What Kind of Reality for the Plates, on a Tavesian Hypothesis?

[DonBradley]

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

 

[mfbukowski]

Hey Don, good to see you here! Too late for me tonight, but I have some ideas and will post tomorrow, just wanted to say hi!

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, DonBradley said:

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

My research has focused on a similar idea in the Tibetan tradition. Texts are inscribed in a coded language by adepts and are cached either spiritually or physically. When the time is right a treasure finder is given instructions on when and how to reveal the cached text. The treasure finder is usually led to a sacred spot associated with the text and either retrieves a physical scroll or receives the text through a revelation of some sort. Taves mentions:

"The Tibetan Treasure tradition also presents a suggestive opportunity for comparison, though beyond the scope of this paper. This tradition maintains that these Treasures (gter-ma) are special teachings, originally preached by a buddha and later hidden (in most cases) by the Indian master who introduced tantric Buddhism to Tibet. The master is “said to have concealed these teachings in such a way that they would be discovered at a later date by various predetermined Tibetan Treasure discoverers (gter-ston), who would then ‘translate’ their revelation into a form comprehensible to their contemporaries” (Gyatso 1993:98). I am grateful to Jesper Oestergaard of Aarhus University for directing me to this literature."

The treasure text tradition possibly leaked into 18th century Christianity through Emmanuel Swedenborg who spoke of a hidden, or cached, set of scriptures in the Great Tartary (Tibet) that predate the Israelite texts. Swedenborg claimed to have visited the angels who preserved these texts. They informed him that the texts, including the Book of Jasher and other texts mentioned by Moses, would be revealed at a later date.

"Of that ancient Word which existed in Asia before the Israelitish Word, I am permitted to state this new thing, namely, that it is still preserved there among the people who dwell in Great Tartary. In the spiritual world I have talked with spirits and angels from that country, who said that they have a Word, and have had it from ancient times; and that they conduct their Divine worship according to this Word, and that it consists solely of correspondences. They said, that in it also is the Book of Jasher, which is mentioned in Joshua (10:12, 13), and in 2 Samuel (1:17, 18); and that they have also among them the books called the Wars of Jehovah and Enunciations, which are mentioned by Moses (Num. 21:14, 15, and 27-30); and when I read to them the words that Moses had quoted therefrom, they searched to see if they were there, and found them; from which it was evident to me that the ancient Word is still among that people. While talking with them they said that they worshiped Jehovah, some as an invisible God, and some as visible. They also told me that they do not permit foreigners to come among them, except the Chinese, with whom they cultivate peaceful relations, because the Chinese Emperor is from their country; also that the population is so great that they do not believe that any region in the whole world is more populous, which is indeed credible from the wall so many miles in length which the Chinese formerly built as a protection against invasion from these people. I have further heard from the angels, that the first chapters of Genesis which treat of creation, of Adam and Eve, the garden of Eden, their sons and their posterity down to the flood, and of Noah and his sons, are also contained in that Word, and thus were transcribed from it by Moses. The angels and spirits from Great Tartary are seen in the southern quarter on its eastern side, and are separated from others by dwelling in a higher expanse, and by their not permitting anyone to come to them from the Christian world, or, if any ascend, by guarding them to prevent their return. Their possessing a different Word is the cause of this separation.”

In the Tibetan tradition, an object of some sort is usually required to represent the treasure text. Sometimes this object is revealed only to the treasure finder, while at other times it can be revealed to the public.
 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, DonBradley said:

.................................................

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?..................

I am under the impression that Taves is trying to conjure up a class of special documents, which exist only in "sacred time" and space, and her writings suggest a great interest in the paranormal and in siddhi -- from a phenomenological POV.

Taves, Ann, Religious Experience Reconsidered, A Building-Block Approach to the Study of Religion and Other Special Things (Princeton University Press, 2009).

Taves, Ann, “ History and the Claims of Revelation: Joseph Smith and the Materialization of the Golden Plates,” Numen, 61/1-2,  published form of her 2013 MHA address (which you cite above).

Taves, Ann, “The Power of the Paranormal (and Extraordinary): Review Essay,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063743/The_Power_of_the_Paranormal_and_Extraordinary_Review_Essay .

