clarkgoble Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Calm said: Back when I was newly married, my exboss' kid was kidnapped from the Provo area and taken home with him to So Cal by a rapist (she was around 5 and was taken for 6 weeks, iirc). There were several kipnappings and assaults over the next while. I heard from one police officer who specialized in sex crimes, that Utah Valley attracted sexual criminals due to the perceived innocence of its children and young adults. How horrific. I hope she was saved. That happens more than many think. We were having dinner with a friend of my wife's last week. He was a detective and had been undercover for some predator busts in Provo including one in my neighborhood. We never leave our kids out without our dog being out and neighbors around. But you still hear of attempted kidnappings. I know homelessness is a controversial issue, but there have been some issues there as well. Several of the camps around the mountain have sex offenders in them. The crackdown in SLC has meant more have come to the camps around Provo. Since one is close to our home we've put up security cameras.
Calm Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: How horrific. I hope she was saved. That happens more than many think. We were having dinner with a friend of my wife's last week. He was a detective and had been undercover for some predator busts in Provo including one in my neighborhood. We never leave our kids out without our dog being out and neighbors around. But you still hear of attempted kidnappings. I know homelessness is a controversial issue, but there have been some issues there as well. Several of the camps around the mountain have sex offenders in them. The crackdown in SLC has meant more have come to the camps around Provo. Since one is close to our home we've put up security cameras. She was rescued thank goodness. 1
stemelbow Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 19 hours ago, bsjkki said: It is believed there is an increase in reporting not an increase in assaults. “Julie Valentine, a BYU nursing professor who researches sexual assault and served on the advisory council, said new faith in the school’s Title IX process may have led more survivors to come forward. “I know we have more students reporting, which means that there’s increased trust, so to speak, of the system, and that’s what we want,” she said, noting that the increase likely doesn’t reflect an increase in sexual assaults.” That's really nice to hear, but how would she know? It would be good to hear the actual number in this. She could be saying anything at this point to spin positive, since, as far as I can see, there is nothing to back up the assumption of less assaults. I'd guess it's still true that many assaults go unreported, sadly. That ought to concern someone, you would think. I guess I'm not satisfied until there are zero assaults on BYU"s campus, with it's students.
stemelbow Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 19 hours ago, bluebell said: If this increase is because more women are reporting assault that could have gotten them in trouble for breaking the honor code, maybe emphasis should be put on how actually keeping the honor code protects people from sexual assault. It could be, But then again, we have no idea how many assaults have happened in past years nor this year. If 10 actually happened last fall and 4 reported. If 15 actually this fall and 8 reported, great that we see more assaults as a percentage reported. But sad if assaults overall went up. Without reporting all, we simply don't know if there are more or less assaults or if we are getting more percentage of assaults being reported. It might be a good thing overall to start promoting it as you suggest, just to get the word out more, but it also may not be true at all.
The Nehor Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 11:12 AM, bsjkki said: Why did it take negative press to make this change and understand the gravity of the problems? Is this a rhetorical question or are you an alien masquerading as a human to study us and really do not understand how the world works?
bsjkki Posted October 23, 2017 Author Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Is this a rhetorical question or are you an alien masquerading as a human to study us and really do not understand how the world works? Haha...maybe the question I should have asked is...should it have taken a media firestorm to make changes at BYU? I mean, we are supposed to have inspired leaders...which I believe we do. Why this huge blind spot? Anecdotaly I have heard stories from parents, therapists and campus Bishops that have not been happy with the honor code office and how they treat students and assault victims. Should it have taken negative press for BYU to listen to complaints from the powerless? Edited October 23, 2017 by bsjkki 2
Calm Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Haha...maybe the question I should have asked is...should it have taken a media firestorm to make changes at BYU? I mean, we are supposed to have inspired leaders...which I believe we do. Why this huge blind spot? Anecdotaly I have heard stories from parents, therapists and campus Bishops that have not been happy with the honor code office and how they treat students and assault victims. Should it have taken negative press for BYU to listen to complaints from the powerless. No, it should not have, but thank goodness it worked and didn't take something worse.
