Progression Between Kingdoms

[MDalby]

55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nice post but was it supposed to address the question I asked?

I don't see anything relevant here- what am I missing?

Well, why don't you tell me what you meant when you referred to section 76 and what end conclusion you were driving towards.

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, MDalby said:

What is the purpose of teaching people in the spirit world about Gospel principles that include baptism for the dead and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost if those principles do not apply to them?  Is God just thumbing His nose at them?

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
(D&C 138:32-37, 58-59)

So what do these verses mean to you?  Ordinances only apply to the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. 
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation".  The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?
Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

I think the pre-resurrection spirit world is an extension of the mortal state where we are given a space to repent, "to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead" (Alma 12:24). The reason I say that is because Adam (Alma 42:5) was prevented from partaking of the tree of life and thus losing this space to repent in two ways; 1) the cherubim and flaming sword; and 2) death, since without a body, he cannot partake.

The "endless state" is not just a body that does not die, but the agency of the soul which eventually partakes of the tree of life unto immortality. The state of our agency depends entirely on our willingness, which is a state of preparation, signifying that it is preliminary and requisite to any subsequent state. if that subsequent state is the endless one, there is simply nowhere else to go.

[Rock_N_Roll]

I have a hard time believing in a loving Father that would say to his son; “Ok son, you’ve got one chance and once chance only.  If you screw up, I never want to see you again”.

 

[MDalby]

9 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I have a hard time believing in a loving Father that would say to his son; “Ok son, you’ve got one chance and once chance only.  If you screw up, I never want to see you again”.

 

Amen...  So, like the prodigal son, if one of Father's children has a change of heart, He is going to say, Sorry my son, your bed is made and there is no hope for you.  Sorry"

No, if one of Father's children has a change in desires He will "bring" them into a position they they will be as happy as they are willing to be.  It is dependent upon our willingness.

Quote

God loves his offspring, the human family. His design is not simply to furnish happiness to the few here, called Latter-day Saints. The plan and scheme that he is now carrying out is for universal salvation; not only for the salvation of the Latter-day Saints, but for the salvation of every man and woman on the face of the earth, for those also in the spirit world, and for those who may hereafter come upon the face of the earth. It is for the salvation of every son and daughter of Adam. They are the offspring of the Almighty, he loves them all and his plans are for the salvation of the whole, and he will bring all up into that position in which they will be as happy and as comfortable as they are willing to be.
(Lorenzo Snow, JD, 14:308)

 

[longview]

2 hours ago, MDalby said:

I also believe that there is potential to progress from one kingdom to another, based on a person's willingness to repent 

It appears you are confusing the term "kingdom" with the state we will be in upon death, i.e. spirit prison (one part will be Paradise or Abraham's Bosom as described in Luke 16:19-31:  other part will be the "Place of Torment").  Spirit Prison is a temporary state between mortality and the Resurrection in which we will rest, make reconciliations, suffer pains of the wicked, or be subject to the buffetings of Satan.  We are NOT assigned a kingdom until we have arrived at final judgment (after all is said and done).  The kind of kingdom we merit will be based on the kind of bodies we will attain in the Resurrection:  Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial.  After that point there is NO changing or modifying of resurrected bodies.  Therefore NO progression between kingdoms.

3 hours ago, MDalby said:

In the above verses, individuals that rejected the truth in mortality will have an opportunity to repent and be obedient to ordinances.  We know that ordinances are only needed for the Celestial Kingdom, so this would indicate that they would progress form one kingdom to another.

Yes we can repent in Spirit Prison.  However, those who knew the Gospel in mortality but were disobedient will have to suffer in the "Place of Torment" because they did not respect the Atonement.  They still have the "Free Gift" portion that enables them to obtain a resurrection.  I agree that all ordinances apply only to the Celestial Kingdom.  But no, there cannot be progression between kingdoms AFTER the resurrection.

[longview]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course it does not imply that- it only implies that WE do not know what God is doing and there is no point to this thread.

The scriptures on this subject seem to be ambiguous and contradictory

But we DO know some things God is doing for He has bountifully revealed truths to us through the scriptures and personal revelation.  There are sufficient sound doctrines we can rely on in spite of ambiguities and errors in the Bible (and even BoM).  I am curious:  can you supply a number of contradictions you have found?

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I have a hard time believing in a loving Father that would say to his son; “Ok son, you’ve got one chance and once chance only.  If you screw up, I never want to see you again”.