Taves, Ann, “Non-Ordinary Powers: Charisma, Special Affordances and the Study of Religion,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063747/Non-Ordinary_Powers_Charisma_Special_Affordances_and_the_Study_of_Religion .

Taves, Ann, “A Tale of Two Congresses: The Psychology Study of Psychic, Occult, and Religious Phenomena, 1900-1909,” 

Taves, Ann, “Where (Fragmented) Selves Meet Cultures: Theorising Spirit Possession,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063963/Where_Fragmented_Selves_Meet_Cultures_Theorising_Spirit_Possession .

Taves, Ann, “Fits, Trances, and Visions: Experiencing Religion and Explaining Experience from Wesley to James,” 

Taves, Ann, “Religious Experience,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5064004/Religious_Experience .

I heard her lecture years ago at the Claremont Grad School (where she was teaching at the time) on this same notion, and I had a hard time making any sense of it:  My impression is that she is flailing about in the dark.  We'd be better off reading Alexandra David-Neel, Magic and Mystery in Tibet (reprint University Books, 1958), or even studying transpersonal psychology.

Jan Shipps is far more direct in admitting that "There are mysterious, virtually unfathomable circumstances surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon." (Claremont Grad School, Oct 20-21, 2005, symposium on "Joseph Smith and the Prophetic Tradition:  A Comparative Inquiry").  Professor Shipps had some other comments at that time on the paradoxical nature of the Book of Mormon -- these are my brief notes:

Quote

There are more claimants to prophecy than there are actual followers: So there must be a faith community which takes the message seriously – a circular definition.
Authority comes from the faith community!  Even if the faith community actually came into being due to belief in the Book of Mormon.
Direct revelation vs a found text.
However, we haven’t the actual text, but only a translation dictated by the prophet.
The text canonized itself!  It wasn’t really necessary to have any group vote to make it canon.
Vogel and Brodie don’t understand this distinction, i.e., the differences of role for Joseph as seer early on and the role as messenger of God after formation of the Church.
Charisma is always in the eye of the beholder.
However, the believers and scoffers then, continue to exist now (just look at the web).
Circular justification.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Kenngo1969]

I wonder, what would, say, a Nibley have to say about Dr. Taves and her theories?  

[CV75]

8 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

 

I would conceptualize it as a faith-based "virtual" reality, or “seeing things that are not” and having “the audacity to say that they are” (both the seeing and the audacity being fueled by faith) accomplished by "translating" a record engraved on plates in one time period into the present through a facsimile medium (the plates manufactured by Joseph).

EDIT: In his book, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Yuval Noah Harari observes that “only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist,” and “not merely to imagine things, but to do so collectively.” Now this is a scientist speaking, but there are spiritual parallels (where “things that don’t really exist” are merely those things which are true but not seen).

Edited October 18, 2017 by CV75

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I wonder, what would, say, a Nibley have to say about Dr. Taves and her theories?  

Probably something irrelevant to this discussion.

[smac97]

On 10/17/2017 at 11:14 PM, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

I think Taves creates far more problems and questions than she solves.  In order for her hypothesis to work, there have to be quite a few lies.

• Joseph would seem to have been lying about Moroni altogether, since he was the principal means by which information about the location and the contents of the nonexistent plates.
• If the entirety of Joseph's Moroni narrative was not false, then big chunks of it were.  For example, Moroni (assuming he even existed and appeared to Joseph) lied about there being "a book deposited, written upon gold plates" (JS-H 1:34).
• Joseph would have lied about the vision in which he was shown the location of the plates (JS-H 1:42).
• Joseph would have lied about the physical location of the plates (on "a hill of considerable size," on its west side, under a "stone of considerable size" that was "thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner toward the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth," deposited in a stone box) (JS-H 1:51).
• Joseph would have lied about obtaining "a lever" which he "fixed under the stone" and "raised it up" to expose the stone box in which the plates were located (JS-H 1:52).
• Joseph would have lied about the composition of the stone box ("was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates") (JS-H 152).
• Joseph would have also needed to lie about, and fabricate "the other things" found with the plates (the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Liahona, the interpreters) (JS-H 1:52, 62; Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991), 63).
• Joseph would have lied about attempting to remove these plates to which he had been led (JS-H 1:53).
• Joseph would have lied about the event in which he returned to hill where the plates "were deposited" and the heavenly messenger "delivered them unto {him}" (JS-H 1:59).
• Joseph would have lied about returning the plates to Moroni (Smith, Lucy Mack (1853), Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations, p. 141).
• The Three Witnesses would have lied about an angel descending from heaven with the plates and showing the plates to them (The Testimony of Three Witnesses) (unless, I suppose, Taves proposes that an angel of God was in on the whole ruse).