The Nehor Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 7 hours ago, bsjkki said: Haha...maybe the question I should have asked is...should it have taken a media firestorm to make changes at BYU? I mean, we are supposed to have inspired leaders...which I believe we do. Why this huge blind spot? Anecdotaly I have heard stories from parents, therapists and campus Bishops that have not been happy with the honor code office and how they treat students and assault victims. Should it have taken negative press for BYU to listen to complaints from the powerless? Okay, I figured it was a passive aggressive dig at the church. Good to get the confirmation. 1
Rain Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, bsjkki said: Haha...maybe the question I should have asked is...should it have taken a media firestorm to make changes at BYU? I mean, we are supposed to have inspired leaders...which I believe we do. Why this huge blind spot? Anecdotaly I have heard stories from parents, therapists and campus Bishops that have not been happy with the honor code office and how they treat students and assault victims. Should it have taken negative press for BYU to listen to complaints from the powerless? I think "blind spot' kind of gives the answer. Sometimes we are just blind so we don't know we need an answer so we don't seek for it. Sometimes we are blind because we don't want to see the answer or even that there is a problem at all. We see without seeing. Sometimes it is a little of both. There could be other reasons besides ignorance and pride, but for whatever it is, something about or imperfectness makes us blind...or deaf to the Spirit. Edited October 24, 2017 by Rain 2
stemelbow Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 15 hours ago, Calm said: No, it should not have, but thank goodness it worked and didn't take something worse. of course we have to just assume it worked, since we have no idea how many sexual assaults actually happen. More reported could mean more happened. I know she says it doesn't seem like it, but how would she know? I don't see the grounds for claiming victory in the assumption that sexual assaults must be down, since those who would have faced school discipline for reporting do not have to fear that any more. As we all know there are tons of sexual assaults never reported that have nothing to do with breaking an honor code.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 15 hours ago, bsjkki said: Haha...maybe the question I should have asked is...should it have taken a media firestorm to make changes at BYU? I mean, we are supposed to have inspired leaders...which I believe we do. Why this huge blind spot? Anecdotaly I have heard stories from parents, therapists and campus Bishops that have not been happy with the honor code office and how they treat students and assault victims. Should it have taken negative press for BYU to listen to complaints from the powerless? I think that sometimes people are just way too focused on justice rather than mercy and that it can bleed through into their church callings and church jobs. These are the personality types who's knee-jerk reaction to sexual assault cases, especially if other rules were broken by the person assaulted, believe (probably subconsciously for most of them) that it was the person's own fault they ended up in that situation and consequences are what they are. Or those who, for whatever reason, tend to automatically trust the accused more than the accuser in any situation. No one who struggles with that weakness should be working with sexual assault victims. 3
bsjkki Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Okay, I figured it was a passive aggressive dig at the church. Good to get the confirmation. Yeah, I was sitting in the chapel before Sacrament meeting and read the linked story and honestly asked myself, "Why didn't the leaders know this was a problem? We should be better than this." I do believe the Apostles, most Bishops and BYU leaders would not want to hurt sexual assault victims but I think we have a lot of people at the top who don't understand these issues. Since my personal faith crisis started because of these issues, it always hits close to home. I honestly could not believe the damage good men could inflict due to ignorance. My ignorance also caused me to inflict harm and it is hard to forgive myself. Part of the harm I caused came because I trusted my church leaders and I should not have. Six years later, I have a less idealistic faith, but in many ways, it is much stronger. On many threads, I also see a gender gap. It is important for women to speak up because this board makes it obvious, we see and view things very differently and the ignorance at the top of some hierarchy's do not self rectify. Bluebell said it very well. 57 minutes ago, bluebell said: I think that sometimes people are just way too focused on justice rather than mercy and that it can bleed through into their church callings and church jobs. These are the personality types who's knee-jerk reaction to sexual assault cases, especially if other rules were broken by the person assaulted, believe (probably subconsciously for most of them) that it was the person's own fault they ended up in that situation and consequences are what they are. Or those who, for whatever reason, tend to automatically trust the accused more than the accuser in any situation. No one who struggles with that weakness should be working with sexual assault victims. 2