23 minutes ago, MDalby said:

Amen...  So, like the prodigal son, if one of Father's children has a change of heart, He is going to say, Sorry my son, your bed is made and there is no hope for you.  Sorry"

No, if one of Father's children has a change in desires He will "bring" them into a position they they will be as happy as they are willing to be.  It is dependent upon our willingness.

I don't think he's saying that at all. He's saying, “I have sacrificed Mine Only Begotten Son so you might choose to love, and to choose me, your Father, according to your mortal capacity which you have inherited from Adam."

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by CV75

[ksfisher]

41 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I have a hard time believing in a loving Father that would say to his son; “Ok son, you’ve got one chance and once chance only.  If you screw up, I never want to see you again”.

 

Who has the Father said that to? 

[MDalby]

26 minutes ago, longview said:

Yes we can repent in Spirit Prison.  However, those who knew the Gospel in mortality but were disobedient will have to suffer in the "Place of Torment" because they did not respect the Atonement.  They still have the "Free Gift" portion that enables them to obtain a resurrection.  I agree that all ordinances apply only to the Celestial Kingdom.  But no, there cannot be progression between kingdoms AFTER the resurrection.

With your position on this topic, please explain the verses below?  In those verses the individuals were disobedient and rejected the gospel and yet have an opportunity to repent and be obedient to the ordinances that are required for the Celestial kingdom.

 

 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. 
 33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, 
 34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 
 35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. 
 36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; 
 37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. 
 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 
 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
(D&C 138:32-37, 58-59)

But no, there cannot be progression between kingdoms AFTER the resurrection.

You seem to be pretty definitive about a topic that the Church says we do not have a definitive position.  If it was absolute, I would think the Church would says o.

 

Quote

"The position of the First Presidency on progression from one kingdom to a higher glory after the resurrection and judgment is that the Lord has not revealed this knowledge to mankind.  Speculation and supposition on this topic is inappropriate."
(Memorandum from the First Presidency through the Church Correlation Department to Church curriculum writers, Ed Brandt, Church Correlation Department)

 

[MDalby]

42 minutes ago, longview said:

It appears you are confusing the term "kingdom" with the state we will be in upon death, i.e. spirit prison (one part will be Paradise or Abraham's Bosom as described in Luke 16:19-31:  other part will be the "Place of Torment").  Spirit Prison is a temporary state between mortality and the Resurrection in which we will rest, make reconciliations, suffer pains of the wicked, or be subject to the buffetings of Satan.

So you are saying that after the final judgment the assigning of a kingdom is final and the torment is eternal?

 

Quote

 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 
 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 
 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 
 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. 
 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. 
 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. 
 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore"” 
 11 Eternal punishment is God's punishment. 
 12 Endless punishment is God's punishment. 
(D&C 19:6-12)

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by MDalby

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, MDalby said:

There is never a time when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin
(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 191)

How do you define the word never?

That actually goes along with what I was saying about the repentance having to take place in the spirit world before the judgement and before the entrance to hell to pay for any sins for which repentance has not happened. Once a person has gone through hell, repentance is no longer an option because the unrepentant has already paid the price and will be "be saved in his degree of worthiness and desert" as per the quote from Talmage. And that state will be "worlds without end."

Glenn

[MDalby]

10 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

That actually goes along with what I was saying about the repentance having to take place in the spirit world before the judgement and before the entrance to hell to pay for any sins for which repentance has not happened. Once a person has gone through hell, repentance is no longer an option because the unrepentant has already paid the price and will be "be saved in his degree of worthiness and desert" as per the quote from Talmage. And that state will be "worlds without end."

Glenn

Hmm...  Worlds without end sounds like endless with no end.

 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 
 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 
 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 
 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. 
 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. 
 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. 
 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore"” 
 11 Eternal punishment is God's punishment. 
 12 Endless punishment is God's punishment. 
(D&C 19:6-12)

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, MDalby said:

Hmm...  Worlds without end sounds like endless with no end.