We could go on forever like this.  Taves's theory utterly undermines the narrative about the plates.

Further, Taves does not seem to be addressing the reality of the Lehites:

Quote

Skeptics in my view have been too quick to jump from the assumption that there were no plates to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was either deluded or a fraud. In doing so, they sidestep the most interesting (and challenging) questions. For the sake of argument, I want to assume that there were no plates or at least no ancient golden plates and at the same time take seriously believers’ claim that Smith was not a fraud. If we start with those premises, then we have to explain how the plates might have become real for Smith as well as his followers. The challenge, however, is not just to explain how they might have become real for Smith, but how they might have become real for him in some non-delusory sense.

...

If we shift from viewing postulated created plates not as fake plates but as a simulation or enactment of ancient gold plates, we can compare Smith to a physician who prescribes a placebo...

So is she postulating that there were Nephites and Lamanites, etc.?  If so, then why resort to such a tortured, circuitous explanation that paints Joseph and the Witnesses as liars or deluded/insane?  Why formulate such a tortured theory about Joseph Smith fabricating "fake plates" as a stand-in for actual, real "ancient gold plates?"

And if not, then what is the point of theorizing about "fake plates" being a stand-in for "ancient gold plates?"  Are these postulated "ancient gold plates" totally unrelated to the translation Joseph presented?

Also, Don's friend seems to think that the ultimate resting place of the plates (in New York State) is significant in that it is very far away from the postulated situs of the Book of Mormon (Mesoamerica), and that Taves's thesis "could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York."  But Taves's theory seems like an unnecessary complex explanation for how the plates ended up in New York.  Moroni wrote that he "wander{ed} whithersoever {he} can for the safety of {his} own life" (Moroni 1:3).  He apparently wandered for around sixteen years, and so had plenty of time to travel the substantial distance between these two locations.  Michael Ash has published on this issue ("Challenging Issues, Keeping the Faith: How Moroni and the plates may have made it to Hill Cumorah"):

Quote

When Mormon died he passed his record on to his son Moroni. For the next several decades Moroni kept adding to the plates until, before his own demise, he buried them as his father had done. Some Mesoamerican-proponents have suggested that Moroni may have taken the plates to the New York hill as a resurrected being. The angel Moroni took the plates away from Joseph once the translation was finished, so it certainly seems reasonable that he — as an angel — could have deposited them near Joseph’s home as well.

It’s also possible that during the decades in which Moroni was wandering and fleeing from the Lamanites (Moroni 1:1-3) that he simply carried the 50-pound plates until he made his final home in upstate New York. It's interesting to speculate who and what Moroni might have encountered during such a trek.

Some may be tempted to think that walking several thousand miles would be an impossible, if not unlikely, journey. History, however, has given us other examples of a similar trek. In the mid-16th century, for example, English sailor David Ingram and several shipmates were marooned on a coast of Mexico. Ingram and a couple of dozen other sailors began a journey northward. Eleven months later Ingram and two of his comrades had reached Nova Scotia Canada (just a bit further northeast of Joseph Smith’s home land).

While Ingram embellished his travel stories with some tall tales (and possibly conflated some details from his travels in Africa and South America), most scholars accept the veracity of his claim that he actually traveled from Mexico to Canada in less than a year. To test the possibility of the journey 46-year-old Richard Nathan walked the same route in reverse in nine months from August 1999 until May 2000.

Other LDS scholars, such as Larry Poulsen, have suggested that Moroni may have taken a different path to New York. Thousands of years ago, the Native Americans developed footpath trails and trade routes that connected Mexico to what is now New Mexico (and possibly beyond). The main route was eventually developed by the Spaniards as the 1,600 mile "El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro" or “Royal Road of the Interior” which linked the Spanish colonial capital in Mexico City with its north frontier.

