see the pain first hand.  So they believe what they're hearing about suicides (or even may know of one or more who have committed suicide).  It's good to shine a light on this and work on become more loving and accepting, IMO. 

I know you disagree....but I think that's a better solution than sitting on either side being hateful and blaming and pointing fingers.  There is just way too much of that going on between those who disagree.  There have simply been too many teen suicides to ignore them (I'm not saying that's happening by the leaders as I do think they are trying to help...).  I say kudos to anyone fighting for the cause to lessen that number and bring attention to it.   People are gratefully becoming much more accepting or SSM and of those who are born gay.  There have been huge strides already.

Edited June 14, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'd believe that it's a contributing factor (a teen's religious upbringing or teachings).  I'm glad he's bringing attention to this even if he's exaggerating or being extreme.  This should be examined and corrected where possible.  If he even saves one teen from committing suicide, I think it's a great cause.  However, I think he should try to be accurate to be most effective.

 

 

 

I'm not one to question another person's beliefs, and you're right that it probably is a factor. Another factor is people like Reynolds and Mamma Dragons telling teens that living according to the Gospel will make them miserable. 

Why I Believe the Mama Dragon Approach Is Ultimately Hurting Teens & Families (Despite Earnest Intentions Otherwise)

This is written by a PhD who has specialized in factors contributing to suicide and mental illness. 

[kllindley]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So they believe what they're hearing about suicides

Even if it isn't true. I don't think it helps anyone to misrepresent the actual causes of the suicides. That is why I think Reynolds work is reckless at best and possibly even malicious. He is engaging in behavior that experts agree makes the suicide epidemic worse. 

[Michael Sudworth]

46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Smac has already quoted at length from a Deseret News article that explains well why it is actually harmful to recklessly accuse churches of promoting rampant teen suicide. 

It is unsettling to see critics of the Church use such extremist rhetoric. Gay Mormons are no more likely than gay baptists, gay muslims, gay Orthodox Jews, etc. to commit suicide. The fact is, there is a severe conflict between the teachings of major religions and *acting* in such a way as to violate the Law of Chastity. There is no logical way around it. At the most fundamental level these two ideas are wholly in conflict.  One cannot hold both views. 

This conflict exists in all conservative religions. Undoubtedly believing gay Latter-day Saints experience a struggle I can't even imagine. As a heterosexual young man, things were difficult enough. Between the hormones and my extended "ugly stage", being a teenager was hard. But at least while I struggled with simply being a normal young man I had a future where I would be married. Within marriage I knew my future wife and I could act within the Lord's guidance and boundaries.

Many years later I cannot imagine life without my wife and family. To a believing and faithful gay Latter-day Saints knowing that I would be unable to experience the joy of marriage and family, this must represent an amazingly difficult sacrifice. Facing such a choice must create significant distress. 

But again, this challenge is not just experienced by Latter-day Saints.  Those who make such ugly accusations and demand the the Church/Synagogue/Mosque alter some of their most basic and fundamental doctrines, are either lazy or insincere. These are not serious people.

Having said all of that,  let me suggest that because gay Latter-day Saint young people experience such a difficult challenge, we do whatever we can to be supportive and kind. 

As has been said before in this thread, the suicide of any gay Latter-day Saint young person is one too many.  And I think most Latter-day Saints would agree with this. 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Michael Sudworth

[ALarson]

29 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Even if it isn't true. I don't think it helps anyone to misrepresent the actual causes of the suicides. That is why I think Reynolds work is reckless at best and possibly even malicious. He is engaging in behavior that experts agree makes the suicide epidemic worse. 

Do you have quotes from any of experts who believe that Reynold's behavior is actually causing suicides (making the "suicide epidemic worse")?  I'd have a difficult time believing he's having that affect, but I admit I have not followed him closely (or much at all).  Where have you read that?  (Honest question...).

Maybe more are just being brought to light?  Or the reasons are being more openly discussed? 

I don't know, I just hope that the numbers can be brought down as it's heartbreaking to hear of any teen committing suicide.

Edited June 15, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

26 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you have quotes from any of experts who believe that Reynold's behavior is actually causing suicides (making the "suicide epidemic worse")?  I'd have a difficult time believing he's having that affect, but I admit I have not followed him closely (or much at all).  Where have you read that?  (Honest question...)

"Imagine efforts to reduce suicide that looked at the full complexity of the picture, while avoiding overly simplistic statements that (people on all sides of this warn) can cause additional harm."