 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 
 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 
 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 
 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. 
 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. 
 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. 
 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore"” 
 11 Eternal punishment is God's punishment. 
 12 Endless punishment is God's punishment. 
(D&C 19:6-12)

That is in accordance with what I have been saying and with my Talmage quote. The hell/torment portion would be between the judgement and being placed in the kingdom that had been earned. I believe this was what King Davis was referencing in Psalm 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." David had sinned a sin for which there was no forgiveness but had to pay the penalty himself and will yet receive a kingdom of glory although, according to D&C 132:39 he has lost his exaltation. (I do not know if David will be in the celestial kingdom as a ministering angel or the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial though.) I was just illustrating the point that was made in you post about hell having an entrance and an exit. The endless torment was clarified/defined in the Doctrine and Covenants; the same canon of scriptures where "worlds without end" was declared. I have not seen the "worlds without end" clarified in the way that "endless punishment" was clarified or defined.

Glenn

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, MDalby said:

What is the purpose of teaching people in the spirit world about Gospel principles that include baptism for the dead and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost if those principles do not apply to them?  Is God just thumbing His nose at them?

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
(D&C 138:32-37, 58-59)

So what do these verses mean to you?  Ordinances only apply to the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. 
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation".  The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?
Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

 

Same answer I gave before. I think you are confused.

Obviously people can be baptized "for the dead" in the temple and reach the CK. That is compatible with the JFS quote above

Nothing here has anything to do with progression between kingdoms.

Edited November 15, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, longview said:

But we DO know some things God is doing for He has bountifully revealed truths to us through the scriptures and personal revelation.  There are sufficient sound doctrines we can rely on in spite of ambiguities and errors in the Bible (and even BoM).  I am curious:  can you supply a number of contradictions you have found?

In doctrine in general? Or on this topic?

Knowing Doctrine requires interpretation and there are always possible contradictions in interpretations.

You mean you have never seen two people what scripture for or against the same idea? Like maybe Evolution or no evolution? Polygamy is right or polygamy is wrong? Prophets are infallible versus prophets are not infallible? Or this question - there is progression between kingdoms versus there is not progression between kingdoms? All you have to do Is read this thread to see the possible contradictions.

My interpretation of the scriptures that says that progression between kingdoms is not possible because you inherit a body corresponding with the degree of glory that you deserve. You cannot change bodies in order to change kingdoms.

But if I knew how God actually does this I would have to be him myself. Clearly I am not

I think there's no way to resolve the question while we are still mortals

Edited November 15, 2017 by mfbukowski

[filovirus]

4 hours ago, MDalby said:

Amen...  So, like the prodigal son, if one of Father's children has a change of heart, He is going to say, Sorry my son, your bed is made and there is no hope for you.  Sorry"

No, if one of Father's children has a change in desires He will "bring" them into a position they they will be as happy as they are willing to be.  It is dependent upon our willingness.

 

You are misrepresenting the story of the prodigal son. True, the son was welcomed back. But he wasn't given another inheritance. The steadfast son still maintained his inheritance and all that the father had in store for him while the prodigal son did not.

Edited November 15, 2017 by filovirus

[Glenn101]

I have had the opportunity to reflect a bit on one of MDalby's points, i.e. that baptism is just for the Celestial kingdom in which he quotes:

"Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?
Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)"

Now I do not disagree with that statement at all. But I would like to add the thought that there will probably be some if not many who do become baptized but do not gain the Celestial Kingdom. Some who never go to the temple to be sealed. People who go inactive but lead pretty good lives but do not pay their tithing, etc. Baptism is necessary for the remission of sins also, or so I have been taught. But those just may not make the Celestial kingdom but would not have to pay for the sins they committed and repented of. I am not sure that not paying tithing, a so called sin of omission, would be something that would require a session in hell, but would be one of those things for which no reward would be received.

Now, as to the spirit world and vicarious baptism for the dead. Say a person who rejected the gospel in the past life but now has thought the better of it, repents and accepts the gospel, yet have not works worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, but would still be forgiven of the for which they had repented.

Glenn

[RevTestament]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:45 AM, Rivers said:

A while ago I remember a poster on this board saying something to the effect of the plan of salvation making sense only if choice will always be a factor.  Meaning that anybody can be in the celestial kingdom eventually as long as he/she chooses to be there.  

I recently finished the Givens' new Book The Christ Who Heals.  And to my amazement, they devote  an entire chapter to the idea if progress between kingdoms.  They make the case that God loves us much that the door will always be open to us to progress and have a relationship with Him.  They do, however, point out that the church has stated there is no official position on this matter and that this their hopeful opinion. But I find it incredible that that I was reading this in something from Deseret Book.  We've come a long way since BRM denounced this belief as a heresy.

I would have to agree that nothing in the gospel makes sense if there is fixed final judgement.  I don't see how we can prize agency as much as we do only to have it essentially made  useless in the life to come.  