The El Camino was eventually instrumental in many phases of American history including the path used by the U.S. army to invade Mexico, which incited the Mexican-American war of 1846-1848. Today the pathway is paralleled by Interstate 25. The ancient trade route would have been no more than a foot trail in Moroni’s day but could easily have led him to the Santa Fe area.

A number of years ago LDS scholar H. Donl Peterson discovered two copies of a hand-drawn map (author unknown) in the LDS Church archives. The maps claim to depict the travels of Moroni. The previous owner of the map claims to have acquired the maps from early Latter-day Saint Robert ****son, who got it from William McBride and Andrew Hamilton, who got it from Joseph Smith.

The map lists the “land Bountiful” in Central America and claims to describe Moroni’s travels from Central America to Sand Hills Arizona, then on to Salt Lake, Adam-Ondi-Ahman, Nauvoo, Independence, Kirtland and then New York.

If the map is genuine and accurately reflects the thinking of early Latter-day Saints and/or Joseph Smith, it supports the theory that Moroni traveled Northward along what became the El Camino, continued traveling north-northwest to Arizona, and then worked his way north through Utah (where we learn that he dedicated the spot for the Manti Temple as well as other temple sites) and eventually found his way to upstate New York.

H. Don's Peterson's theories (and pictures of the maps described above) are available here: Moroni, the Last of the Nephite Prophets:

Quote

At a conference held in Ephraim, Sanpete County, June 25th, 1875, nearly all the speakers expressed their feelings to have a temple built in Sanpete County, and gave their views as to what point and where to build it, and to show the union that existed, Elder Daniel H. Wells said “Manti,” George Q. Cannon, Brigham Young, Jr., John Taylor, Orson Hyde, Erastus Snow, Franklin D. Richards, Lorenzo Young, and A.M. Musse said “Manti stone quarry.” I have given the names in the order in which they spoke. At 4 p.m. that day President Brigham Young said: “The Temple should be build on Manti stone quarry.” Early on the morning of April 25, 1877, President Brigham Young asked Brother Warren S. Snow to go with him to the Temple hill. Brother Snow says: “We two were alone: President Young took me to the spot where the Temple was to stand; we went to the southeast corner, and President Young said: “Here is the spot where the prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot; and if you and I are the only persons that come here at high noon today, we will dedicate this ground.” (Whitney 436)

That Moroni dedicated the Manti Temple site is one of the few statements the Brethren have made connecting a Book of Mormon figure with a specific current place and action. This aids us in documenting one of Moroni’s travels and priesthood assignments. Another reference happened when William McBride, patriarch from the Richfield Utah Stake, spoke at a prayer meeting in St. George in January 1881. After recalling many experiences from the Nauvoo period and quoting the Prophet Joseph Smith on many issues, Patriarch McBride referred to the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah; of Moroni dedicating the Temple site of what we now call St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland, and others we know not of as yet.

...

Several years ago, I came across two copies of a map in the Archives Division of the Historical Department of the Church relative to Moroni’s North American journeys (see Figures 1 and 2).

...

It is interesting to note that the brethren mentioned on these documents were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and they credited him with the notion that the travels of Moroni began in the land Bountiful, which was in Central America, and went through the western New York. Why Moroni took the route he did is still without answers. These men stated that the Prophet Joseph believed Bountiful is in Central America while the Hill Cumorah, the burial place of the plates, is in New York State.

...

The Plates of the Book of Mormon Are Buried

Sometime around AD 421, Moroni took the sacred plates, the breastplate, and the Urim and Thummim to the Hill Cumorah and buried them near the top of the hill in a stone box that he made for them...

These theories are far more . . . well, sensible as compared to the convoluted theory presented by Taves.  And Taves's theory is pretty much pure conjecture, whereas the foregoing theories are based on some (though certainly not ideal) evidence, and are far more plausible, in my mind, than Taves's.  And these theories don't require us to brand Joseph Smith a liar, either.  Taves, however much she wants to avoid doing so, presents a theory that necessarily paints Joseph Smith as profoundly dishonest or insane.  I appreciate her ingenuity, but her thesis seems unhelpful as to either a faithful or skeptical explanation for the Book of Mormon.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 2, 2020 by smac97

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

Probably something irrelevant to this discussion.

But it would be unlikely to be boring.