The footnote states:

One mother rightly calls the reality of suicide a deeply painful and personal reality for many families a “tragedy” and something that should “move us to action.” Out of a justified urgency to reduce suicide, it’s been common to hear things from your group such as: “Mama Dragons doesn’t want to destroy the church, we want the church to stop destroying our kids.”  Or accusations that the Church “has created an environment where individuals seek the comfort of death over the sting of life needs to change” – often involving dramatic statements such as: “The history of Utah and the legacy of the LDS Church is splattered with the blood of dead queer youth and adult members.” On two previous occasions, when Wendy Montgomery & Tyler Glenn made similar claims, I have joined people like Kendall Wilcox in making public requests for greater care to how we frame the conversation [Yes, let’s please have a serious conversation about suicide! Questions for the public conversation; Can we stop pretending there is only ONE reasonable explanation for the tragic suicides of LGBT-identifying religious youth?]. In one of those essays, I argued that your own rhetoric that pushes people away from the Church may be directly influencing suicidal thoughts and behavior. My openly gay classmate read it and was initially furious. But then he wrote me, and reversed course, saying the following:

After thinking about this some more and reading the article again, I do now feel that Tyler’s message could be harmful to our young Mormon LGBT kids, who we are all worried for…I come to this conclusion now reluctantly as a gay man who was raised in the 80s and 90s in a very Mormon community and still feel some lingering resentment about the church. As a teen, I didn’t have social media messages making me question my faith and embrace my sexuality. I felt depression about my situation and how I didn’t know what my place in the church was, but I didn’t have the outside pressure to leave the church at the time. I wonder if suicide for me would have been more probable if I agreed to listen to these outside messages of the villainy of church leaders…Coming out too early and rejecting your foundation can be very harmful.

http://unthinkable.cc/larger-reflections/#_ftnref18

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Do you have quotes from any of experts who believe that Reynold's behavior is actually causing suicides (making the "suicide epidemic worse")?  I'd have a difficult time believing he's having that affect, but I admit I have not followed him closely (or much at all).  Where have you read that?  (Honest question...).

Maybe more are just being brought to light?  Or the reasons are being more openly discussed? 

I don't know, I just hope that the numbers can be brought down as it's heartbreaking to hear of any teen committing suicide.

DON’T talk about suicide “epidemics” or suicide rates 
for LGBT people. Remember that sexual orientation 
and gender identity are not recorded at the time of 
death, so we do not have data on suicide rates or deaths 
among LGBT people. In addition, presenting suicide as a 
trend or a widespread occurrence (for example, tallying 
suicide deaths that occur in proximity to an external 
event) can encourage vulnerable individuals to see 
themselves as part of a larger story, which may elevate 
their suicide risk.

DON’T attribute a suicide death to a single factor 
(such as bullying or discrimination) or say that a 
specific anti-LGBT law or policy will “cause” suicide.
Suicide deaths are almost always the result of multiple 
overlapping causes, including mental health issues 
that might not have been recognized or treated. 
Linking suicide directly to external factors like bullying, 
discrimination or anti-LGBT laws can normalize 
suicide by suggesting that it is a natural reaction to 
such experiences or laws. It can also increase suicide 
risk by leading at-risk individuals to identify with the 
experiences of those who have died by suicide.

https://www.lgbtmap.org/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations

Yes, let’s please have a serious conversation about suicide! Questions for the public conversation

http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=593

Can we stop pretending there is only ONE reasonable explanation for the tragic suicides of LGBT-identifying religious youth?

http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=897

 

[california boy]

Suicide in general is a result of people feeling that there is no better way out of their struggles.  I believe the best thing that can curb suicide is to give people hope.  The "It Gets Better" campaign seems to be the best approach I have seen.  What that looks like probably varies widely depending on the person.  Perhaps for Kllindley, it means finding a way within the church to have a happy and fulfilling life within the structure of the church.  For some like me and Daniel it means finding a life outside the church and trusting God away from the church structure.  I personally think that young people need to be exposed to both options as a way to help them see a brighter future.  More work on both sides of the issue need to focus on hope that things can change in a persons life for the better and that their future is not set in concrete.  They have control of their life to find their own path that will bring them a rich and fulfilling life.

Perhaps the most dangerous thing some in the church is expressing (as has been written in this very thread) is that the "gay lifestyle" is not healthy for individuals and not healthy for the community.  The fact is, it can be very healthy for some individuals.  I certainly have thrived by the choices I have made to leave the church and find a wonderful man to share my life with.  He brings me just as much joy and fulfillment as any heterosexual that has found someone to share their life with.  I don't see the church supporting such a choice, but perhaps those within the church should stop demonizing such a choice.  