You can all burn me at the stake now.

 Oh, come now, we will only burn you until you cry stop!  I've posted on this before. There is no progression between kingdoms while out of the world. Angels, etc, cannot have an increase. The only way to receive an increase is to agree to go to another world. In that there is "eternal" progression, although I really don't know how one can progress further than "the Most High Power", El Elyon. That may be it for all we know. Although scripture talks about there being no end to the increase of Christ's government, how do you increase beyond ruler of the whole world? Maybe there is a way, but it is not in the scriptures that I see. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 Oh, come now, we will only burn you until you cry stop!  I've posted on this before. There is no progression between kingdoms while out of the world. Angels, etc, cannot have an increase. The only way to receive an increase is to agree to go to another world. In that there is "eternal" progression, although I really don't know how one can progress further than "the Most High Power", El Elyon. That may be it for all we know. Although scripture talks about there being no end to the increase of Christ's government, how do you increase beyond ruler of the whole world? Maybe there is a way, but it is not in the scriptures that I see. 

Well I have opinions on this which are not traditional but I think we will all agree that if anything, Bruce R McConkie was definitely "traditional" and yet even he could see that the "rule of the whole world" could progress in his famous talk "The Seven Deadly Heresies", and I think this will be compatible with your view and yet illustrate a way God could progress.

Quote

 

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false—utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply—not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is “Eternal,” using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God’s life is eternal life, and eternal life is God’s life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_seven-deadly-heresies/

I do not believe there are a finite number of "things to know", so I see God as knowing "all that is known" with the possibility that there could still be "new things to organize" as He continues to organize the universe

So suppose in some future state of the universe, God sees a new way of organizing reality which he does not know now?

At some point the problem is that language breaks down so for me the idea of "omniscience" is impossible to define coherently.   I actually see "omniscience" as a limit to God's ability to create himself. 

I think that might be a problem with your view actually.  I mean I know your words are a metaphor, but carrying that on using the same metaphor, how could you be greater than "the ruler of the whole world?"

Well obviously the answer is the "ruler of many worlds" and of course we know that He is at least that.

But whatever image you have of "everything" is kind of like the concept of "infinity"  Does the idea of "infinity plus one" mean anything?  How about multiple "infinities"?

And yet we LDS speak of plural "Eternities" all the time... 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/07/living-for-the-eternities?lang=eng

So how many "everythings" are there?

So to McConkie's question

Quote

 

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

 

I would ask the question so God does not "know new truths"?

There are only a finite number of "truths"?

Again- as all the problems- to me they all grow out of linguistic confusions.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I have opinions on this which are not traditional but I think we will all agree that if anything, Bruce R McConkie was definitely "traditional" and yet even he could see that the "rule of the whole world" could progress in his famous talk "The Seven Deadly Heresies", and I think this will be compatible with your view and yet illustrate a way God could progress.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_seven-deadly-heresies/

I do not believe there are a finite number of "things to know", so I see God as knowing "all that is known" with the possibility that there could still be "new things to organize" as He continues to organize the universe

So suppose in some future state of the universe, God sees a new way of organizing reality which he does not know now?

At some point the problem is that language breaks down so for me the idea of "omniscience" is impossible to define coherently.   I actually see "omniscience" as a limit to God's ability to create himself. 

I think that might be a problem with your view actually.  I mean I know your words are a metaphor, but carrying that on using the same metaphor, how could you be greater than "the ruler of the whole world?"

Well obviously the answer is the "ruler of many worlds" and of course we know that He is at least that.

But whatever image you have of "everything" is kind of like the concept of "infinity"  Does the idea of "infinity plus one" mean anything?  How about multiple "infinities"?

And yet we LDS speak of plural "Eternities" all the time... 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/07/living-for-the-eternities?lang=eng

So how many "everythings" are there?

Well, without getting into vagaries of omnipotence, I am just speaking from a scriptural perspective.  While I may not agree with BM on whether this is a "deadly heresy,"  I am somewhat inclined to agree with him. We have no idea if the Father rules more than one world at a time or not - at least I don't. I have entertained the idea that the Father creates a new world, and the Son creates a new world as the Father, but I don't see how that would work scripturally, so I have to go with one at a time. However, I have this vague feeling that there are other contemporaneous worlds and other Christ's, but I certainly can't say that.