[Benjamin Seeker]

11 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

 

I think Taves' hypothesis allows for the metaphysical existence of the plates, meaning that the sacred creation of the plates by JS could represent some real spiritual analog of himself and his beliefs, which spiritual reality was tangible enough to enter the metaphysical psyche of others who saw the plates, Moroni, etc.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

 

I think we'd have to ask what purpose is there for the plates?  They weren't used to translate.  It hardly matters if the plates were ancient or were created by Joseph Smith, on that.  If he made them, then it could certainly be that his dreams and visions were less reality, the plates were necessary for him to bring some sort of purpose to his dreams and visions.  I think it all a distinct possibility. 

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think Taves' hypothesis allows for the metaphysical existence of the plates, meaning that the sacred creation of the plates by JS could represent some real spiritual analog of himself and his beliefs, which spiritual reality was tangible enough to enter the metaphysical psyche of others who saw the plates, Moroni, etc.

She doesn't postulate metaphysical plates (as in "highly abstract, subtle, or abstruse ... imaginary or fanciful").  The antonyms for "metaphysical" are:

Quote

• factual
• real
• obvious
• objective
• physical
• concrete
• material
• solid
• substantial

Taves, meanwhile, posits that Joseph Smith fabricated actual (as in tangible, physical, concrete, material, etc.) plates (emphases added):

Quote

This more active course, I am hypothesizing, involved creating what was in effect a representation of the plates, perhaps using sand and later tin or lead, as detractors claimed, in the knowledge that they would become the sacred reality the Smith family believed them to be only in so far as the angel made them so.  As such his representation of the plates, placed under the cloth or in the box, can be understood as representing or even co-creating the reality of the plates along a continuum of possibilities...

...

Comparison of the golden plates and the Eucharist allows us to consider the possibility that Smith viewed something that he made – metal plates – as a vehicle through which something sacred -- the ancient golden plates -- could be made (really) present. 

...

If we shift from viewing postulated created plates not as fake plates but as a simulation or enactment of ancient gold plates, we can compare Smith to a physician who prescribes a placebo...

What am I missing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Benjamin Seeker]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

She doesn't postulate metaphysical plates (as in "highly abstract, subtle, or abstruse ... imaginary or fanciful").  The antonyms for "metaphysical" are:

Taves, meanwhile, posits that Joseph Smith fabricated actual (as in tangible, physical, concrete, material, etc.) plates (emphases added):

What am I missing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm saying that I could see JS fabricated physical plates being a sacred object that represented metaphysical plates, a spiritual analog of JS' beliefs, potential, influence, etc. tangible enough to be perceived no others in their visions of the plates (3 wintesses), Moroni, etc.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I'm saying that I could see JS fabricated physical plates being a sacred object that represented metaphysical plates,

So did these "metaphysical" plates ever actually exist?  

Also, is this theory predicated on a Yes-The-Lehites-Actually-Existed, or a No-The-Lehites-Never-Actually-Existed framework?

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

a spiritual analog of JS' beliefs, potential, influence, etc. tangible enough to be perceived no others in their visions of the plates (3 wintesses), Moroni, etc.

Do you mean "perceived by others?"

Thanks for the clarifications.

-Smac

[Benjamin Seeker]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So did these "metaphysical" plates ever actually exist? 

First, I'll clarify that my ideas here are possibilities I'm exploring, but not wedded to. As far as the actual Nephites and Lehites or ancient gold plates existing, I'm at a pretty strong no on this one personally.

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Also, is this theory predicated on a Yes-The-Lehites-Actually-Existed, or a No-The-Lehites-Never-Actually-Existed framework?

Didn't exist framework

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Do you mean "perceived by others?"

Thanks for the clarifications.

-Smac

Yes! I'll fix that.

[clarkgoble]

13 hours ago, DonBradley said:

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

I confess I have a lot of problems with her thesis. It just doesn't seem like there's a lot of positive evidence for it. Also she'd really require not only manufacture of the plates but also the Urim & Thummim, breastplates and so forth. As Robert noted this seems a more broad analysis by her that relates to non-Mormon cases.