What I do think Tyler Glenn is doing that is dangerous is holding out hope that somehow the church will change its position on this issue. I don't see that happening, and holding out a false hope can be extremely dangerous when that change does not happen.  

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said:

... Between the hormones and my extended "ugly stage", being a teenager was hard. ...

Hey, at least you grew out of yours!  

What?  Oh, sorry.  Couldn't resist.   

Carry on!  

P.S.: As a friend of mine once put it, "Beauty may be only skin-deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone!"  

[Kenngo1969]

10 hours ago, kllindley said:

DON’T talk about suicide “epidemics” or suicide rates 
for LGBT people. Remember that sexual orientation 
and gender identity are not recorded at the time of 
death, so we do not have data on suicide rates or deaths 
among LGBT people.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]  In addition, presenting suicide as a 
trend or a widespread occurrence (for example, tallying 
suicide deaths that occur in proximity to an external 
event) can encourage vulnerable individuals to see 
themselves as part of a larger story, which may elevate 
their suicide risk.

DON’T attribute a suicide death to a single factor 
(such as bullying or discrimination) or say that a 
specific anti-LGBT law or policy will “cause” suicide.
Suicide deaths are almost always the result of multiple 
overlapping causes, including mental health issues 
that might not have been recognized or treated. 
Linking suicide directly to external factors like bullying, 
discrimination or anti-LGBT laws can normalize 
suicide by suggesting that it is a natural reaction to 
such experiences or laws. It can also increase suicide 
risk by leading at-risk individuals to identify with the 
experiences of those who have died by suicide.

https://www.lgbtmap.org/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations

In addition to the bolded quotation above, suicide is too complex of a problem which is driven by too complex of a constellation of factors to be attributed with any degree of certainty to one factor (e.g., sexual orientation or religion) above all of the others.  And yet "Mama Dragons," et al, have told us that there has been a "spike" in deaths of LGBTQIA... youth and/or that the rate of suicides among LGBTQIA... youth has risen in Utah, one or both of which can be traced directly to policies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quote

 

Yes, let’s please have a serious conversation about suicide! Questions for the public conversation

http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=593

Can we stop pretending there is only ONE reasonable explanation for the tragic suicides of LGBT-identifying religious youth?  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

http://www.flirtingwithcuriosity.org/?p=897

 

 

 

No, because that doesn't fit the narrative of the people who are vying the hardest to get in front of the people with the microphones and the cameras or the audio recorders, notebooks, and pens.  They have already determined that the deaths of any and all LGBTQIA... youth in Utah are directly traceable to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  (For "proof" of their assertion, all I had to do was run the search "spike suicide LGBT youth Utah LDS" in Google.)  QED.  Of course, failing adequately to characterize a problem at the outset is the first step toward not discovering effective solutions for it, but that is irrelevant.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[gopher]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

He's a public figure.  I'm not sure he "made [it] public" as much as he acknowledged that it's happened (or that it's happening).

In any event, we aren't really in a position to judge why a family falls apart.  We can surmise, I suppose, but I think it's better to keep such things to ourselves.

Because gun control is a public/civil/legal issue that involves and affects all of us.  The dissolution of Dan Reynolds's marriage does not.

Maybe so.  But there's seldom any value to publicly critiquing another person's divorce.  We may as well criticize him for having too few children.  Or too many.  

The decision to marry is an intensely personal one.  So too is the decision to end a marriage.  I think the better thing to do is to abstain from publicly speaking on such things.

If you were in a position of stewardship or friendship, you might be in a position to tell him that.  But we aren't in such a position.

So do I.  But it's not really our business to publicly fault him on this point.  It's a decision that is his and his wife's, that's all.

Yes, he runs the risk of having his personal life overly-scrutinized by strangers.  Let's not indulge in that.

We can critique Dan Reynolds's opinions and statements about public issues all the day long.  But as for his marriage and/or divorce, I think we should wish him and his family the best, but otherwise leave them be.

Thanks,

-Smac

Cool, first time I've been smac'ed on this board!  Do you ever worry that by refuting a post point by point that you may miss the overall intent of the poster?  I'm not suggesting anyone judge why his family fell apart.  I'm merely voicing an opinion that I'm now less interested in hearing what he has to say in the documentary he made with his wife, no matter the reason or who was at fault for their divorce.  Too harsh?  maybe so.

[gopher]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

And he may have asked to do this and his wife refused.  Or it may never have occurred to him...or they tried it and it failed.

We have no knowledge of the inner dynamics of their relationship or how much time they have spent together save what they shared and the little I have read indicates the wife was very invested in his career as well, a creative partner as well as a family one, and they intend her to continue to do so.