Danzo Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 One of the pieces that I don't see mentioned much is the massive power imbalance between students and staff at any University. In general, the University (as an institution) has a great deal of control over the lives of students (not just a BYU). They literally control the student's future. This makes it very difficult for students to complain or make waves. This also might explain a bit why predators are so attracted to University Students. I think more needs to be done to make the student-university relationship to more of a business-client type relationship than the Master-servant relationship that it is right now. Students might not then feel so trapped into accepting their situation. 3
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Danzo said: One of the pieces that I don't see mentioned much is the massive power imbalance between students and staff at any University. In general, the University (as an institution) has a great deal of control over the lives of students (not just a BYU). They literally control the student's future. This makes it very difficult for students to complain or make waves. This also might explain a bit why predators are so attracted to University Students. I think more needs to be done to make the student-university relationship to more of a business-client type relationship than the Master-servant relationship that it is right now. Students might not then feel so trapped into accepting their situation. Good point.
clarkgoble Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Danzo said: One of the pieces that I don't see mentioned much is the massive power imbalance between students and staff at any University. In general, the University (as an institution) has a great deal of control over the lives of students (not just a BYU). They literally control the student's future. This makes it very difficult for students to complain or make waves. This also might explain a bit why predators are so attracted to University Students. I think more needs to be done to make the student-university relationship to more of a business-client type relationship than the Master-servant relationship that it is right now. Students might not then feel so trapped into accepting their situation. Non-students experience sexual assault at higher rates than college students according to most studies. (Although one has to be careful with studies since there are some infamous ones that asked intentionally ambiguous questions in order to get desired results) In general I agree there are some power imbalances, if only in perception. I think the reality is a bit more complicated but it's the perception that matters the most in terms of people deciding what to do. I've long thought the honor's department was a mess with many problems and lack of checks and balances. Nothing has really convinced me things have changed significantly the last decade or so. When I was single in Provo I saw at least as many honor code reports (often with consequences) done out of vindictiveness or deception as I did honest reports. Further I knew of many honest reports that had no results where self confessed lies resulted in punishments. It's hard to take seriously such things after seeing that. 2
The Nehor Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 8 hours ago, bsjkki said: Yeah, I was sitting in the chapel before Sacrament meeting and read the linked story and honestly asked myself, "Why didn't the leaders know this was a problem? We should be better than this." I do believe the Apostles, most Bishops and BYU leaders would not want to hurt sexual assault victims but I think we have a lot of people at the top who don't understand these issues. Since my personal faith crisis started because of these issues, it always hits close to home. I honestly could not believe the damage good men could inflict due to ignorance. My ignorance also caused me to inflict harm and it is hard to forgive myself. Part of the harm I caused came because I trusted my church leaders and I should not have. Six years later, I have a less idealistic faith, but in many ways, it is much stronger. On many threads, I also see a gender gap. It is important for women to speak up because this board makes it obvious, we see and view things very differently and the ignorance at the top of some hierarchy's do not self rectify. Bluebell said it very well. I think you should just come out and say that you think apostles and seventies should receive detailed revelation covering all BYU policy and that they should have the insight to end sexual harassment and assault. Why are you disingenuously phrasing it as a question?
bluebell Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think you should just come out and say that you think apostles and seventies should receive detailed revelation covering all BYU policy and that they should have the insight to end sexual harassment and assault. Why are you disingenuously phrasing it as a question? I don’t see any reason to believe she’s not being sincere. 1
The Nehor Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don’t see any reason to believe she’s not being sincere. I think she sincerely questions the church it just seems so silly to phrase it as a question when you have already made a decision. Instead of stating you think the Brethren screwed up it is phrased as a question which deflects criticism of the actual rhetorical objective. If, for example, I started a thread about people resigning from the church and ask the question whether they are going to burn in hell for their decision it is pretty obvious which side I am taking on the issue.