Of course the idea that there is a spirit realm more or less in the same place and operating in a manner analogous to matter is a common one. The very idea of an astral body is part and parcel of that metaphysical theory. Indeed I'd go so far as to argue it's still pretty much a theological commitment of Mormonism even if some of the assumptions of the broader culture are rejected. Where I think Taves gets in trouble is having little by way of positive evidence for her case. When I first read it I thought it was done primarily as an academic exercise to see if there was a third option between the faithful view and the fraudulent view. The delusional view always seemed much less plausible to me, although Taves probably makes the strongest case.

To answer your question though broadly speaking I think Taves case would work with real plates spiritually seen, real spiritual plates in an "astral plane," or delusional plates. So I don't think the model really requires real plates although it could well work with them. You could even say that later events like the Nauvoo temple are an example of that phenomena where Joseph was particular about the design claiming to have seen it in vision. My problem is that I think Joseph clearly presents the plates as the actual plates Moroni, not he, made.

[hope_for_things]

13 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

I'm a big fan of the Taves hypothesis, and her most recent book Revelatory Events, she expands on the earlier essay, if you haven't read it yet, I would highly recommend it.  

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_16?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ann+taves+revelatory+events&sprefix=ann+taves+revela%2Caps%2C229&crid=W7V7JT4R2WD5

If you haven't listened to this fine podcast interview with Dan Wotherspoon, Ann Taves and Michael Ferguson, its a great one and addressing her book specifically.  

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2017/07/25/403-406-revelations-of-joseph-smith-and-others-a-naturalistic-hypothesis/

As for your question, I think Ann's hypothesis offers a good explanation for how Joseph could have manufactured/materialized something that he called plates, in order to represent something that he had seen in vision.  This physical material object or objects could have included metal objects, or bricks, or sand or a combination of those substances. 

I like to look at the example of Joseph's claim to be translating a document written by John the beloved apostle that was supposedly located far away in a cave, but that he saw with his spiritual eyes and translated.  Did an actual document ever exist in the physical world?  We have no way of knowing.  Did it exist in Joseph's mind?  He claims it did and unless an actual document is found at some point in the future and matched up against Joseph's translation, we'll never know. 

The same applies to the plates, he saw them "by the power of God" in his mind's eye, and that is how he translated.  It was all through his mind.  The physical object likely wasn't viewed in the flesh by anyone (I know some believe the evidence for the witnesses is strong, but I find it ambiguous).  

Ultimately, the reality of something spiritual is strongly in the category of the subjective personal religious experience.  This doesn't make that thing less real to the person experiencing it.  

However, if we had the plates today and could test them and translate them through academic methods, we could confirm whether Joseph actually translated the plates and the accuracy of his translation.  Scholars have done this already with the Egyptian papyri.  

[DonBradley]

Smac,

I agree that in her attempt to deal with the plates there are a host of questions that Taves's hypothesis doesn't address regarding Joseph's narrative about the plates.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is what kind of reality people might accord to the plates under Taves's hypothesis. 

Don

[DonBradley]

12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

My research has focused on a similar idea in the Tibetan tradition. Texts are inscribed in a coded language by adepts and are cached either spiritually or physically. When the time is right a treasure finder is given instructions on when and how to reveal the cached text. The treasure finder is usually led to a sacred spot associated with the text and either retrieves a physical scroll or receives the text through a revelation of some sort. Taves mentions:

Rajah,

Fascinating! I had somehow overlooked this in Taves's paper. But this is the kind of thing I've had in mind.

Thanks,

Don

[DonBradley]

Bob,

Interesting re: Jan Shipps. She has also said before that she thinks Joseph may have found an actual artifact.

Don

[DonBradley]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Probably something irrelevant to this discussion.

Hahahahaha. Trudat.

[Analytics]

12 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Hey Friends,

I could use some thoughts.

Most of you are probably familiar with Ann Taves's hypothesis, published a few years ago, that Joseph Smith made a set of metal plates and then sanctified them to serve as the sacred golden plates. (This summation doesn't do the idea full justice. So, for those not familiar with it, you may want to read Taves's original paper: http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/B-6-Golden-Plates-Numen.pdf )

What I'm curious about is what kind of reality the plates might be thought to have under such a scenario. I'm assuming that most of those accepting this hypothesis (e.g., Ann Taves herself) would not think the plates had any underlying reality.

I was surprised when one friend, very much a believer in the Book of Mormon's historicity, responded favorably to Taves's idea, suggesting that it could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York (i.e., the plates were a material object in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith instantiated them in New York by a process like what Taves posits.) Apparently one can accept Taves's idea while still embracing the physical reality of the plates.