It is gossip imo to act as if we know more than we do.

He shared very little and asked that the family get privacy for the rest.  In condemning him, I believe one can stray into behaviour that harms his wife and daughter's even if one believes Reynolds himself doesn't deserve that consideration.

Removing all the snark from my previous posts, my comments reflect my great disappointment and sadness when any LDS couple divorce when they have small children, no matter the reason.  In Reynolds case, it also affects my interest in seeing his documentary where he and his wife are portrayed as a devoted couple.  I'm not encouraging anyone to condemn either of them because of their divorce.  It's my opinion they would be a stronger voice for change if there weren't getting divorced.

And gossiping is actually good thing

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, kllindley said:

DON’T talk about suicide “epidemics” or suicide rates 
for LGBT people.

Um, I was quoting your post where you used that term (that's why I put it in quotation marks):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69920-variety-lds-musician-confronts-his-church’s-lgbt-stance-in-new-sundance-documentary/?do=findComment&comment=1209827015

You Stated:

Quote

Even if it isn't true. I don't think it helps anyone to misrepresent the actual causes of the suicides. That is why I think Reynolds work is reckless at best and possibly even malicious. He is engaging in behavior that experts agree makes the suicide epidemic worse. 

 

[kllindley]

Just now, ALarson said:

Um, I was quoting your post where you used that term (that's why I put it in quotation marks):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69920-variety-lds-musician-confronts-his-church’s-lgbt-stance-in-new-sundance-documentary/?do=findComment&comment=1209827015

You Stated:

 

Sorry. That is a quote from the source posted below it.

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, kllindley said:

Can we stop pretending there is only ONE reasonable explanation for the tragic suicides of LGBT-identifying religious youth?

Who has stated "there is only ONE reasonable explanation" for these suicides?  I know that I have said religion is a contributing factor (not even naming just Mormonism).  I agree that it would be rare for religion to be the only explanation for a youth's suicide.  I do believe that for some it was a major factor though.

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Sorry. That is a quote from the source posted below it.

Ok...you stated it as if they were your words and didn't put them in quotes (there was also no source posted in your post).  Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I was just using the words you appeared to have used (and I did put them in quotes).

Edited June 15, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

Just now, ALarson said:

Who has stated "there is only ONE reasonable explanation" for these suicides?  I know that I have said religion is a contributing factor (not even naming just Mormonism).  I agree that it would be rare for religion to be the only explanation for a youth's suicide.  I do believe that for some it was a major factor though.

I'm sorry for the confusion. That also is the title of the article linked immediately below. 

You have said that religion is a factor. I am not criticizing you at all. I am talking about Dan Reynolds.     

The narrative of Dan Reynolds documentary is as the LA Times described it: "a tender tribute to those teens who lost their lives in a tragic struggle between sexuality and faith."

 

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok...you stated it as if they were your words and didn't put them in quotes.  Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I was just using the words you appeared to have used (and I did put them in quotes).

Right. You didn't do anything wrong.  I'm sorry I'm on mobile and didn't format well. I'll fix that later this afternoon. I was just giving quotes of what Dan Reynolds is doing that experts say increases risk of suicide. 

[changed]

On 12/1/2017 at 3:05 AM, MumblingMormonMetaphysics said:

... this idea ...about bottom-up change ......We believe God is at the helm, issuing the calls through His chosen servants, not that people are self-selecting themselves....

 

There are some who have argued with G-d... and changed G-d's mind.

• Ex 32 comes to mind... 9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people...10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, ....11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?....14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
• Gen 18: 20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous... And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?...And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
• 2 Kingws 20 ... I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. 4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will healthee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.

• 3 And it came to pass that in this year Nephi did cry unto the Lord, saying: 4 O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather let there be a famine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee. 5 And so it was done, according to the words of Nephi. And there was a great famine upon the land, among all the people of Nephi.

• .... And it came to pass that when Nephi saw that the people had repented and did humble themselves in sackcloth, he cried again unto the Lord, saying.. Lord, behold this people repenteth; ...11 Now, O Lord, because of this their humility wilt thou turn away thine anger, ...O Lord, wilt thou turn away thine anger, and try again if they will serve thee? 17 And it came to pass that in the seventy and sixth year the Lord did turn away his anger from the people, and caused that rain should fall upon the earth, insomuch that it did bring forth her fruit in the season of her fruit

etc. etc.

It seems you can talk God into changing His mind about things.  Free will and all of that?  The last shall be fist, and the first shall be last - I think there are legitimate bottom-up changes.  Ideally, it is not a dictatorship, it is a system with 2-way communication where everyone shares what they need, and those who happen to be in leadership positions listen and try to help in the best way that they can.  Servant leadership is the best type of leadership.