bluebell Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think she sincerely questions the church it just seems so silly to phrase it as a question when you have already made a decision. Instead of stating you think the Brethren screwed up it is phrased as a question which deflects criticism of the actual rhetorical objective. If, for example, I started a thread about people resigning from the church and ask the question whether they are going to burn in hell for their decision it is pretty obvious which side I am taking on the issue. I see what you are saying, but at the same time, rhetorical questions are often legitimately used to facilitate discussion and get people thinking. 1
bsjkki Posted October 25, 2017 Author Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: I think you should just come out and say that you think apostles and seventies should receive detailed revelation covering all BYU policy and that they should have the insight to end sexual harassment and assault. Why are you disingenuously phrasing it as a question? Well...I never said that. 3 hours ago, bluebell said: I see what you are saying, but at the same time, rhetorical questions are often legitimately used to facilitate discussion and get people thinking. This is also true. Sometimes I ask questions to see what other people think. I think there may be structural problems to getting concerns to the top. Edited October 25, 2017 by bsjkki 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 9:12 AM, bsjkki said: Positive changes at BYU are already bringing measurable benefits to the campus. More sexual assault victims are seeking help and reporting and “consent” is now explained at student orientation. ifhttp://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2017/10/22/brigham-young-university-students-say-sexual-assault-policy-changes-have-eased-culture-of-fear-but-theres-more-work-to-be-done/ “Tiffany Turley, the school’s new full-time Title IX coordinator, said the university has received more sexual assault reports in the first few weeks of classes than it saw in fall semester last year. Her office, charged with swiftly responding to and resolving complaints of sexual violence, has provided 60 training sessions to students and faculty already this semester, Turley said. “I think people just might not have known what Title IX was before, so with all the trainings that we’re doing, the awareness campaigns … people know there is a place on campus where they can go and get help,” she said. She said the reports are “significant” but declined to provide a specific figure.” Why did it take negative press to make this change and understand the gravity of the problems? What makes the news. Millions of safe airplane hours of flight without incident, or the time there is an incident?
bluebell Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 50 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: What makes the news. Millions of safe airplane hours of flight without incident, or the time there is an incident? When things function as they should, that's not newsworthy. That's why planes safely landing don't make the news, they are supposed to safely land. One of the purposes of planes is specifically to safely land. It's when something fails to function as it should that it makes the news, for good reason. 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: When things function as they should, that's not newsworthy. That's why planes safely landing don't make the news, they are supposed to safely land. One of the purposes of planes is specifically to safely land. It's when something fails to function as it should that it makes the news, for good reason. Agreed. But how many newsworthy stories does it take to make a media firestorm? I don't know. I assume it has to be more than one. Is it two, three, a dozen, more?
carbon dioxide Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 10:35 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said: Real change in deep seated church policy usually comes from outside pressure. Polygamy, priesthood ban, and now title ix are good examples. I think this is true of pretty much any organization or country, etc. It sometimes takes outsiders, like JK says above, to point out that the emperor has no clothes. As for polygamy, yes it did come from outside pressure from the government. It is not like the Church wanted to go in that direction and it is kind of sad that Church did not fight harder for its rights. Regardless of whether polygamy was right or not, the government had no right to violate the First Amendment rights of the Church and its members over the issue. I totally reject the notion that outside pressure. had any affect over the priesthood issue. Why would the Church care about the views of non-members (almost all of whom have never had an interest at joining the church) on the issue? That is like me making decisions on how I run my household to appease some people who are not a part of my family and I really don't care about. I value the opinions of my dogs over their opinions.
Calm Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: As for polygamy, yes it did come from outside pressure from the government. It is not like the Church wanted to go in that direction and it is kind of sad that Church did not fight harder for its rights. What would you suggest they have done to fight harder? Both men and women went to jail and the government was confiscating Church property.
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