I'm curious what other views people hold, or could hold, on the reality of the plates under Taves's hypothesis. I can imagine people holding to Taves's hypothesis while attributing to the plates some sort of spiritual reality. But what kind of reality? Archetype? Platonic form? Book that actually exists in heaven? ...?

Have you encountered ideas like this? Or how would you conceptualize the plates if you held to a hypothesis like Taves's?

Note that the question isn't on the merits of Taves's hypothesis. She put it forward as a kind of experiment to see if it was possible to posit that Joseph Smith made the plates and yet was sincere in claiming they were genuine. The idea hasn't been fleshed out in specifics and hasn't been tested against such data as the witness testimonies or Joseph Smith's accounts of finding the plates.

I'm just curious what the interpretive possibilities are here: how might someone running with this idea understand the reality of the plates?

Don

 

 

I find Taves's theory quite fascinating. The evidence about what actually happened seems to fall into three categories.

1. First, there really was something underneath the cloth that people could heft but weren't allowed to actually see; something was there. 
    
2. Second, a lot of the details only make sense when interpreted in a spiritual, transcendent way rather than a physical, mundane way (e.g. the way the plates were translated. The way D&C 17 says that the three witnesses would "obtain a few" not only the plates, but also other ancient artifacts including the breastplate, the Urim and Thummin, the sword of Laban, and the Liahona and the way it says they would obtain a view of these things only by their own faith, which is the same way that Joseph Smith saw them; being shown this array of artifacts by an angel only makes sense if we are talking about this view being in the form of vision--not being shown them in a physical, tangible sense.)
    
3. Finally, Joseph seemed to be sincere; as Taves pointed out, he was genuinely relieved when the angel actually showed up to give the three witnesses a view of the plates. It seems he had been afraid that the angel wouldn't show and there wouldn't be anybody to confirm the validity of his visions--perhaps even to himself.

Given the totality of the evidence, Taves's theory explains it all better than anything else.

From this view, how could you understand the reality of the plates? We more or less know how they were translated, but how were they created, and where did the record come from? The plates could have been a literal, physical record just as the Book of Mormon describes. Since they weren't physically required in order to be translated, they were merely presented as a vision. 

On the other hand, perhaps the book was spiritually created? If you can read and translate a book with your spiritual eyes, maybe the book was originally written in such a way, where the references to the golden plates are a metaphor for other records or memories? Or maybe they were created in this spiritual way, but were meant as an allegory rather than a literal story.

That's what I got, FWIW.

[DonBradley]

27 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

***

Of course the idea that there is a spirit realm more or less in the same place and operating in a manner analogous to matter is a common one. The very idea of an astral body is part and parcel of that metaphysical theory. Indeed I'd go so far as to argue it's still pretty much a theological commitment of Mormonism even if some of the assumptions of the broader culture are rejected. ***

To answer your question though broadly speaking I think Taves case would work with real plates spiritually seen, real spiritual plates in an "astral plane," or delusional plates. So I don't think the model really requires real plates although it could well work with them. You could even say that later events like the Nauvoo temple are an example of that phenomena where Joseph was particular about the design claiming to have seen it in vision. My problem is that I think Joseph clearly presents the plates as the actual plates Moroni, not he, made.

Yeah. This is the kind of idea I had in mind.

Is the Lamb's Book of Life an actual material book? And if it is, would it make a difference it were composed of physical matter or of spirit matter?

Joseph obviously describes the plates as having been a physical object buried by Moroni. But I'm interested in these kinds of ideas within the bounds of Taves's hypothesis.

Don

[DonBradley]

4 minutes ago, Analytics said:

From this view, how could you understand the reality of the plates? We more or less know how they were translated, but how were they created, and where did the record come from? The plates could have been a literal, physical record just as the Book of Mormon describes. Since they weren't physically required in order to be translated, they were merely presented as a vision. 

On the other hand, perhaps the book was spiritually created? If you can read and translate a book with your spiritual eyes, maybe the book was originally written in such a way, where the references to the golden plates are a metaphor for other records or memories? Or maybe they were created in this spiritual way, but were meant as an allegory rather than a literal story.

That's what I got, FWIW.