Edited June 15, 2018 by changed

[kllindley]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Suicide in general is a result of people feeling that there is no better way out of their struggles.  I believe the best thing that can curb suicide is to give people hope.  The "It Gets Better" campaign seems to be the best approach I have seen.  What that looks like probably varies widely depending on the person.  Perhaps for Kllindley, it means finding a way within the church to have a happy and fulfilling life within the structure of the church.  For some like me and Daniel it means finding a life outside the church and trusting God away from the church structure.  I personally think that young people need to be exposed to both options as a way to help them see a brighter future.  More work on both sides of the issue need to focus on hope that things can change in a persons life for the better and that their future is not set in concrete.  They have control of their life to find their own path that will bring them a rich and fulfilling life.

Perhaps the most dangerous thing some in the church is expressing (as has been written in this very thread) is that the "gay lifestyle" is not healthy for individuals and not healthy for the community.  The fact is, it can be very healthy for some individuals.  I certainly have thrived by the choices I have made to leave the church and find a wonderful man to share my life with.  He brings me just as much joy and fulfillment as any heterosexual that has found someone to share their life with.  I don't see the church supporting such a choice, but perhaps those within the church should stop demonizing such a choice.  

What I do think Tyler Glenn is doing that is dangerous is holding out hope that somehow the church will change its position on this issue. I don't see that happening, and holding out a false hope can be extremely dangerous when that change does not happen.  

I completely agree that members should not demonize your choice. I hope nothing I've said has been seen as demonizing you or your choice.

And I deeply appreciate your recognition that both sides need to do better at acknowledging the possibility of a better future. 

That is why I was so frustrated when Reynolds completely discounts those who are happy in the Church. He even goes so far as to twist their own words against them. That's not only poor behavior against these individuals, it undermines the very hope you described above. 

[changed]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

  Perhaps for Kllindley, it means finding a way within the church to have a happy and fulfilling life within the structure of the church.  For some like me and Daniel it means finding a life outside the church and trusting God away from the church structure.  I personally think that young people need to be exposed to both options as a way to help them see a brighter future.  

I wholeheartedly agree with the above.  I'm a "cafeteria" Mormon.  I attend church to support family members there, but the church does not dictate my belief system - as no church should control anyone's beliefs.  My beliefs are my own, I will follow my own conscience.  There are a few in my ward who avoid association with me, but many others who are very supportive.  "Being different" has led me to closer associations and better friendships that seem genuine.  

Letting go of trying to be a TBM - it feels like a huge weight has been lifted.  

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

Suicide in general is a result of people feeling that there is no better way out of their struggles.  I believe the best thing that can curb suicide is to give people hope.  The "It Gets Better" campaign seems to be the best approach I have seen.  What that looks like probably varies widely depending on the person.  Perhaps for Kllindley, it means finding a way within the church to have a happy and fulfilling life within the structure of the church.  For some like me and Daniel it means finding a life outside the church and trusting God away from the church structure.  I personally think that young people need to be exposed to both options as a way to help them see a brighter future.  More work on both sides of the issue need to focus on hope that things can change in a persons life for the better and that their future is not set in concrete.  They have control of their life to find their own path that will bring them a rich and fulfilling life.

Perhaps the most dangerous thing some in the church is expressing (as has been written in this very thread) is that the "gay lifestyle" is not healthy for individuals and not healthy for the community.  The fact is, it can be very healthy for some individuals.  I certainly have thrived by the choices I have made to leave the church and find a wonderful man to share my life with.  He brings me just as much joy and fulfillment as any heterosexual that has found someone to share their life with.  I don't see the church supporting such a choice, but perhaps those within the church should stop demonizing such a choice.  

What I do think Tyler Glenn is doing that is dangerous is holding out hope that somehow the church will change its position on this issue. I don't see that happening, and holding out a false hope can be extremely dangerous when that change does not happen.  

I read recently that the Millenials and soon the Gen Alpha generations will change the church. It will have to change, the Gen Alpha won't know anything different as far as gay marraige. They will wonder what the problem is since it's all they've ever known. The Gen Alpha's are born between 2013 and 2025. I give the church about 10-15 years. Scott Lloyd will have to time me.  ETA: On second thought it may take twice that long, forgot how long it took the PH ban to change.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Tacenda

[changed]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

...forgot how long it took the PH ban to change.

1978 was far too long to wait on this.  It is hard to imagine that was going on as recently as 1978.