[longview]

8 hours ago, MDalby said:

With your position on this topic, please explain the verses below?  In those verses the individuals were disobedient and rejected the gospel and yet have an opportunity to repent and be obedient to the ordinances that are required for the Celestial kingdom.

It appears you are misunderstanding what D&C 138 is talking about.  Vision of President JSF is focused entirely on the Spirit World (the state between mortal death and the resurrection).  There can be repentance and improvements in either Paradise or the "Place of Torment."  You cannot inject doctrine about progression between kingdoms of glories.  D&C 138 does NOT reveal anything about changing bodily attributes AFTER the resurrection.  You have NO references that support your contention.

9 hours ago, MDalby said:

You seem to be pretty definitive about a topic that the Church says we do not have a definitive position.  If it was absolute, I would think the Church would says so.

I will admit surprise at this quote.  Is there a link, reference, date, place?  I appreciate the identification of Ed Brandt.  See Obtaining-and-Maintaining-Scriptural-and-Doctrinal-Integrity

9 hours ago, MDalby said:

So you are saying that after the final judgment the assigning of a kingdom is final and the torment is eternal?

My understanding is that the resurrection is final.  Because of that, the "assignment" to a kingdom of glory will be fixed.

When I speak of the "Place of Torment" I am only referring to that state between mortal death and the resurrection.  I did NOT claim that torment would be "extended" from Spirit Prison to the Eternities forever.  However there probably will be another kind of hell for those who end up in Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms who will have powerful remorse for not making the "necessary" sacrifices to qualify for a "better" resurrection.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

[MDalby]

18 hours ago, filovirus said:

You are misrepresenting the story of the prodigal son. True, the son was welcomed back. But he wasn't given another inheritance. The steadfast son still maintained his inheritance and all that the father had in store for him while the prodigal son did not.

 

All of this helps us understand an important meaning of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, which the Savior gave to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like. As you remember, the owner of the vineyard hired laborers at different times of the day. Some he sent into the vineyard early in the morning, others about the third hour, and others in the sixth and ninth hours. Finally, in the eleventh hour he sent others into the vineyard, promising that he would also pay them “whatsoever is right” (Matt. 20:7).
At the end of the day the owner of the vineyard gave the same wage to every worker, even to those who had come in the eleventh hour. When those who had worked the entire day saw this, “they murmured against the goodman of the house” (Matt. 20:11). The owner did not yield but merely pointed out that he had done no one any wrong, since he had paid each man the agreed amount.
Like other parables, this one can teach several different and valuable principles. For present purposes its lesson is that the Master’s reward in the Final Judgment will not be based on how long we have labored in the vineyard. We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to “add water”—the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition—even in the eleventh hour—these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard.
(Dallin H. Oaks, The Challenge to Become, Ensign, Nov 2000)

 

Who in your opinion will receive an inheritance?  The good son with the bad heart or the bad son with the good heart?

Edited November 16, 2017 by MDalby

[filovirus]

6 hours ago, MDalby said:

 

All of this helps us understand an important meaning of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, which the Savior gave to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like. As you remember, the owner of the vineyard hired laborers at different times of the day. Some he sent into the vineyard early in the morning, others about the third hour, and others in the sixth and ninth hours. Finally, in the eleventh hour he sent others into the vineyard, promising that he would also pay them “whatsoever is right” (Matt. 20:7).
At the end of the day the owner of the vineyard gave the same wage to every worker, even to those who had come in the eleventh hour. When those who had worked the entire day saw this, “they murmured against the goodman of the house” (Matt. 20:11). The owner did not yield but merely pointed out that he had done no one any wrong, since he had paid each man the agreed amount.
Like other parables, this one can teach several different and valuable principles. For present purposes its lesson is that the Master’s reward in the Final Judgment will not be based on how long we have labored in the vineyard. We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to “add water”—the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition—even in the eleventh hour—these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard.
(Dallin H. Oaks, The Challenge to Become, Ensign, Nov 2000)

 

Did the son who didn't squander his inheritance have a bad heart?

 

Yes, the bad son repented while he had the chance. It is a stretch trying to shoehorn the story of the prodigal son into progression between kingdoms. I hope that there is progression between kingdoms, but I am not to that conclusion based on the parable of the prodigal son. A prophet once said: "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God".

"We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent.Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy." - James E. Faust, April 2003

 

Edit to add: In the parable of the laborers, there was still a time set aside for reckoning. This is when all laborers were paid in full. Those who never participated received nothing.

Edited November 17, 2017 by filovirus