Analytics,

Ah, very interesting. Good point about the plates not being physically necessary to the translation. And interesting spiritual option for the reality of the plates. It makes me think of the idea of the "Akashic record" that is supposed to record everything that's happened.

Thanks,

Don

[hope_for_things]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think Taves creates far more problems and questions that she solves.  In order for her hypothesis to work, there have to be quite a few lies.

• Joseph would seem to have been lying about Moroni altogether, since he was the principal means by which information about the location and the contents of the nonexistent plates.
• If the entirety of Joseph's Moroni narrative was not false, then big chunks of it were.  For example, Moroni (assuming he even existed and appeared to Joseph) lied about there being "a book deposited, written upon gold plates" (JS-H 1:34).
• Joseph would have lied about the vision in which he was shown the location of the plates (JS-H 1:42).
• Joseph would have lied about the physical location of the plates (on "a hill of considerable size," on its west side, under a "stone of considerable size" that was "thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner toward the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth," deposited in a stone box) (JS-H 1:51).
• Joseph would have lied about obtaining "a lever" which he "fixed under the stone" and "raised it up" to expose the stone box in which the plates were located (JS-H 1:52).
• Joseph would have lied about the composition of the stone box ("was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates") (JS-H 152).
• Joseph would have also needed to lie about, and fabricate "the other things" found with the plates (the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Liahona, the interpreters) (JS-H 1:52, 62; Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991), 63).
• Joseph would have lied about attempting to remove these plates to which he had been led (JS-H 1:53).
• Joseph would have lied about the event in which he returned to hill where the plates "were deposited" and the heavenly messenger "delivered them unto {him}" (JS-H 1:59).
• Joseph would have lied about returning the plates to Moroni (Smith, Lucy Mack (1853), Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations, p. 141).
• The Three Witnesses would have lied about an angel descending from heaven with the plates and showing the plates to them (The Testimony of Three Witnesses) (unless, I suppose, Taves proposes that an angel of God was in on the whole ruse).

We could go on forever like this.  Taves's theory utterly undermines the narrative about the plates.

If we put all this into the same context as Joseph's treasure seeking activities, no treasures were ever found, so Joseph "lied" about those too.  But I don't think you need to call what Joseph's doing as outright lying, and Taves doesn't say that either.  She's comparing Joseph's visionary experiences and creating something sacred in the physical world to how the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ in a very real sense for the believers.  Joseph's experience in vision could similarly become real through a process by which he took something physical to represent the visionary plates and made them sacred.  

All the stories about Moroni were later tellings anyhow, we don't have any contemporary stories about Moroni, so this was more a crafted narrative for the founding of the religion in the late 1830s than an actual account of specific events.  

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

So is she postulating that there were Nephites and Lamanites, etc.?  If so, then why resort to such a tortured, circuitous explanation that paints Joseph and the Witnesses as liars or deluded/insane?  Why formulate such a tortured theory about Joseph Smith fabricating "fake plates" as a stand-in for actual, real "ancient gold plates?"

And if not, then what is the point of theorizing about "fake plates" being a stand-in for "ancient gold plates?"  Are these postulated "ancient gold plates" totally unrelated to the translation Joseph presented?

Also, Don's friend seems to think that the ultimate resting place of the plates (in New York State) is significant in that it is very far away from the postulated situs of the Book of Mormon (Mesoamerica), and that Taves's thesis "could be used to explain how the plates were created in Mesoamerica but Joseph Smith recovered them in New York."  But Taves's theory seems like an unnecessary complex explanation for how the plates ended up in New York.  Moroni wrote that he "wander{ed} whithersoever {he} can for the safety of {his} own life" (Moroni 1:3).  He apparently wandered for around sixteen years, and so had plenty of time to travel the substantial distance between these two locations.  Michael Ash has published on this issue ("Challenging Issues, Keeping the Faith: How Moroni and the plates may have made it to Hill Cumorah"):

I don't think you're understanding her position.  I don't recall her saying anything about whether or not Nephites and Lamanites existed, maybe you can point me to that part of her essay.  

Also, I don't think Taves is concerned about how the internal arguments of the BoM narrative are reconciled with this idea of the plates existing in New York.  I think she wants to give an explanatory theory for how the plates came to be, that is a safe middle ground for discussion between believers and non-believers.